[Suggestion] Rebalance the Vanguard shield. It's fine in MBT' vs MBT, all other situations it's OP.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Village, Mar 16, 2014.

  1. Saber15

    Completely false.
    I can fire ~3-5 (can't remember exact numbers) AP shells at the rear end of a Vanguard with my Anchor 5 Prowler and still not take down its shield.
  2. FaLI3N

    I have played with all 3, magrider and prowler extensively but vanguard the least due to the current overpop of NC on my server (but still enough to know all the ins and outs of the thing). So yes I have played against the magrider before and can kill them when they have secondary gunners while I am without one in both the prowler and vanguard.

    PS the Vanguard is as fast as the magrider with racer 3 and has inconsequentially slower acceleration if you know how to gear pop.

    However this post wasn't about MBT vs MBT balance so I will cease this line of discussion as to not further derail the topic.
  3. Alarox

    2 P2-120 AP shots + 1 Halberd shot will drop the shield.
    • Up x 1
  4. WTSherman

    5 Prowler AP shells is 5162 damage, after armor (damage is multiplied by armor and the AP modifier separately), which is enough to drop the shield and bring the tank down to half health.
    3 Prowler AP shells is 3097 damage, which is still sufficient to drop it. If you get two shots on the rear and then he turns during your 1 second reload, your next pair of shots should still drop the shield from the side or front anyway.

    So basically if you fire 3-5 Prowler AP shots at the rear and the shield is not down, you probably didn't hit.

    2 shots plus a Halberd is 2765 damage, so basically one more shot or some help from a friendly Basilisk will drop it after that.

    Alternatively, if you've got a Vulcan and can keep it trained on him for 3 seconds, that and the AP cannon can drop the shield without reloading.

    The Magrider can't quiiiite pull off the same thing, one AP shot and a Saron clip is 2733 damage, so they'll still need 2 shots from the Saron after they reload. Still, at that point even if the Vanguard turns the shield is still done for.
    • Up x 1
  5. VeryCoolMiller

    True but prowler has the same issue and less hp. Additionally magraider projectile has a really parabolic trajectory , really hard hit something above 200 m, while Vanguard can snipe esf running full speed.

    Prowler can snipe esf, but hardly kill them, because a single ap round isn't enough to kill.

    Vanguard is the best tank, period.

    Magraider is a strong tank. Prowler is usefull only at range with anchor (nullifying the gunner role if the prowler is equipped with the faction weapon ).

    Additionally, you have more hp and are the only tank with 68% dmg reduction on front and front armor scale better on vanguard than on the other two tanks.

    I'm ok with everything but the I-win button has to go.

    try to be in a prowler and meet a vanguard at less than 100 meter
  6. Odamit

    All other situations it's too good? I'm skeptical at the least, load out / cert level pending, a 2/2 tank can only focus on so many targets which doesn't necessarily ensure [a] threat(s) has been neutralized. It's easier to say all situations without identifying any...
    • Large and small scale fights?
    • Getting whittled down by high altitude ESF's nose cannon; almost directly above an MBT, not even using A2G or w/e non A2A only missiles with little to no cover?
    • Getting picked off by high altitude Daltons, or Tank Buster Libs, again with limited cover?
    • Playing peek a boo with multiple HA's / LA's or Medic or other C4 bearing classes?
    • Unspotted engineer AV turrets?
    • Foot zergs?

    It's pretty hard to notice any MBT with a Mine Guard equipped. As far as the C4 issue goes, if the shield can be negated by sufficient damage, doesn't that work in favor of whoever is attacking it (shield being weakened, and CD started)? Yea the tank doesn't get destroyed, but the driver's focus has now changed to finding out where that player went, and not focusing on other threats.

    So far most C4 classes I've encountered don't even try to approach from the rear to stick C4 on me (if I notice them, generally it's Engineers with AT Mines), they're either above me from a safe distance and time the drop right or they try to stick C4 to the sides / front, or top if they're a LA and they're running jump jetting in front of me with the main gun pointed in their general direction. :confused:

    It seems to me that people are just surprised when a VG uses the shield, and then come to the forums requesting some stat change to the Shield. This has to be at least the 3rd or 4th thread suggesting a stat change to the shield, and I believe the general consensus on one thing is clear: Close combat with a VG especially if you're infantry is significantly riskier than a Prowler or Magrider because of the shield.

