rebalance infiltrators

I don't understand what you're getting at here.

I invite you to prove that the Jaeger experience correlates to the Live servers in any way, shape or form. Specifically how they can be used as a reference point for balance, player experience, etc.

Hyperbole isn't a contradiction. And at least I admit to it, rather than actually claiming something that is so far beyond hyperbole, it's probably closer to delusion (see once again: "I'm going to take this opportunity to point out again that in the really, really, real reality of the game right now, when an Infiltrator and a Heavy Assault walk into a bar 99% of the time the one who walks out again isn't the one holding the sniper rifle").

Will you? Can only once more refer to your statement above about infiltrators and HAs.

Big, chaotic battles is one of the great illusions of Planetside. Sure, it gives the game a certain unique taste to it, but that wears off quickly. The retention rate of the game says it all. It can't hold new players. Of course this cannot be attributed to random deaths alone, much less the infiltrator class, but any cause to this seems worth fixing, does it not? Random deaths are charming until a player starts to actually try to play the game somewhat seriously. Trying to hold a point, trying to capture a base are common playstyles for more experienced players. And the absolute worst thing about them is all the uncoordinated and unregulated spam of explosives, long-range chip damage and other unforeseeable sources (one of them: infiltrators) that'll end up killing any effort at "winning".

Planetside does not have any clear distinctions between skill groups, we've got to work with what we've got. Furthermore I'm not here to win a trophy for my debate skills. I'm presenting the best argument available to me here, mainly because I am far too uninvested to do any sort of "research". The consensus of top players is usually enough already, unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case here.

Well, of course it is. How else would you have two players of identical skill fight?

Feel free to have a look at the video I provided earlier, for some proof. Alternatively, go out and play infiltrator for a bit and experience how easy this game can be.

And as I said previously, [Citation needed].

Sure sure, buddy. Just like everything else that has been Thanos snapped out of your replies.

I'm actually on board with most of those suggestions. Not preventing the use of a scope while cloaked though, as that just sounds like a massive nerf to quality of life. The rest seem fair.

Quite unlike sniper rifles, depending on the actually SMG in question they require little aim and not much skill to use effectively. Blitz/Srius for example is a pretty solid middle-of-the-road SMG that does a lot of things well without suffering too terribly in any regard. Kills fast and easy within the short effective range on an SMG.

How does one use it effectively? However the player wants. Hipfire headshots, ADS headshots, hipfire/ADS spraying, it's got the CoFs and magazine and fire rate to to it right and does so right out of the box. Then we get things like the Canis.

Then take that SMG and slap it onto an infiltrator and suddenly all the perks and bonuses have the firepower to become flat power boosts rather than just a part of the class. Stalkers even do it all the same or better yet if anyone complains about them it's because they're an AFK teammate.

Yes, clearly not.

Wait, what ? Are we still talking about that OP infiltrator class that any average player can hop on and do well effortlessly by having the abilities do the work ? This here sounds almost like you want to say that there's actually a fair amount of skill involved. Could you please clear that up, I was actually looking forward to eventually be able to go easymode too

Didn't watch the whole video, but from what I saw, well, that player, in that fight, with these allies and enemies, now honestly, do you really want to say he'd done worse on a HA ?

I think I understand now where you are comming from. Yes, 1v1, the infiltrator does have an advantage. But in normal gameplay, that just doesn't happen at any relevant frequency. Someone is almost always close by enough to add in. So better forget about that kind of argument for balancing reasons.

Long range snipers. Dominating. At 0 risk. Sorry, but just no. Break line of sight, approach them out of line of sight, put a blast of pellets through their head. With the very rare excepetion of only a couple of highly skilled snipers, this works every time. No dominating at zero risk level involved at all, well, at least not on the snipers side.

Yes, in small fights, if only one side has an infiltrator, the motion detection is a very strong advantage (as long as the enemy didin't bring a scout radar vehicle). It's somewhat similar to only one side bringing a max. Or only one team bringing medics. Or heavies. Or in a vehicle fight, when only one side has engineers. I think the only class that can't bring that kind of one sided advantage is the LA. Maybe they need a buff ?

So seriously, I think you will have realized that I don't find your arguments very convincing. I do play a lot, but I just don't see the kind of infiltrator you describe in game in any relevant quantities. So may I suggest a different approach ?

Bolt Action Rifles are in effect very much like longer range shotguns.

And while the OPedness of Shotguns has in recent times also been heavily contested, I still think this might get more players willing to talk about balance than any 1v1 or small elite squad considerations.

Lets talk about long range sniping, once again. I was at the Bastion, on the cliff side, really high up. I don't even remember how I got there as an Infiltrator, but I started sniping people. Then, I heard an Infiltrator cloak. I was kinda confused, and looked around to see where they were at. I also heard a jetpack, and I was like, "Great, its gonna be a 2vs1." I turn around and boom, headshotted by a shotgun. Here's what happened. I was on a tall, pillar-like object, and he flew from under me when I was looking down for him and he went out of my line of sight. He was using the minor cloak, hence the cloaking sound I was hearing, and he snuck up behind me when I wasn't looking, trying to get as close as possible. Because he closed the ground, he killed me.

