[Suggestion] Removing Team Kills from K/D

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Aloofgoof, Nov 17, 2014.

  1. Hosp

    Another Sundy problem is if, as it so often is, it's parked right up to rocks or a wall, sometimes a person will spawn in the tiny space between the sundy and wall. You'll either get pushed underground/into the wall (which doesn't happen much anymore), or get pushed into the sundy, which results in a roadkill TK much like the sliding.
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  2. LibertyRevolution

    Yes please:


    I really should just stop holding my fire and start shooting through the NC like they do to me...
  3. DrBash00

    I would suggest to add teamkills to the KD in negative Effect.

    Because you killed a TR (Imagine your faction) guy, it dont matters if it where YOU or your friend, it counts as one death.

    So if a tank driver decides to race into a group of allys, thats fine but he just died 8 times.

    And you should remove it from the KD of the one gettting killed.

    It would actually made the KD more valuable, and more showing also the "teamplay" of somebody.....

    I would go much further with it.... but for now, i would be fine if ally kills would add up negative to your KD.

    (And the best, i dont give a *** about kdr.... anymore, so it wont harm me ;-))
    • Up x 1
  4. Waffle Fartsparkle

    Better idea, how about less emphasis on K/D in general. It doesn't really measure how you are as a player, for even the most unskilled shooter can still contribute heavily to their faction
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  5. MrJengles

    I didn't say team kills would never happen. I said players would take more care because there would be another downside besides a weapons lock that only the very worst offenders actually encounter.

    Accidental team kills are rare (~3% to 5%) so it wouldn't change much to individual K/D. However, careless players with higher TK rates would be more impacted so relative K/Ds would be lower.

    This shows my point.

    Here is a player with a 1% TK rate, which is very low, and has been TKed 6% of the time.

    Yet Liberty has no reward for such a low TK rate, and those that did all the TKing have had no impact on their K/D. It is assumed that Liberty was at fault for being in the way and the team killers did nothing wrong.

    Currently we have a system that says dying to teammates is bad, but killing teammates isn't bad unless you do it so much you get weapons locked.

    A logical system would say either:

    A) Some team kills are accidental and happen despite efforts not to, we don't know which they are so assume that they all are. Neither killing NOR dying affects K/D, it purely tracks enemy involvement.

    B) Some team kills are intentional and avoidable, we don't know which they are.

    However, we do know that players who are very careless in their friendly fire, or intentionally team kill, have higher TK rates than average, and careful players have lower TK rates. We also know that players who mindlessly run into the line of fire get TKed more often, likewise, players that are careful about their positioning die to teammates less often.

    Therefore, while including TKs in the calculation reduces everyone's K/D, relatively it affects the careless players more than the careful ones. This would be best shown as:

    (Kills - Team kills) / Deaths

    Where all deaths count.

    What we have currently is a system that can't decide which it wants to be. K/D isn't purely against enemies, nor does it penalize team killing - only being team killed.
  6. Problem Officer

    You're missing my point.
    That if I wanted to lower your KDR, I'd follow you around and jump in your damage over and over.
    Intentionally/idiotically getting TK'd is a thing, we agree, but it is not a rare or uncommon thing.
    Players jumping in front of vehicles and "surfing" is even more common than murder-drivers.
    No idea where you got "Accidental team kills are rare (~3% to 5%)", are you God?

    Punishing or even displaying teamkills is impossible to arrange without colossal outrage,
    edit- I mean not like currently, but if it was easily searched and compared.
    as we don't have nanomachines reading our minds yet. *glances at google*

    Applying even more penalty than weapons lock merely introduces an exploitable system
    and more things to complain about.
    The most that can be done with FF enabled is removing TK influence on K/D entirely.
  7. MrJengles

    I was pointing out that accidents (as you mentioned) happen to everyone so including their effect on K/D isn't necessarily wrong.

    Intentionally team killing people (such as revenge TKing, as you mentioned) in addition to accidental team kills would decrease your K/D further than those who don't.

    Anyone deliberately jumping in front of team mates bullets until they earn a death will already lower their K/D further than those who don't. So that situation is already punished. If they do it consistently they're likely to get reported.