    Maybe we need a different change that doesn't affect numbers, but player awareness? Because players can't deal with a VG Shield equipped in smaller skirmishes it seems to me. Seriously, these VG Shield change threads are just people throwing ballpark figure stats and extremely limited unconfirmed personal encounters at each other.

    Why not take the blue Vanguard Shield Nanite Tube stuck on the bottom of the Nanite Reactor bucket at the back of the Vanguard, and place it somewhere on top of the tank and have it lit up when the shield can be activated and dark / black when it's on CD? Therefore, it'd be a clear indication that you C4 fairies are clear to go nuts trying to stick it.
  7. redshirt

    Pop a huge movement penalty on it would be a nice start, say reduced max speed by ~80%
  8. Jake the Dog

    Lol I was. I made a new TR character at my cousin's outfit's behest. I have about 32 certz into my prowler and already killing vgs from 10m to around 500m. (ones with the shield and me with heat). Should you attack a vg head on? no. I wouldn't that is their forte I know its ins and outs. Imo this post is irrelevant towards the vg and should instead look at the failings of the mag. Prowler needs a secondary gun fix and that's about it and yes u may not be able to one shot aircraft in a prowler but ur dps is crazy high and the ability to fight off infantry is way, WAY higher than the AP vg with a AP prowler.
  9. Jake the Dog

    +1 for battle zone
  10. Flag

    Yes, I have in fact toyed around with the 3rd person aiming (on a Vanguard). And it's not as hard to do as some people make it out to be.
    Not easy, the mag still is better at it (only combat-oriented thing the mag does better than the others), but with some practice good players should be able to have good success rates for it.
  11. Jake the Dog

    why not just make a post about the mags abilities instead of the vanguards. I've seen first hand from both ends of the prowler how good deploy can be. You may be immobile but it does mean you will out dps the **** out of everyone around you. Magriders... well tbh a little boost is kinda dumb. I never liked the idea of magburn and that is your primary problem with the mag because tanks dont need a nitrous system... they're tanks and supposed to do things like... tank.
  12. FaLI3N

    I've been using the prowler lately and 3rd person headshotting infantry whilst moving with first shot :p after a bit of practice and knowledge of how the average infantry move whilst ******** themselves you can hit fairly reliably even when blinded by the tank model.
  13. FaLI3N

    Because fixing magburn won't negate the massive advantage the shield has against stealth and flanking tactics until it allows you to take off vertically and cruise around like an ESF.
  14. Flag

    Because doing something with an ability that is too good is more important than doing something to one that's too weak. If something is too weak, but only that one, you have options. If something is too strong, you do not have an option.
  15. Himofeelia

    Its a simple change... the shield just needs to work like the MAX shield. Pop it and you cant attack problem solved and its balanced.

    The problem with the vanguard is it has hardly any projectile drop (prowler was nerfed because of this same reason). It does the most damage w/enforcer it can out dps any tank on the field. Magrider doing the least amount of damage with the most difficulty to hit with - Saron is only useful if you get rear shots. The vanguard can look up way too high needs to be the same at the prowler at best.

    You cannot 1v1 a vanguard with any tank nor can you easily run due to the nearly no drop projectiles which do massive dmg. approx 4 shots is enough to destroy any other MBT with 8 secs of WIN (16secs if the crew exploits a known bug - which happens a lot). People in this thread are saying you can take the shield down with attacks from behind - if the driver isnt rotating his tank to protect his rear then they deserve to die quicker.

    Either way it is supposed to be a "defensive item" but is being used as an offensive item. Pop shield go into a clump of MBTs and take 3 out. Drive away with more than 1/2 health.

    Other things ive seen many times is the second gunner will hop out while shield is up and repair. This is instant death for anything the Vanguard is up against unless you can drive off a cliff or down a hill youre dead.

    The shield should also not cover the bottom of the vehicle - there is no reason why a faction should have a vehicle without mine guard that can clear mines and take 0 damage.

