Remove stealth

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Warspine, Aug 2, 2020.

  1. Somentine

    1. You're going to be in the range where you don't want to be slowly moving and hipfire (even without laser) is going to be accurate.

    2. You're missing the point. You're describing a situation where you know there is an infil in the immediate area, are safe enough to not only pull out a pistol but also search for them with the darklight. If the infil decided to shoot you before you can flush them out, or before you can swap, or before you can turn on your attachment, it's useless.

    3. I mean, we can compare stats and playtime, argue over how good our eyesight is, or even about which graphics settings makes which situations easier/harder to spot infils all day.

    4. See pt 2.

    And ESFs show on the minimap, and are loud as hell. You can stay in doors. You can look up for them when running between cover. They're still busted.

    Recon darts can be shot from far away, stakers don't have to de-cloak, and an infil can kill you before their de-cloak renders on your screen or even hear their sounds/shots.

    I mean, if you don't think even being chunked for half your health during a fight (ads makes you slow), even by garbage infils, idk what to say.

    Stalkers really aren't a big deal because they lack the ammo and sustain to do real damage in anything that isn't a small fight. It is still bad gameplay.

    Simple movement doesn't negate it. Complex movement -can-. You don't have to hit all body or all HS. You can get hit by 2-3 of each.

    I agree, stealth is a tool that excels at both defensive and offensive play.

    They're pretty synonymous, but even if you argue that, I would hardly call using an incredibly strong tool that denies one of the most important senses 'out-played'.

    No class ever wants to 1v2+, you don't even want to 1v1. Heavy isn't designed to take on more than 1 player at a time. It's designed to take on multiple 1v1s in succession.
  2. Somentine

    Post your character.
  3. Campagne

    1. All pistols (except the Showdown, glad I bought the WORST piece of **** I could've) have an ADS movement multiplier of 0.75x, meaning movement is faster while aiming than most primaries. Faster than other guns and more accurate than hipfire.

    2. Under what other circumstances will you be using a darklight if you feel it's such a huge disadvantage? Pistols are pretty good with accuracy, switching weapons is not a good idea in a firefight. Once more turning on and off the light is instant and doesn't impact a direct fight. I personally just leave it on almost all the time because chances are someone is going to spot me before they see the light anyway, as the only reasons for me to have my pistol out are if I'm looking for a cloaked enemy or if my primary is empty. If the former I want the light and if the latter I can turn it off if I want.

    3. ...But? And? What's the argument? Sure we could, but at the end of the day infiltrators aren't invisible unless really far away.


    ESFs only appear when within range, or when spotted. Stealth, the most popular and common defence slot, negates auto-spotting entirely. Their engines don't sound as clear and distinct as an infiltrator cloak and don't tell everyone around them what state they're in. Most of the game world is outdoors. They fly faster than anything else can move and can appear in the sky in at a moment's notice. They also can use cover and tree foliage to hide in the sky, which in and of itself is massive.

    Darts don't pass through walls which indicates position and directionality, but don't shift the goalposts here. Darts show the presence of an infiltrator. Stalkers have to decloak to do literally anything and can't move very far very fast without decloaking. I've literally never experienced this once, but regardless latency is not unique to them and any chump with a corner and a pump-action could supposedly do the same.

    Average player accuracy in a direct firefight is still quite low because players move as they aim and fire. Moving at half speed is enough for all players to miss some shots with automatic weapons. Moving around at normal speed against a bolt-action makes the player too difficult to hit for the majority of players. Moving in a random pattern means even a bodyshot is hard. firing even near them throws off their aim because of screenshake, which kinda messes with a high-powered scope. It's next to no threat with most players. Believe me, I know. :p

    I disagree. Big fights give sound and visual cover and stalkers can make the most of ammunition. But regardless, they can't do anything to a player who doesn't make himself a target. Take a Magshot or a Beamer or something like that and try to kill an MLG l33t Pro HA with an Orion or MSW-R or whatever without help in a 1v1. It's not gonna happen, not even worth trying.

    Simple movement doesn't guarantee survival, but it does greatly improve he probability of surviving. It increases the time the victim has to react and costs the shooter more of his magazine and increases his CoF. Headshots will be too difficult to chain and with attentive reflexes the victim has a good chance. Stilling still is three or four to the dome, game over.

    Where counter-argument? This is like if I just said "I agree, you're wrong."

    No, they're not. Dumb people can still out-gun and out-maneuver smarter players. Implying failure means the player was stupid is disingenuous. But regardless, stealth (in this instance at least) requires effort and skill to effectively utilize. If it was mindless and easy there would be less heavies and HE tanks and more infils.

