rebalance infiltrators

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by VeryCoolMiller, May 6, 2019.

  1. TobiMK

    One more thing about this part. Yes, there are skilled players that play infiltrator obviously. But with all the crutches that the infiltrator offers, let's assume two equally skilled players fight. If one is an infiltrator and one is a Heavy Assautl (and they are both equally skilled) the infiltrator will always win. The HA has to overcome all of the infiltrator's advantages plus he has to evade a gun that can kill in one hit at any point in time.

    For the HA to win consistently against that enemy infiltrator they will need a significantly higher level of skill. That is the issue here. The infiltrator with its abilities bridges the skill gap between two competing players. Much like shotguns and MAXes do. Just with infiltrator no one really seems to complain, because it has this misconception around it of being a squishy, low DPS infantry class. But as my previous comment should show, that is not true at all.
  2. chamks

    i agree! infiltrators are cancer. they have invisability and weapons with higher dps than other classes. the -100 health is not compensate enough.
  3. Tigre

    I started as one, i can track them down and kill them with ease. when i get shot by one i go out and kill them it is not hard. you know where the shot came from, just go out and get them. i sat right in front of one, as one. sent him a message and then shot him point blank. become a better player and learn how to deal with the thing that is causing you prob.
  4. Tigre

    PS i also track them as A heavy and light. use flash light it is fun to show them that they are not on top, also list. for them to call out you can narrow in on them.
  5. Dargadon

    Just restrict cloak use when Infiltrator equipped with Sniper rifle, duh~
    This will leave Hunter and Armor cloak for SMG and Scour Rifle use only.
  6. Skraggz


    On page 4 someone points out the opposite... I don't think people know why they don't like infils.... they just do.
  7. Dargadon

    Only problem Infitrators have - is OHK capability from stealth. Currently you can`t counter active sniper with stealth who frequently change his position. Taking away cloak from sniper rifle will add some fairness to sniping and countersniping.
  8. pnkdth


    Where even to begin...

    1. This applies to every single class yet with a BASR you have quite a long time between shots (with the lowest magnified scope of 3.4x), must take aim for the head and ALWAYS hit. If you find this "easy" I recommend playing the HA since you'll do much better.
    2. You don't know what a wall-hack is.
    3. Lol, nano-armor cloak. Yes, super useful on to have a % of resist on the lowest effective HP class. It is extra useful to have your weapon shut off when taking fire. So, no, infiltrators do not use this much unless they stick to theory rather than practice (which I suspect you have due to these odd statements).


    You would think so but you'd be wrong.



    Infil-stomping is easy-peasy. You can, of course, be outplayed by someone who's an infiltrator but there are many steps you can take to avoid getting caught with your pants down.

    Maybe all the MLG Ready Dank Squads and kings of Mount Dew simply use HAs because they want to give the rest of us a chance but probably not... Indeed, for all your talk about how powerful they are and the meta tend to go towards what is the most powerful/easy it is quite strange how few good infiltrators there are out there.

    And most damning, of course, no one in this thread have even the tiniest evidence at all infiltrators are this easy mode super class destroying everyone all the time. It is all just words and salt.
    • Up x 1
  9. Pondera


    Well, see, here's the thing. I was just relating a personal experience and questioning if some consideration was not needed for OP's statement. If you don't believe me, I really don't care. I happen to like infiltrators. I like being able to be that evil to people with near absolute impunity if I play well. If they remain as they are, I'm fine. If they are nerfed in some ways, I'm a good soldier. I can adapt to the changes. I have no horse in this race.
  10. pnkdth


    Fair enough. I am just tired of seeing suggestions for nerfs and such when there is nothing that hints at infiltrators is overpowered. That being said, any OHK weapon has been, and still is, subject to some controversy.

    I certainly wouldn't mind if infiltrators were focused on scout rifles more. Would have carved out a nice niche of being a mix of ARs and Carbines yet more focused on accuracy (through both semi automatic and full auto fire). The full auto scout rifles are my favourite (with the most kills of all my weapons) but sadly it is a very limited selection.
  11. That_One_Kane_Guy

    Well this is just false. Maybe if both players are running scripts a perfect hitrate and HSR (even then the HA's shield can tank a HS unless it's point-blank, so it's still not a guarantee) will bag the Infil a win every time. In the real world where people miss shots, however, the simple truth is that one of these classes is punished far more significantly for a miss than the other is.

