[Suggestion] Remove K/D

I can answer the last part down here: You do realize that the post you quoted refutes your argument, right? It actually gives a more logical reason: Killing players is more rewarding (XP wise).

Leaving that aside: You say that stat tracking is one of the reasons that PS2 plays like a team detahmatch. Completely ignoring other possibilities (lack of objectives, objectives only coming in the form of capture points and gens which makes it boring to play the objectives and lack of reward for playing the objectives that do exist) which all have a way bigger and more direct impact.

In fact I would say that stat tracking has no influence on why the game plays like deathmatch. Because removing stat tracking doesn't actually make staying on a capture point or holding "F" to pay your respec... ah .. I mean pressing the activate key to overload the gen fun. In fact the fun I get from playing the objective comes right back to killing. I overload a gen? I now have to defend it. That is the fun in the game. At least for me.

Imbalances have nothing to do with K/D. If K/D was removed a max would still be more powerfull than an HA (actually kind of depends on the situation but in general this is correct)

Removing K/D won't give capturing bases meaning all of the sudden either. This will again have no effect.

I simply disagree with the point that this game plays like battlefield. The huge numbers and other differences create a very different kind of gameplay. Then again I haven't playd BF in years. But only because this game is way better.

And in the last sentence you say that before the game can become objective based stats need to be removed. Again no reasoning behind this. Stat tracking isn't stopping this game from being anything. The lack of fun objectives, reward for objectives and other ingame reasons to complete them ( territory giving you a bonus in some way) is.

About your general attitude towards this playerbase: Personally I find the arrogance with which you look down on other players as to stupid to play, because they are supposedly being mind-controlled by a number, disgusting.
And even if it were true. The solution should never be to remove information that they could use to improve but to tell them how to use it properly and maybe be kind and tell them that it is OK to suck if you start playing this game. Because these days with hundreds of BR 100 players running around who have way more experience it is OK to suck.

I gotta take this opportunity to ask. Would you take me? At least stats wise? ( if you don't have the time to llok them up then that'sok too but I remember some DA players gave me helpful hints on how to read stats and what i was good/bad at some months back which helped me become better.)

For you, maybe. For others it enhances their gameplay experience and their fun. Why do those people have to give up their fun for the other players who could simply ignore KD and still have fun?

If they leave - so be it. It's a necessary sacrifice. PS2 should never have been mainly about kills. But it is, and that attracted the wrong crowd.

But you'd be surprised how little does K/D in common with the perception of own success.

It is somewhat relevant. In that video I remember him saying "you K/D farmers, this game is about capturing territory, so stop farming and go capturing", and my reply to him was: "Why should I bother? If the game is about territory, then it has the wrong incentive system".

I gave you reasoning - my own experience.
In HoN, if there's an argument, people will quote stats to each other saying "your stat X is low, you're a noob", and the other one would reply "no, stat X is irrelevant, stat Y is important, and yours is lower than mine, you're a noob".
In LoL, at least people use actions that happened within this particular game: "you did X, don't do it anymore".
"Just because LoL has the least toxic community doesn't make it less toxic." - logic is not you? Less toxic is less toxic. Lesser evil. All communities are toxic, everywhere, always. There's no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt. (c) Warhammer.

Goal matters. In LoL you too have to kill enemies to get to their base and destroy it.
Objective player will want to kill enemies, and then blow up their sundy / assault their base.
K/D farmer wants to just kill enemies, but capturing the base / destroying the sunderer not only does nothing to help him farm K/D, it goes against it. He wants the enemy to keep spawning at a base / sunderer, so he can kill them again and again.

K/D being important makes the game worse. In incentivizes doing everything the easiest, strongest way possible. Maybe some people wouldn't mind the challenge of trying out a new playstyle, or actually giving the enemy a chance to fight back in a sportsmanlike manner, but NOOO gotta farm the K/D so it's shotguns and MAXes and vehicles for me. Spoils the game for all other players.

I never said removing the K/D was the be-all end-all measure, that will suddenly turn the game to sunshine and puppies. It's one of many reasons.