    You can list situations where people can abuse things on either side of the gun. Seeing as you can't design a system that knows who is at fault or who is being careless (if anyone is) then the only logical systems are:

    • Ignore all the events; or
    • Count all the events, from everyone's perspective

    What we currently have is a system that counts half the events and is entirely biased against those who are team killed, yet plays it safe for those who do the team killing.

    Am I right that you don't want team kills to have any impact on K/D at all? If so, you would be opting for the first system which is not how it currently works as dying to team mates does lower your K/D. Right now, players can troll you by team killing and YOU will have your K/D punished, not them.

    As for the 3% to 5%, this is what we have stat trackers for. Admittedly, I can't give any hard data, but I'm going off of the http://planetside.tk/ site which was posted here a couple times. Most of the people I look up appear to be averaging either side of roughly 5%. Plus, while the stats site doesn't give the average TK rate, it does label the brackets with "mostly pristine" etc. and also seems to consider roughly 5% average.

    If anyone can be more accurate, feel free.

    However, my point wasn't the exact figures, only that the numbers are low enough that deciding whether to add or remove TKs is going to have little effect compared to, say, playing the game better which could see a two, three or more fold increase.
  8. Kislany

    What is this crap about TKing someone for being in the spawn room anyway? To those TKers: Who are you to tell anyone what to do and punish them if they don't do it? Are you paying our memberships or something? That's just so wrong on so many levels...

    Today I was in a heavy battle at one of the towers. At some point I had to take a short break, so I left my char in the spawn room (which I thought it's the safest place to be from enemies). I come back 3 minutes later from my break with a sandwich in my hand, only to see the death screen. I send the guy a message asking him why did he TK me. He writes back - because he saw me idling and wanted me to get moving.

    These guys SHOULD be punished - and yes, a negative KD would be very welcome.

    /rant over
  9. MonnyMoony

    The thing is - you spawning at the same camped spawn room - running out of the shields and getting farmed is....to some people....as pointless as spawn room warrioring.

    Would it be right for somebody to TK you for doing this - rather than spawning at the next base, pulling a tank, ESF or Sundy and trying to outflank the attackers.

    You play the game how you want to play it - others should be allowed to do the same.

    I have been TKed a few times in the spawn room before now. I walk away from my PC for a few seconds to take a piss or grab another beer - and some d#ckhead takes exception and TKs....why? I have even been TKd while logged into a terminal, configuring my Max in order to push out of the spawn room.
  10. Hosp

    You assume my doing that is at the time the spawnroom is camped. When I explicitly state "if there's enough time between each spawn". That would indicate I don't immediately die. That would also indicate the spawnroom isn't yet camped. And if someone is just standing at the shield shooting outward (not standing at a terminal) after I pass them by a few times...pretty good indicator they're gonna get a couple rounds either way.

    Like it or not, I do play the game how I want to play it, and others are allowed to do the same. That includes some TKs. And that's not, for lack of a better term, illegal under the current ruleset. You can even check out my TKs and compare them to yours if you feel I ought be banned for it. I took flak from Ronjhan for speaking my mind on the subject. But he has more TKs than I do. What about you? http://planetside.tk/

    End of the day I'm saying what many (non-carebears) are thinking. And I'm taking the slings and arrows for it. We all share the same sandbox and the same ruleset. I'm just as much liable as anyone else may be for TKs. I'm also much more careful in battle, and much more judicious when I purposely do it. Doesn't make it right, I 100% agree there, but you can do the same to me and I would expect as much. The difference is, I'm going to shrug it off while carebears are gonna whine and moan about their circumstances.
  11. MonnyMoony

    Why though - what difference does it make to you, the fact that they are stood in spawn. It's not like each spawn room can only accommodate so many people - and their being there is taking a slot that could be better utilised by somebody else.

    There are genuine reasons people may be in a spawn room for a significant period. Toilet break, taking a phone call, getting a beer etc. Some of these reasons may not be sufficiently distracting to disengage somebody from the game entirely.

    If you think their tactics are genuinely wrong - then why not try and educate them instead of TKing which achieves nothing.

    My TK rate is 2.32% (which includes a couple of recent retaliation TKs)....yours? I never intentionally TK unless it's in retaliation for a blatant TK against me. I don't even go after accidental TKs who don't apologize - s#it happens after all.