    Saying the infiltrator will win 100% of their fights against an equal skilled heavy is dishonest, full-stop. Thanks to Recursion I know from personal experience just how many times I get killed by "lesser skilled" players and I highly doubt that I'm somehow unique.

    You're right, the Heavy Assault doesn't have any advantages over the Infiltrator. I bet no one even uses that class.

    If the Heavy is an idiot and fights the Infiltrator where he is strong, then yes he will need higher mechanical skill to make up the difference in brainpower. Unfortunately most of the enemies I've been fighting recently haven't been willing to accommodate me in that regard. Maybe DX11 came with an AI update.

    No, it shows you don't believe that to be the case which constitutes neither truth nor evidence.

    All of your examples and scenarios seem heavily predicated on the Infiltrator never missing a shot which is a situation so far from reality it may as well be completely disregarded. Perhaps at the very tippy-toppy pointy-end of the skill pyramid the Infiltrator has the ability to win 100% of the time in a controlled environment. Maybe in an arena shooter that would even matter. Unfortunately it doesn't, so all we're going to get here is endless circles of hearsay and personal anecdotes about a subject that was decided years ago.
  12. TobiMK

    The time between shots with a CQC sniper is very short, with the Critical Chain implant it becomes non-existent.

    CQC snipers can equip 1-4x sights.

    As I explained previously, you absolutely do not have to always hit. Thanks to motion detection and cloak, you can set up any engagement in your favor and do not run any risk of dying should you miss your first shot. So you get a free second/third/fourth attempt, while already using a gun that requires little more than one click to the head.


    As opposed to sniping, playing successfully as HA actually requires multiple mechanical skills and taking risks. Anyone can pull a sniper and perform well, thanks to the already mentioned abilities. Doing well as a HA requires positioning, awareness, good movement, and actual aim (read: recoil control and tracking).


    Call it ESP then, the semantics don't change how stupid motion detection is and how annoying it is to any class that isn't the infiltrator themselves.


    Again, infiltrators get an additional 100 HP with Nano Armor Cloak, placing them among all the other classes with 1k HP. And yes, who could imagine that having 35% resistance to incoming bodyshot damage is useful? It is extremely strong, especially since (as you claim) many people miss a lot of shots and thus have to retreat from their engagements. Ignoring 35% of incoming damage is insanely strong there.

    It doesn't sound like you've sniped much really. The first thing that you learn when bolting in this game is that you only uncloak to shoot. Not before, not after. This way, you can't take more than a handful of bullets before your cloak is back up and that 35% damage resistance becomes active. Again, this just shows how strong this truly is.

    I know that Forumside isn't very familiar with meta loadouts (or skilled play in general), but again, any single infiltrator that is competent uses Nano Armor Cloak. The upsides are insanely strong and ignoring them means nerfing yourself. It's honestly mind-boggling how there are still so many infiltrator players that don't use this.



    Stomping any class is easy on live, because the average player is probably a Forumside user. Most of the infiltrators you come across sit on hills and snipe long-range and apparently don't know that Nano Armor Cloak exists.




    The reason that good players prefer HA is that it's not a cheap crutch, but actually requires some time investment to become good with. Instead of having abilities that do the work for you, you have access to an overshield that serves mostly as a way to escape from all the mindless explosive (and sniper bodyshot!) spam this game. Playing on easy mode for a long time will become boring quickly, so playing classes like HA, LA or medic is the more natural choice.
  13. TobiMK

    The point of making up a scenario of equally skilled players is that the deciding difference in any engagement is the equipment. And if you compare a 450 HP overshield against motion detection, invisibility, OHK weapons plus the effects of Nano Armor Cloak, then it's quite obvious that the infiltrator comes out on top.

    It goes without saying that anything is possible on live. It's impossible to not get killed by worse players.

    If everyone played for maximum effectiveness, you wouldn't see any Heavies around indeed. Luckily people realized long ago that crutching on infiltrator is only fun for so long, where as playing HA actually presents a challenge if you want to become a good player.

    That right there is the issue with infiltrator. It's strong everywhere. You'd think they'd have to make a choice when switching between fighting inside buildings and at longer ranges, but sniper rifles (not just CQC ones) are perfectly viable indoors as well. And if they decide to run a CQC loadout with SMGs, they can use their cloak to close the gap that would usually mean a range advantage for the opponent.