Cert gain is one of the other reasons. Killing enemies is the fastest way to get certs, shouldn't be so in objective based game. If base captures and defences would give much more certs, kills would give less, and you had a chance to get a random gun by winning an alert - as an example - that would make players more inclined to win, and less inclined to farm.

Not ignoring. Like I said, K/D is one of many, not the only issue.

Yes, and that's why players do not need an additional incentive to use an imbalanced tool.

Humans have been sentient and conscious for about ~200 000 years. Humans have been animals for millions of years before. You really find it surprising that in a lot of ways we do behave like animals?

In your particular case? I don't know, I'd have to see you play live because of the improvement I've seen in your last 3 months.

I've had the same sig since the days where I had a K/D barely above 1, your point is?

Here's what happens really from someone who has 700 LoL games, almost 1000 HoN games and has played DotA + Dota 2 for over 7 years now:

You pick a champion that someone doesn't like and he dodges. You pick a champion or role someone else wanted and he trolls by picking the same and/or dodges. First two picks almost always pick mid and top (or ADC) because you're sorted through your rating in pick screen and if bottom players pick the harder roles people may start flaming in pick screen the exact same way it was in HoN.

The game starts, your teammate or you die first blood and the flaming starts often at that second which then turns into flaming the jungle for not helping the lane or support being bad or adc being bad or literally anything possible. The game is designed in the way that the one getting ***** will keep on getting ***** even harder. It has nothing to do with visible KDR.

I'm certain you have at most played the game at low levels or something because the game is as "toxic" as HoN is in ranked. There's no difference. You can ask people who have played multiple online games what are some of the most toxic playerbases and unless you're askinig Riot employee or blind fanboy you will 100/100 cases get LoL as an answer.

The funny thing is that the least toxic games were in Dota 2 until they introduced ranked matchmaking even though that game had dotabuff since like 2012 which is basically equivalent to da.stats or ps2 stats page. You could see KDA, winrate, winrates/KDA on specific heroes, damage done, lasthits, denies and so on. Yet games were enjoyable for most part and flaming was way less prevalent than in HoN and LoL. Because as long as there isn't a certain specific number that is actually widely recognized as your "skill" it doesn't matter. You can look at the stats and say "hey, he padded that" or "it doesn't matter" or "he stacked" just the way people look at it in PS2 right now. As long as there isn't any actual rating for a player, just lots of different stats nothing will change. Enthusiasts care about their stats and newbies most likely don't, they just focus on the game and try to do as best as they can.

mmh. I have clips I could upload to youtube. but I guess those wouldn't be that representative since I only record (shadowplay lets me choose) if I do something worth recording. Though I will say that those moments come more frequently and the best of them are finally up to par with guys I like to watch on youtube like Moukass and especially Mustarde.

But seeing as I am not really applying I will just take the compliment and move on

PS: Don't be fooled by the KDR alone ( I know you probably weren't anyways but still) That comes from me going sniper. Gotta say I am pretty proud of going MLG with KPH while doing that though

1. Yeah because people being able to see K/D and other stats is a bigger problem than the games dwindling population. Destroy it to save it? (not that I am saying that removing K/D would actually save anything)

2. I don't understand what you mean by that. Me dying a lot and not being able to kill anything will definitely have an impact on whether I think I am doing well. My K/D just tells it to me in the quickest and most efficient way possible.

3. OK. But I still stick to my Opinion. You need to kill the enemy to capture the territory. Capturing the point and by that I mean the actual standing there and waiting for colors to change is nothing but an afterthought. The objective may be called "flip the point" or "capture this base" but in the end it all comes down to who can kill the other side more efficiently and prevent reinforcements.

4. That was a brain fart on my part. What I meant was less toxic doesn't mean that it isn't toxic. or in the words of Dr Rodney McKay "2% less deadly is still deadly".
So people in the lol community watch the replays or something to tell what players did wrong then?
Stats fulfill the same purpose. If your K/d is horrible than you are doing something wrong, like charging into enemy lines like a headless chicken. The guys from DA were able to get a pretty good picture of my strengths and weaknesses from looking at my stats for like 5 mins. And they weren't all like " your accuracy is so bad noob you should quit" either. They used it to make an accurate statement and give me helpful tips to get better. Stats aren't the problem. Like many other things in life it is how they are being used that determines whether or not they are useful. And I won't give up me being able to look at them because some people are jerks.
And frankly I haven't seen a lot of that on these forums (kinda surprising with all the hate). I almost never see people making fun of or calling people noobs because of low KD. Except in threads like these which these days are pretty much flame bait anyways.

