That's just too much ignorant ******** in 1sentence. I laughed so hard i almost killed myself. Do you even play the game man ? LMG best CQC weapons....omg really ? Higher dps than other weapons.....lol wtf ??? I'm glad such ignorant imbeciles like you don't balance the game....damn, sometimes DEVs must have some fun reading the forums (well assuming they read it ofc).
Ignoring shotguns heres math for VS LMGs and SMGs. including NS Orion VS54 ROF 750/60=12.5 RPS 12.5*143=1787.5 DPS 143*50=7150 DPM Lasher X2 (these numbers include indirect damage assuming direct hits) ROF=333/60=5.55 RPS 230*5.55=1276.5 DPS 230*75=17250 DPM Flare VE6 ROF 577/60=9.61 RPS 9.67*167=1604.87 DPS 167*75=12525 DPM NS-15M2 ROF 625/60=10.41 10.41*143=1488.63 DPS 55*143=7865 DPM Pulsar LSW ROF 698/60=11.63 11.63*143=1663.56 DPS 143*75=10725 DPM SVA-88 ROF 698/60=11.63 11.63*143=1663.56 DPS 143*75=10725 DPM Ursa 550/60=9.16 9.16*167=1530.83 DPS 75*167=12525 DPM VX29 Polaris 652/60=10.86 10.86*143=1553.93 DPS 100*143=14300 DPM SMGS Sirius SX12 845/60=14.08 RPS 14.08*125=1760 DPS 50*125=6250 DPM Eridani SX5 750/60=12.5 12.5*143=1787.5 DPS 143*25=3575 DPM MKV Suppressed 779/60=12.98 12.98*125=1622.91 DPS 30*125=3750 DPM NS-**** Poor Defense Weapon. 750/60=12.5 12.5*125=1562 DPS 30*125=3750 DPM Comparing the LMGs and SMGs. As we can see, all of the LMGs have a higher damage per magazine. Only the Lasher was lower than all the SMGs in DPS, however. Only the Sirius and Eridani are able to kill a full HP heavy assault with maxed out NMG in a second. Having twice the ammo capacity and either the same or better DPS and always more DPM is better, along with the fact you have 1.7 time the health of everyone else with maxed out shields. For laughs and because i dont have anything to do tomorrow lets move on to TR LMG and SMG comparison. Because i am lazzy however im only including the T9 CARV, MCG, MSW-r, and maybe one or two others. T9 CARV ROF 750/60=12.5 RPS 12.5*143=1787.5 DPS 143*100=14300 DPM MCG 800/60=13.33 13.33*143=1906.66 dps 143*100=14300 dpm MSW-R ROF 750/60=12.5 RPS 12.5*143=1787.5 DPS 143*50=7150 DPM Honestly not sure why anyone uses the MSW-R, it seems like a nerfed T9. Seems like double the magazine size if worth the longer reload. I digress. SMGs Hailstorm 800/60=13.33 13.33*1666.25 dps 125*60=7500 dpm Armistice 896/60=14.93 14.93*125=1866.66 dps 125*30=3750 DPM MKV Suppressed 779/60=12.98 12.98*125=1622.91 DPS 30*125=3750 DPM NS-**** Poor Defense Weapon. 750/60=12.5 12.5*125=1562 DPS 30*125=3750 DPM Again, only the T1 SMG can kill a full HP max NMG heavy in less than one second we see only the T1 SMG can match up to these three guns in DPS. They all have higher DPM too. When you look at whats pretty much the same DPS in 10m, much better at 15m/20m (bordering mid range but still cqc, at least defined by size of rooms/hallways in most buildings) Coupled with overshield andpretty good mid range damage, pretty good accuracy and rof in general and massive magazine sizes you have one of the best cqc-mid range classes with the LMG, not even counting various attachments you can put on LMGs that will affect performance, the fact LMGs are free, and the fact that theyre very versatile im comparison to a 6m max damage range on t2 smgs and a 10m on the rest with pretty bad dropoff on most of the t1s, where youre pretty much forced into x1/x2 scopes SPA and extended mags/laser sight.
mswr is very good weapon. and with additions it better than carv. also , isn't brrt with mcg increases rof ?