    That AI has been in the game since launch.

    I know this is Forumside, but I'm still amazed at how so many people here think that it's some rare skill to consistently hit headshots with a bolt. You don't have to be top 1% to be able to do stupidly well with infiltrator. Exactly that is what infiltrator does, it allows people to perform outside of their actual skill level with all the advantages you get thrown at you. For a player to perform equally well with HA and infiltrator, they'd have to actively play infiltrator wrong just to become worse.

    Maybe it was decided years ago on Forumside, but that represents the average player at best. There are still a ton of other players that have been putting up with getting OHKed out of nowhere for close to 7 years.

    The complaints about infiltrator are less, because the majority of players get farmed by any class regardless. Add to that that infiltrator still has this outdated misconception of being the squishy glass cannon, which Nano Armor Cloak easily disproves.
  14. pnkdth


    Yeah, because competitive minded players will ALWAYS opt for the more challenging route and NEVER use what is the most effective tool to win.

    I use the overshield as a way to win engagements not running away. Don't think I've ever heard of anyone using as a means to avoid explosives/snipers. Sure, you can do it but the power of the HA as a frontline fighter is the use of it to deal damage while soaking it up in return.

    The competitive meta has always been the trinity of HA/medic/eng with the maximum of one infiltrator (maybe two if multiple squads) and the only way you (in the general sense) would get to play that infil is if you are really good at it. LAs are not even a part of it since all they do is die in impossible to ress places and make the squad weaker. There are exceptions, of course, like sundy suicide squads but generally speaking if you run off as a LA/infil you're likely kicked off the squad for being a numpty.

    You are correct on the optics though, I completely missed they added that part in.
  15. Scroffel5

    Ok Tobi, I don't really feel like quoting your post because I know you are probably reading this all, but lets suppose there is a fight between a Heavy Assault and an Infiltrator. Say the Infiltrator is using a BASR and the Heavy Assault is using his standard LMG. Say they both always hit the head. If you hit the head against a Heavy Assault without his ability active, he will die. If he does have his ability active, he will be left with a sliver of health. Meanwhile, the Heavy Assault just headshotted you three or four times with his gun. At this point, you have to hit him again to kill him, but you headshot every time. At this point, without going over statistics, it could be anyones game. The NC Heavy Assault only needs 4 headshots to kill an Infiltrator, and he can pull it off in that time.

    No one hits the head 100% of the time. In a scenario where you would likely fight a Heavy Assault, that being close range, you would have to quickscope him AND hit his head to kill him, and then hit him again if he has his Overshield on. That sounds pretty balanced to me, that I have to have the skill or knowledge or reaction to pull that off. I play as an Infiltrator. I do not consistently pull of headshots. I consistently pull off body shots, and I consistently over or under lead my target using the NC14 Bolt Driver. I am much better with my Railjack as I trained with that for a long time before switching servers. I am not the best Infiltrator, but it is not an easy feat to hit the head 90% of the time. The Infiltrator does not beat the HA every time in an engagement because the HA has an Overshield and has a higher damage automatic rifle to take you down. Its completely false to even suggest that, as that isn't what is shown by actual gameplay. When a class plays to its strengths, it will usually dominate. An Infiltrators strength is long range and recon, picking off targets one by one. It can do short to mid range too, but it is a class built for long range, just you have a few more options if you want to continue playing it. You really have to ask why their guns don't transfer over to other classes, excluding LMGs and Battle Rifles. They have Sniper Rifles and Scout Rifles because they are built for headshots. I am going to just say that yes, I am biased because I play this class the most, but I do play other classes when I am needed to do so. I can say that it is easier in 1vs1 engagement as a Heavy Assault to take down Infiltrators with snipers than it is to take down Infiltrators with SMGs, because they usually get the jump on me and I am a lagger.

    Now to your point about Nano Armor. I have already said this. Nano Armor only helps you when you are running away. In the time that you may have a CQC sniper, when you fire it, cloak, and uncloak, it doesn't matter if it reduces 35% damage or not. There is a delay between cloaking and uncloaked, so at that point you have already been hit 2 or 3 times and have already rechambered your weapon and haven't had a chance to shot because you are still cloaked. That negates the 35%. You could argue that they had a harder time hitting you because you were cloaked, and you took less damage than if you weren't cloaked, but you couldn't finish your target as fast. You had the cloaking delay that stopped you from doing so, and you may die because of it. To me, that just shows that it is made for when someone is chasing you. Say you are being chased and they are shooting at you and you turn the corner and now they can't find you. Because of the damage reduction, you stayed alive longer. The thing is, your cloak will then run out and they can see you, so it didn't do much good.