5. Or he knows there is nothing at the end of the fight worth ending a good fight. Because lets face it. Right now (at least in imo) finding a good fight and enjoying that IS the game. I want the enemies to stick around so I don't have to be idle. The feeling of constant massive combat excites me. It's why I can't imagine ever going back to Battlefield or CoD.
But having or not having stat tracking won't change that one bit.

6. This assumes that all that the majority of players care about is K/D. That is not my experience. Either on the forums or in game. I honestly don't know where you came up with the theory that all players are obsessed with their KD. It is simply not true.
You actually assume that everything the other players do is because they care about KD, don't you? That is a fantasy.
Some people use vehicles because they just want to be in a tank. They like tanking. KD has jack **** to do with it. You only assume it does.
Just like me. I like sniping. It is fun. It also happens to be a high KD activity. I also happen to care about my KD. However where you assume causation (I care about KD therefore I seek out high KD activities therefore I snipe) only plain correlation ( i like sniping and I like having a good K/D) exists.
This is my way of saying that the concept that people only like to tank, snipe, Shotgun (I actually have horrid KD with those) or playing max comes sorely from their desire for a high K/D is an illusion.

7. Ok. It just looks to me like you are singling it out. I just don't think it is a reason at all.

8. This assumes that killing isn't vital to completing the objective. Killing other players rightfully gets the highest reward. It is both more difficult than support roles (being an effective fighter is harder than dropping an ammo pack where you think friendlies will retreat to to reload or reviving friendlies when you are semi-safe behind friendly lines) and more important. You can take a point without revives. You can't take it without killing the enemy who is on it. The most valuable action gets the most reward. ( Yeah I am wearing my flame ******ant underwaer for this one...)

9. See number 7

10. Or we could just balance the tools. This would actually benefit the game.

11. Now I have never liked biology and got rid of the subject in school as fast as I could here in Germany and I just might make a fool out of myself but it is my understanding that the human race isn't millions of years old.
In any case the solution should always be more information and education about why we behave like we behave and how to behave better instead of restricting information because the player supposedly can't handle the truth. That's what we do to children.
Also I just flat out disagree with your view on humanity. I think we are capable of more than being mindless dumb animals. (which is not to say that all animals are mindless and dumb but I think you get the point)

I am a reckless and undisciplined player. I am trying to get better and do put some good kill streaks together. It just seems like I'm always conflicted and have short stints of brilliance followed by periods of moronic behavior.

I'm not sure I'm even getting better. I do at least have fun while I'm possessed with the stupids. When I hunker down and have to focus on what I'm doing I usually have good results. I'm sure there is some kind of correlation between the 6 to 12 beers and my ******** escapades. OOPS!!!!!

The reason KDR doesn't matter to me is if you want to get good you fight good players. If your not fighting good players you are not learning anything. I don't enjoy just sitting in a good spot 90% of players don't know about and just farming them as they try to attack a point.

When you play counter strike. You go to a server were awesome players gather to have high skill competitive gun fights. If you want to farm KDR you always want to fight low skill enemies in easy combat environments to boost said KDR. Going to a server full of noobs but it's a waste of time because your just picking on low skill players just to brag about your KDR.

Just remember what leads to moronic behavior and avoid that. (not the beer. never avoid beer)

Honestly though. If you are having fun and don't want to focus on getting better (this is where I get my fun from) that much then just keep playing and enjoy the game. As long as you have fun everything is OK.

I know. I'm giving the old college try and attempting to improve. When you have as many bad habits as I it's rough. I started out at .84 and am at my current level of 1.29. I won't give up until I'm at least going 2 for 1. I can live with that. Maybe someone could look at my stats(after the initial laugh fest) and give me an honest opinion of what the hell will help me. I don't Fly and I don't Tank. Then again maybe I'll never be any better than I am now. Thanks for the kind words though.

Yeah I've seen play videos of those types that think it's "fun". They press Tab every 2 seconds.