Hm.. i suppose you didnt accounted for headshots coz they break everything As mainly a heavy with medicore skills i have to say smgs arent so op as it seems (maybe for some MLGs they are) had a lot of face to face encounters with other heavies caring LMGs and it always was very close call (for me or them ) Tho, i also met a lot of Medics who dropped me with Cyclers even tho i had overshield on and had a jump on them, they just turn and splat im dead and they are still green. Basically, statistics aint good for arguments like that especialy that PS2 isnt supposed to be 1:1 game. Some guns are a bit better some worse, MLGs can still drop you with a spoon so clench yer butt and charge in hoping for the best (or sneak and shoot rank 100 whiners in the *** they sometimes go on reaaaaaly funny rants with whispers afterwards )
Cool story brah. Now, compare the VS LMG's, like the Orion, with the H-V45 (+SPA, for some extra kill-range), or the Terminus VX-9; Carbine wise with the Serpent, or the VX6-7. As a bonus, consider hipfire. -> LMG's are the worst CQC weapons. A commisioner can kill quicker if scoring a headshot.
LMGs are some of the best because of the fact that they have twice the ammo (give or take) of all other weapons, are decent at midrange, and are combined with a free HP buff. Honestly if i could take an LMG on my light assault or infiltrator i probably would for the mid range capabilities. With assault rifles however i think theyre pretty on par, ARs are more accurate and can have a higher ROF/better distance sometimes but their mags are small.
The problem is that the game revolves around capturing bases.. so a lot of fighting happens within the effective range of carbines. In addition, LMG's are in fact, not so accurate. The Carv: 0.4 ADS moving. 4.5 hipfire moving. The Trac-5: 0.3 ADS moving, 2 hipfire moving. Standing still and sending 100 bullets downrange is just waiting to get sniped. Even for enemy full-auto it makes you a prime target. Now, we weren't discussing mid-range at all: you said: LMG's are the worst CQC weaponry because of the poor hipfire. They are outclassed by assault rifles and carbines. Carbines are designed for close range encounters, they are designed to have less effect at range. Of course an LMG is better at long range. But on the flip side, assault rifles and carbines can offer better CQC performance. Because of the good hipfire, the low recoil, SMG's make a good case for being better for CQC too. For NC at least, the Cyclone > NC LMG's for CQC. You mention CQC DPS: So for NC, in terms of maximal CQC DPS, the order goes: GD-7-F (Carbine) Cyclone (SMG) GR-22 (AR) -> Where do you want to put shotguns? On top for 1-shot potential? "Eh", put em where you want. The Jackhammer: is it a seperate entry? What about Max shotguns? -> Now, LMG's. (Anchor) Below, we have sidearms. For TR, we have: Cycler TRV. (AR. Although TAR makes a very good case due to 0.75 movement ADS & better hipfire) Lynx (Carbine) SMG (armistice.. just a bit more than a Carv or MSW-R) Shotguns go where? Mini-chaingun: max is 800 rpm, 143 dmg.. but I don't put it higher because of the spin-up. MSW-R. Side-arms below.
To be fair the MCG has the BRRT attachment which eliminates spinup and makes the MCG incredibly dangerous in CQC.
1: The topic isnt about LMGs, it's about Shotguns and SMGs. But can you people imagine Heavies not being able to use shotguns. Heavies with shotguns is a time-honoured tradition. And SMGs are like LMGs that were designed for close quarters with low ammo. If you use a shotgun or SMG, you give up your ability to fight at Mid-Range effectively, but your close quarters abilities is great. Really great, but your mid range sucks. 2: All this talk about LMGs beign good at CQC, is wrong. They are trash at it. Complete trash. Unless you are using Orion or MSW-R or an LMG made for CQC, they are trash at it. The DPS on LMGs is relatively low if you compare it to that of Assualt Rifles and Carbines. What's more, half the bullets you shoot will miss your opponent. Have you seen what happens when you hipfire a TMG-50 for more than 5 seconds? And the Carv isnt much better without CQC attachments, which are just wrong.