    In summary:
    * Make shield work like the NC MAX... use = no attack
    * No shield on bottom
    * Reduce projectile velocity to match the prowler at best
    * Reduce the up angle to match the prowler at best
    * Damage and reload times can stay the same
    * Fix seat swap bug/exploit for ALL vehicles
  16. Jake the Dog

    False, I would rather have the prowler deploy tbh than the shield. both have their niches. Mag burn isnt any good in mass combat perhaps maybe in small ways but nothing major. You lack a significant advantage save a bit more mobility.

    Im not talking about fixing magburn. Lets be honest its a ****** ability. Yes the shield helps against flanking tactics if you know they're there. guess what else helps against flanking tactics... Maybe a boost to get away from said flankers... or maybe even a little situational awareness. I killed 2 vans yesterday with AT mines i placed behind them and shot the mines (poor mans c4). You are ignoring the fact that your tanks ability is poor. in range battle and large scale combat due to the nature of your hover tank. Your argument is invalid. THE NATURE OF YOUR ABILITY IS THE PROBLEM. You expose urself when you mag burn around a tank at 30m.
  17. Flag

    And how exactly is it false?
    You actually haven't disproved my claim.

    All tanks have multiple options.
    If one of the options for tank A is UP, you still have the option of the other abilities.
    If one of the options for tank B is OP, there's no reason not to use it (on the assumption that people -will- min-max.. The other abilities are "waste of space" for that tank only, even if identical ones are valid on tank A and C.
  18. FaLI3N

    I have used all 3 tanks quite extensively, I know how they work. Magburn is terrible but fun, offering little to no advantage in combat against anyone remotely capable in their tank. Lockdown is amazing when used well and terrible when used incorrectly, sadly a lot of TR fall into the infantry farm trap and never realize this abilities full potential. Vanguard shield can be used to reverse bad fortune in nearly any situation regardless of enemies skill if you are remotely capable, offers massive combat advantage and does not need to be used with situational awareness in mind like lockdown.

    As you so kindly said it the nature of your ability is the problem, nobody should have an ability that adds that much to your effective health. I play whatever faction is underpopped to help them out so although I have the most time in a magrider I no longer identify with any one faction. I am the mythical 4th factioner that people like to ***** about but I only do it to make my server a more balanced place.
    • Up x 1
  19. Flag

    If you don't mind, I'd like to rephrase that to:
    The reason for this is to give a nod to Anchor. All comments of it still being too good or not aside, it does alter the base TTK of the engagements it's used in. But using it wrong is likely to cost you the tank.
    I personally don't believe anchor is balanced, neither the benefit nor the crippling downside, but that's a different topic.
    Shield, instead of cutting down the TTK on your target, increases the TTK on yourself by a ridiculous degree.

    Again, I don't believe the shield nor the anchor are in a good place (there's more flawed at the core of the Anchor), but fixing one, anchor, requires a lot more work than fixing shield.
  20. Jake the Dog

    The prowler has very little drop on AP as well lol. It is the nature of which gun you use. Once again you will out dps the van. The vans ability is perfect for mid-close range combat. Prowler ability mid-long. Both have scenarios where they are good in a limited fashion outside of their comfort zones. Once again magriders ability is meh and not very good.

    First thing I noticed when I grabbed a prowler was the lack of recoil that is a huge bonus but you might say skilled players will compensate well duh same with drop. Try shooting over 500m with a sniper rifle with a silencer, I do, try to compensate.

    While i have not noticed personally the angle issue so I won't comment on that.

    You imply that they always pop shield when their are mines. Mineguard is a passive ability. A shield requires human activation. I've rolled vanguard before if I dont see the mines I die. If i do I drive around them... or just shoot them. Same exact thing i do in a lightning, prowler, sunderer and flash. Its a waste of shield tbh and you dont know how many mines there are (correct me if I'm wrong) any more than 2 your shields are gone and you're going to take damage.

    I also see prowler and magrider gunners jump out to rep too. problem is they're vulnerable especially in mags because you can nail their feet. If their is infantry nearby a tanker is a prime target especially for snipers.

    I believe the projectile velocity happened due to the high rate of fire from the prowler. Making it crazy hard to dodge the amount of steel raining upon you.

    Definitely fix the bug though personally hate it when people exploit the system like that.