Allowing KDR to be in the game in the first place is putting your preference over others....absurd, not to mention egotestical.

KDR introduced to wwiionline 2 years after release at around 2003 was corrosive to fun as well.

I agree with you. As I said in my post that the only correct way to play this game is whatever is the way the makes the game fun for you, so using a Light Assault to bail, Sniping or whatever so called “Cheese” are totally legit ways to play, as long as you are having fun. I was just stating that people might not think that you are very skilled at your style of game, going by your relatively low KDR for someone that only cares about KDR. As I personally think that for players like yourself should have a KDR of at least 10, or else they must be doing it wrong, and need to improve on their farming & stat padding tactics.

I took issue with you saying that people with low KDR lack skill, because a player that spent most of their time using a lot of skill Repairing & Healing in the thick of battles might have a <1 KDR, but still be far more useful and pivotal to the fight, compared to someone like yourself that is farming kills from a relatively safe position.

Territory is also important in this game, as the side that is able to lock a continent gets a very nice bonus, but it would be nice if the Devs could come up with some more ways to make securing territory mean more to players. Dying in this game means very little, as it only takes you out of the fight for a few seconds, which obviously therefore means that Killing in this game also means very little. The greatest impact you can have on the battle in this game is securing objectives.

Another way to frame things is that players like myself that are playing for Objectives are playing Chess, while players like yourself that are playing for Kills are playing Checkers. We are playing very different games which happen to be on the same board. Both of us might think the other are Noobs because of the way they are playing, as I will gladly sacrifice my Pawns/Deaths to Checkmate your King/Objective.

I don’t see the point of showing my stats, as I personally don’t think they really matter for my style of gameplay. And I play with 6 alts that are all between BR55-BR85. I myself only care about securing objectives and will usually do whatever it takes to achieve it, which leads to me dying a lot. But I still have positive KDR’s on my alts to my surprise, but I wouldn’t care if my KDR’s were in the negative, as I know that I have a large if not pivotal impact in most battles, as I use the certain roles and tactics that would help my side win.

Another reason I’ve jumped into this discussion is that I’ve been playing this game since Closed Beta, and have noticed in the past few months that KDR has become more and more important for many players, and I’m a bit amused by this as this is one of the most easiest games to get a high KDR (if not thee easiest) . As you can literally have a KDR of whatever you wanted it to be, if you really wanted to put the tedious effort into it.


I would still respect your opinion just as much if you had a KDR <1 or >9000, as my point I’m trying to get across is that as long as you are having fun then you are a good player. If this game could somehow show our Fun Ratio then we would truly know who are the “Best” players.

Well, unlike many games out there most folks are going to totally unaware of the massive difference in frame rate they go from base to base or point to point. I've learned, or at least tried to make a concerted effort, to pay attention to how I'm playing and glancing at my FPS counter at the lower right ticking away. I've obvious played much better in smaller battles with a 60 FPS but most of the time I've noticed some pretty terrible frame rate as it would average actually 40 FPS since I don't normally say no to a battle or good fight. Hossin is the worst which is normally 30 FPS and below and even at one point was in the teens. So, with that I adjusted my play style accordingly so I don't end up wondering why I die so often when I believed to have been in good cover. With bad FPS, I tend to play much more cool downed mode and walking more often as I find myself playing better in 30 FPS this way and only run when I need to.

This, of course, colors every stat in the game if what you are playing with isn't up to spec. So, for what KDR is worth, is really up to how the individual player is playing with their setup and how many variables they can step back and go over in order to make a better effort next time or, more critically, adjust their playstyle if performance goes down. If we understand this, then it become clear the outrage some folks with .1-1 kdr have with their stats because they're honestly frustrated and are not aware of their technical performance with what they are working with. Even if it's not worded right you can't miss the honesty sometimes and just trolling back is deconstructive.

How does access to a performance metric in any way negatively impact someone?

And yet you can't beat them even though they're pressing TAB. Sad..

It has a very negative impact on his ego, since he has not learned to control it yet.

Again with your attack the messenger debate tactic. Not only is KDR corrosive to gameplay fun it's also corrosive to the community, as you guys continue to prove.