    TKing people for sitting in spawn achieves nothing - except perhaps massaging an over inflated sense of ego on behalf of the TKer.
  12. Aloofgoof

    While I understand the logic you are trying to use but this is based on a very clear misunderstanding. You seem to think that the "rule" regarding TKs is only broken if you reach weapons lock. That the game condones or accepts minimal TKs, whether they are intentional or not, as long as you don't reach that point. This is obviously not the case. The "rule" is that you aren't supposed to TK, which is why the game gives you warnings when you hit your own team and there is a weapons lock in the first place. The reason why they can't just weapon lock after a single TK is because they have no mechanism in place for distinguishing between intentional and accidental TKs. The buffer of being allowed a few TKs before the weapon lock is simply a consequence of practicality rather than proof that you have some "right" to commit those TKs.

    Lastly, many have and will agree with you that a person should be free to do/play how they want but you have to draw the line when it starts to affect other people. There are reasons why people in real life have freedoms but there are also restrictions against things like murder.
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  13. Hosp

    3.8%. most people are over 5%...and those are unintentional. But if that's true good for you. Many on forum don't use their actual game name so as to not be scrutinized.

    Whats wrong with redeploying and sitting at the spawn screen if you're afk? But that only covers AFK people, whom likely will not be killed by me, so try not to assume I do it. Direct you hate towards other less tolerant TKers.

    The difference it makes? Ego has nothing to do with it. If it happens enough 1 of 3 things I expect will happen. They will leave the game. They won't camp the spawn. Or they'll keep doing it.

    Everything else has been nerfed with enough people crying. Perhaps the spawns will be if enough people cry. So please, keep up the banter. Every thread about being TKd, in general or in the spawn room, is potential for change. Though I expect this thread be locked soon for being so far derailed now.

    Good thing this isn't real life.
  14. TraatAdmiral

    Nobody making any kind of effort unintentionally TKs 5% of the time. My experience is that people who avoid teamkilling are more often at 1-2%. I think the final judgement here still has to come down to the effect this has on the total amount of fun being had in the game. Teamkilling somebody while they're fighting from a spawn is unlikely to make them change their behavior. A rousing speech in proximity chat might, but a shotgun in the back? I doubt it. So even if having these people run out alongside you would increase your fun, that probably isn't what's going to happen. Instead you've decreased the fun they're having without substantially increasing your own. That makes this a bad move.

    As for this oisk about 'carebears', well, again. If that's what the majority wants, that's what will increase total fun and therefore what's best for the game.
  15. Hosp

    That's what 2-Fort is for.

    So here's what it comes down to;
    Everyone is trying to convince everyone else that TKing is wrong. But everyone knows TKing is wrong.
    Why doesn't everyone try to convince themselves that there's some amount of personal responsibility involved with avoiding TKs because they play in a game that allows it?
    And rather than try to get the devs to pad your stats for you, why not get them to fix/incentivize things to would avoid TKing to begin with?
  16. TraatAdmiral

    If you shoot somebody else on purpose, it's not their fault. You're being a dick, and it's totally on you. Don't try to convince yourself they deserve it somehow, because they don't. You're a griefer, even if you think you have noble goals.
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  17. Hosp

    Ok I'm an (expletive). So what stops me from killing them? Your morals? Right and Wrong? Not about being noble. It's about avoiding the inevitable. I can live with myself for TKing friendly pixels. But where is your solution to the problem? To tell me not to? C'mon, think dangit. You're not going to convince me (The devil's advocate for TKers), but the problem will persist w/o a solution.
  18. Waffle Fartsparkle

  19. John_Aitc

    As a CQC Infil, I purposely put myself in some bad spots. When I am trying to knife someone, it is usually my fault for getting in the way of my ranged Faction friendlies.

    I would like it removed from my stats, but in my situation, I created the problem and deserve the consequences.

    I'll be the same is true for LAs who go on C4 flights while friendly rockets and tanks are shooting at the same enemy asset.
  20. Hosp

    That is a good, albeit temporary idea, as that then requires someone to camp the spawn room. I was thinking something more permanent people could get behind to get the devs to fix. Like Revamping spawnrooms. Making kills through shields not count or award score. (or did that happen and I didn't notice?)