    The heavy assault has literally every advantage possible for fighting 1v2+ engagements. Any class can do 1v1 after 1v1 with healing and reloading in between. It's a lot easier to kill two players at once with an overshield and a 100-round magazine than as an engineer with 30 rounds in his carbine and no direct combat abilities.
  4. TrojonKing 1st

    Show and tell. I have two active on this account us server 1. TheHighDuke BR118. eu server 2. CovidXIX BR 48 or 50 started march (not played this one in a couple of weeks I think) . But asking that question changes nothing the fact remains that the infiltrator is not overpowered by having the cloak. Plus your arguments are all about lack of skill and your inability to utilize your equipment or your surroundings.
  5. Somentine

    And I say it's that players like you, who aren't good at the game and undervalue strong tools/weapons because they can't use them effectively, makes having any sort of debate/argument moot because you're ignorant.

    I normally don't bring stats into arguments unless people continually insult or bring up 'skill' this or 'skill' that, like you have consistently been doing, for example:

    The truth is, you're literally fodder. Of course you don't think infil is strong because you can't aim and can't kill jack all. Ironically, your best aim and KDR IS with stalker, putting your normal garbage aim of ~15% to up to ~28-30%, simply because you can take your time to aim and get easier kills using a really strong tool.

    Here is just one of mine, for comparison:
  6. TrojonKing 1st

    Yup I am cannon fodder and a **** player . I totally agree but I'm not the one moaning about being killed by a unskilled player like ME. Yes you have way better stats then me with 7.08 KDR for ghost which make's me ask why are your moaning about not being able to kill infill's? You should know the counter's??? . And Stat's mean nothing on the battle field. please tell us your player name just so I can see how many time's I have killed you. As anyone can copy 'n' past.
  7. Somentine

    1. Yeah, the problem is that unless the infil is a potato, they are going to be lining up your head while you are still searching. .75 is good, but in that range you want to be moving as fast as possible. The amount of times RNG hipfire dicks you is minimal enough in that range. If it was just some normal dude sitting in a corner, sure ADS, but you don't know exactly where this infil is and that gives them the advantage in a number of ways.

    2. lol, the only situation in my first post - to kill an annoying stalker that you know is there. Pistols are good, in-fact, they are some of the best CQC weapons because of (most of) their high alpha dmg and quick-knife combos.

    3. Not really an argument, was more trying to say that your experience and impression seems to differ vastly from mine, and going back and forth like this isn't getting anywhere; is there any quantifiable way for either of us to a point?

    4. You will sit down and eat your veggies or so help me.

    Any infils have very similar attributes. They don't auto spot, they aren't easily seen, not only does stalker not need to leave stealth at all, but the stealth sound can easily be drowned out in larger fights, and in smaller fights you can still be insta-gibbed by them even knowing they are near. They can appear on your screen in a moments notice, and they can hide in all sorts of places.

    I'm not. The game itself tells you how many people (roughly) are in a hex. Even if it isn't an infil, you know there is enemies - darts (if they even use them) can be fired from nearly anywhere and unless you've seen it pop-up and the identifying cloak sound, you aren't going to know where the infil is.

    Stalker cloak works as any other cloak when they move, but you never have to leave it if you stop and let it regen (while still stealthed). Meaning they can get into a position without ever alerting you by sound. Clientside with OHK weapons is a separate issue (ohk weapons in general, i'd say), but i'm a little curious how you've never experienced being killed before being able to react to an infil, even a bolter?

    Most miss, yeah. The problem is when you peak, see one target, engage that target only to lose half your health to some br 3 bolter who was invisible on your screen a second beforehand.

    Big fights do that for all infils. Stalker just generally doesn't have to power to really influence those fights. While smaller fights allow them to pick people off (and losing 1 or 2 out of 12 players is a big deal).


    Oh, positioning is a significant aspect of winning fights. The easier time you have getting into an advantageous (or disengaging and returning to one) the better. I'd call that both an offensive and defensive tool, but if you don't want to agree, okay.

    I didn't imply that. I said directly that using an incredibly strong/op tool the way it was designed to be used is in no way out-smarting or out-playing another person, especially one who has made no real mistake. As for skill, stats show that infils are consistently higher KDR, both overall, and when looked at individually to their own stats. Now, that isn't everything, and a valid main counter argument is KPM and impact on fights, but it is definitive proof that infils have something that makes them easier and safer to play.

    They are better at it, but they aren't designed for it. Even doing simple math, take 1 heavy against 2 of any class. Add the health and dps of their starter weapons. Even if they were, you still never want to be taking damage from multiple sources.
  8. Somentine

    So let's get this straight, I can use the tool to a way better degree than you can, and i'm telling you (who can't) that it has issues with being too strong, and i'm wrong? lol. There is no real counter to bolters, for example. They dictate nearly every engagement, and you can only react to them.

    I don't play EU, i'm Emerald. I'll PM you my chars.
  9. Campagne

    1. Simple movements help as always. It takes a lot more effort to keep the sights on an opponent's head while he's moving around and looking for the infil. Trying to stay hidden while moving and aiming at the enemy is a lot more than most players can realistically handle, and will being to suffer for it.