    Now on to your point about CQC Infiltrators with SMGs. That is actually a good point. They can use the cloak to close a gap that wouldn't have been closed if you didn't have the cloak. You would have been spotted and lit up. That is why I have already suggested SMG's be taken away from Infiltrators and Scout Rifles, typically Automatic Scout Rifles, reward you more highly for headshots and to raise the firerate of those, excluding the Tomoe, which is a great example of a scout rifle. I think SMG Infiltrators are unbalanced because they can catch you off guard unlike any other class could, then they can take you down extremely fast because they have already put 2-3 bullets into you before you can put 1 into them.

    TO ANYONE WHO WANTS MORE INFO ABOUT HOW I THINK WE SHOULD BALANCE INFILTRATORS:

    Check out my post in the Infiltrator Class Discussions. It contains more information about this, and I would like to know your thoughts on the balance of Infiltrators.
  16. Skraggz

    Uh huh... and what happens when you miss your shot with these guns.... the part you're neglecting to mention to sway the conversation....

    You have to RECHAMBER a round while cqc. If you died to a infil that rechambered a round you will 100% die to a HA or LA landing their shots. Those guns you touched on are easily Risk vs Reward, if you think cloak is enough to compensate that then tell all the infils I have gunned down (while in their cloak no less) that they have a magical end all be all cloak button.
    • Up x 2
  17. TobiMK

    Competitive and Planetside have never mixed well. Server Smash showed us how the game turns to cancer if it becomes too competitive. In "competitive" infantry scrims, infiltrators are restricted to 1 per team because they are too strong. If there was free choice of class, it'd be 5 infiltrators and 1 LA.

    The "correct" way to play HA is to avoid damage from the front entirely and rely on flanking. But getting to those flanks often means exposing yourself to explosive and sniper spam, thus why HA shield is a good way to get yourself into a position where you can attack enemies from the side and where you don't rely on the overshield to win 1v1 engagements.

    Actually good squads do not have restrictions on classes, as it is expected that the players themselves know which class is required at what time. Class restrictions are often placed by squad leaders that like to play roleplay some sort of milsim squad. Unless you are running some absolute pub squad, it's better to let the squad members make their own decisions.
  18. Scroffel5

    Again, making assumptions. Let me try. In a "competitive" infantry scrim, infiltrators are restricted to 1 per team because they don't bring much to the table and you don't want a flood of Infiltrators that will make you lose. (The whole point about them being too strong makes 0 sense, because if they are two strong, they would be used more often and the fights would be dull.)

    The "correct" way to play HA is to tank all the damage for your teammates to buy them time to kill the rest of the enemies. You can use it to flank, but that makes 0 sense too as the Overshield gives you a speed reduction and once you have been shot, they are going to come after you anyways, regardless of overshield. Really, every class should flank to win the battle, but you need someone to meet at the front lines to stop the other team from flanking. The first heavy assault class name is called FRONTLINE DEFENDER, because that is what they are built for.

    Squad leaders roleplaying is good for Planetside. It gives an immersive experience to the game. What I do when I lead is ask players to be a certain class if they are comfortable doing so, and organize them based on ability to do their tasks. The whole point of a squad is to lead them to battle to win. That is the reason people should join a squad, so to say that its better to let them make their own decisions conflicts with the point of being in a squad. However, your point does give me an idea. I am going to run an Infiltrator squad on Emerald and see how that goes. I want to see what happens.

    As a last point, I think you are trolling, because everything you have said so far contradicts with what the game implies.
  19. Scatterblak

    Dead wrong here. Infiltrators by their nature tend to play a patient game of waiting, as opposed to the hamburger hill style that the HA's and LA's seem to dig. The KD is going to be higher. Check total kills, and you'll see it's lower.

    Dead issue - moving along to the next post...
  20. TobiMK

    Rechambering upon a missed shot is not an issue if you can set up every engagement in your favor. You can see enemies thanks to your motion detection, you can plan ahead for missing a shot. If you come into a situation where you miss and cannot retreat, then you made a fundamental positioning mistake. Player inability doesn't make the class any more balanced.