I've been suggesting this for a while and I'm in support of it. HA should be less about being able to kill quickly and more about being able to soak damage but using an SMG/Shotgun on an HA is allowing players to both have very low/instant TTK times while being able to tank the most damage of any class which is just wrong. If people that play HA want a CQC weapon, use the Orion, Anchor, or MSR-W since it's what they're made for. On the subject of the Jackhammer, it's fine if NC gets to keep it since it is their faction flavor after all and it's pretty useless at range. Same thing with the TR's MCG being a very good CQC tool. VS get screwed (color me shocked) but the Lasher does need a buff since it is the lowest performing HA special weapon by a mile to bring it up to the level of the Jackhammer/MCG. Maybe an attachment that allows the lasher ball to bounce once (and only once) to shoot around corners?
LMGs are the absolute worst CQC primaries (Sniper Rifles and the such aside). Their hipfre COF is godawful and DPM is close to being a non-factor in a CQC environment which tends to be 1v1 focused. In CQC LMGs don't work for the HA, the Overshield *makes* them work.
Grab a lasersight, you now have the same COF in hipfire as a ASR. Grab a x1 scope, you now have CQC ADS at distances over 6m. grab either the highest rof or highest damage one you can, your choice. learn to aim top it all off with 700 more hp You are now cqc-mid range cheese.
I wasnt accounting headshots as those are intangibles, you cannot guess how many headshots someone might get. It could be none it could be six, assuming all shots hit is a stretch. Heres Orion and terminus. Orion VS54 ROF 750/60=12.5 RPS 12.5*143=1787.5 DPS 143*50=7150 DPM Terminus VX-9 ROF 769/60=12.81 RPS 12.81*143=1832 DPS 143*30=4290 DPM Here we see some clear differences in DPS. Yes, the Terminus is higher in the damage field and yes can kill a HA in less than one second. But lets look at TTK of a overshielded heavy and a medic being attacked by each weapon. 1700/143=11.88 rounds needed at a TTK of 0.927 seconds. 1000/143=6.99 rounds needed to kill a medic from an orion. 0.559 seconds to kill that medic. Faster kills to the medic than the medic to kill you. As for hipfire, get a laser sight and use it as an ASR. On most VS LMGs, lasersight gives the same COF as an ASR without laser. ill include carbines later if youd like
Most LMGs hipfire COF *with* LS/Adv. LS is *at most* equal to an ARs vanilla COF. Their moving (read: ADAD) COF is utter garbage. Certain LMGs are acceptable as ADS CQC, but that would be about it and *acceptable* is their best grade. Their overall DPS tends to be subpar in comparison with ARs and Carbines as well. I'm not quite sure what point are you trying to make here with regard to the Overshield. Yes it makes the HA very beefy, but that's the only thing they have going for them in CQC - the Overshield is what makes LMGs somewhat viable in that environment. A Shotgun/SMG Heavy - now that *is* scary.
Alright, lets look at how an actual 1v1 combat would probably play out, range is about 6--10 meters, lets say the heavy forgets overshield, and that he is TR fighting a VS light assault. The TR Heavy is using the stock CARV, and the LA is using the solstice. The average accuracy of a player is 20%. Lets say that each of them it 20% of their shots. thats 20 bullets hitting from the CARVS 100 round magazine and 6 from the solstice. Thats 858 damage from the solstice 2860 from the CARV. In many cqc combat situations where both parties are aware of eachother in my experience and at about the same gameplay skill level, or sometimes even drastically different skill levels, one or both of them will clip the enemy and sometimes not even get the killing bullet on them. This never happens with LMGs. The fact that you will easily have about twice the ammo in an LMG than an SMG (t2s excluded for VS, for TR and NC you each have 100/200 with extended mags,vs at most have 150 with mags usually at 50 or 75 without), AR, or Carbine makes it a better option. The size of magazine matters just as much as DPS.
Your example makes no sense at all... First of all - you imply both players magdumping; then you fail to specify whether they went for hipfire, or ADS (unless they both ADS the Carbine will have the advantage at this range) and finally you buried all semblance of reason under the statement, that LMGs are superior in CQC to SMGs. And no - DPS > DPM in CQC, as you are more than likely to find yourself dead with lots of bullets left to spare... Ballto, you are simply wrong on this one.
as a primarily HA player, I fully agree with this, but they should revamp the jackhammer that thing is ******** in CQC.. and more people are realizing how "OP" it is.