    2. If you know he's there then why wouldn't you want the light? :p

    3. That's fair. I don't think there is any clear way to measure the visibility of them in-game. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

    4. I'm gonna eat candy for dinner and you can't stop me!

    The sound carries over longer distances than vehicle engines and in order to actually kill quickly they need headshots compared to a Banshee's splash kills. They're also much slower and must "physically" travel to the enemy or locations.

    The population counts don't indicate classes. Darts can be fired anywhere within sight, but if they hit walls and objects indoors there would be a limited possibility of origin points.

    They can get into a position without decloaking, but that takes a long time because of how slow the cloak recharges while active.

    I don't know, it's just never happened. I've always seen other players decloak before they fire. Just not an issue, I think.

    While that's not fun, it's a product of of 1v2 rather than strictly an infiltrator issue. Could just as easily be a guy on a roof or behind a box, or around a corner.

    You didn't, the phrasing itself does. "Out-smarted" implies one was smarter than the other, which isn't necessarily true or false purely because of beating or losing to someone in a videogame.

    I'd argue somewhat the opposite; Infiltrators are safer when used with effort and skill but aren't easier than other infantry. Run-and-gun with a HA & auto-shotgun, that's easy. Sneaking around with only a pistol and not a great chance in a direct fight is pretty difficult comparatively.

    I don't really agree, obviously. Yeah, going against more than one enemy at once is a bad situation, but only the heavy has the resources to really manage it effectively. They stand a chance. Even if it's not great, it's a lot better than other classes including infiltrators.
  10. Somentine

    lol that's my point as in my first post. Running around in a firefight looking for an infil is a bad idea, even with a flashlight. Having the flash light on at all times is bad because it gives away your position easily (like rounding corners for example). Having it off makes it useless. On top of it all, it takes the spot of the laser, which is one of the most important attachments for nearly all guns.

    It really only works when you have relative safety (preferably with another player or more, so that even if he de-cloaks and kills you, chances are someone else will kill them) against a stalker (as other infils can't chill in cloak anyway) that you already know is very close by.

    Don't quote me on this, but i'm pretty sure the sound of aircraft travels farther than infil cloak sounds, they are just usually significantly father away anyway.

    Also, infil sound travels about 100m, or roughly an entire biolab... but even being a CS player and using headsets, I can't recall every actually hearing an infil that far away even in an empty bio, and the more sounds that drown it out naturally lower that further (possibly ducking some of it?).

    Yeah, infil to esf obviously isn't meant to be a direct comparison, and if ESFs were more numerous I can almost guarantee they'd finally be nerfed into oblivion. A good example is that one 3v3 match where air (and good players in those aircraft) played such a massive role that they absolutely stomped the zergfits.

    Yes, but those are places that you can expect it from. An infil can be pretty much anywhere, and it is unrealistic to expect that 1v2 from anywhere, where as you can limit (or have teammates cover) those places when it isn't an infil.

    I'm pretty sure I mentioned that there is skill in using cloak somewhere, just that the 'amount', I guess you could call it, isn't really comparable for a number of reasons.

    Ignoring generic skills you need for ivi play, if you play infil like you would a heavy it's not going to work well. Heavy is designed to be that 1v1 direct fight class. You can argue that makes it less skillful because you don't really have to play to a diff strategy, but unless that heavy is obscenely strong at ivi play, they're going to have a bad time (and that is seen with how many players struggle to maintain even 1kd).

    The best way for those players to impact fights is by being a support role, or playing a class that makes it easier for them to get advantageous positions (LA/infil), which gives them better chances at getting kills. Every class wants to be in this position, don't get me wrong, but infil being able to do it far more easily (and in some bases LA) by using even a single tool of their kit is what is so powerful.

    If this tool wasn't easy to use, and didn't give such an advantage, you would see infils running consistently lower KD.

    Definitely, but they aren't designed to be able to win that 1v2. The numbers just don't add up. I guess this is just semantics now.
  11. Campagne

    But not if you only ADS. :p Regardless, it's a safer idea to only focus on looking for a cloaked enemy when the player is certain he's safe from other enemies for the moment, as you said.

    I'm not confident they do, but again I suppose we don't have an easy and effective way to measure that in-game.

    It's definitely a lot more realistic to hear the cloaking when it's closer, but it should still be loud enough to know there's an infiltrator around when he's close enough to be a potential threat.

    I wish, but the devs. sure seem to love their aircraft. The frustration is a pretty close comparison at least.

    Fair enough for the rest!
    • Up x 1
  12. WinterAero

    I see this drivel is still going.

    Infiltrator works as intended 'hurr durr nerf it I'm mad cos bad'. If I can play as a crummy engineer and deal with them, I can't imagine what HA mains are capable of. People like you are no great loss and the game is old. Take a hike.

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