The point of my story is that you can't argue imbalance in long range snipers because they are snipers. They fight at long ranges, and when someone gets close, you are pretty much screwed. With other classes, you have to close the distance, but with a sniper, you have to make more distance. If someone is getting close to you as a sniper, what do you usually do? I know that I try to snipe them, but I do it while running backwards. I take a shot, cloak, run backwards, uncloak, take another shot, and repeat until they are dead or I am dead.

You can argue that a sniper is unbalanced because it has the potential to do well in every range, thanks to do damage. You can argue unbalance because it dominates the outdoor environment and can rack up kills if you are a good shot. It doesn't make it true. I have said it before, and I am going to say it again. KILL DO NOT MATTER! Planetside 2 is a combined arms game. You aren't gonna get much done by yourself. It is also NOT a 6v6 arena TDM shooter. You have to capture the points to win the battle. Most points are NOT OUTSIDE! You sniping outside keeps them off the point, but once they get inside, you usually can't do anything about it. You can only dominate when they are outside or when you have a good view of the inside. Usually though, if you have a good view of the inside, you are too close or on their level, and they can shoot you much easier when you are looking through a doorway. You are usually less effective than in the outdoors too.

If you are long range sniping, you aren't going to be helping get on that point, so you are helping defend it when your team already gets on it. When you snipe, you are also helping your team to get on the point by killing the enemies who are trying to get there. It slows them down, which relieves your team. Imagine a stand still battle. One team on one side, the other team on the other, with no mans land in the middle. You are at the side of the battle, high up, 200m away, and you can see both sides of the battle. When you start picking off the medics and the engineers, those heavy assaults going on a spree, taking out your team, shooting those sneaky light assaults off the tops of the buildings, and just all around damaging people already being shot at, you are helping your team. Imagine what it does for your ally when you shoot the enemy that is about to kill him. It relieves him, and he can now take on a different enemy. That allows your team to continue moving forward. Now your team is about to take No Mans Land because the enemies they have killed have stopped being revived, thanks to you killing the medics, they can destroy the sundies because there are no more engineers, they can kill the rest of the infantry in their way because the Heavy Assaults shields have drained, thanks to you shooting them, and the Light Assaults camping on the rooftops are dead. The MAXs are fleeing because you got them Engineers, and now your team can take the base easier than before.

The question is, is that unbalanced? Chances are that you won't be able to kill all these people. Chances are that you are gonna die before them, get flanked by someone, get lit up with bullets, get sniped by another Infiltrator, get blown up by a vehicle, get rotoried by a chaingun mounted to an ESF, or TKd. Chances are you are going to die before you even get to your sniping position. Chances are you won't find any infantry because by the time you do, the battle has ended in one way or another, or it has shifted positions. When the enemies go outside, they are in your realm. When you go inside, you are in theirs. That is how long range sniping works. I don't think, in any way, it is OP. If you gave sniping to any other infantry, they would do the same as the Infiltrator, maybe even better. The Engineer would have unlimited ammo and a turret he can place down if they get closer. The Medic can heal if he gets hit. The Heavy Assaults can tank a headshot if they are being sniped at. The Light Assault can get to superior positions. The MAX can tank shots too and take out targets with extreme prejudice. He could even have 2 snipers mounted to his arms. The Infiltrator can cloak. That helps them get by and get away unnoticed. It doesn't help in a combat situation. It isn't a "Press F for an advantage" scenario. None of the cloaks are. They help you when you run away. They are capable of helping you get into a battle, even of sneaking up on someone, but once you are in the battle, you can't equip that cloak. It'll be the death of you.

What if you are arguing that snipers shouldn't be in the game? That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. This game is immersive. Why would any weapons manufacturer not make snipers? It would make sense to have them, but to take them away, then all you have are automatics and shotguns, maybe Battle Rifles still. What fun is that for a game? Everything is basically carbon copies of each other with their little perks. That wouldn't be a fun game if everything was the same and very generic. By having snipers, you give other players a different playstyle, and it also adds to the game. If you give snipers to another class, they could theoretically function better than the Infiltrator. Ever thought about that?

Then we're going to go on an adventure really quick that will hopefully serve to jump-start your foggy memory. Doing all the work remembering what was said in the argument is irksome, so do pay attention this time.
(some comments are summarized for brevity)

Why are you quoting me back to myself? Are you hoping I'll answer this one for you, too?

You cannot possibly be so dense. You made multiple contradictory statements regarding the strength of the class, and when I called you on it you hemmed and hawwed and said it wasn't meant to be taken literally.

Huh.

You can if it makes you feel better, not that it strengthens your position in any way. How about I concede to 75% so you can feel like you scored a point? If you want to contest the fact that in a meeting engagement between two randoms on a Live server the Heavy doesn't demolish the Infiltrator in the vast majority you're daft.

If they'd wanted to go that route the time to do it would have been in the time immediately following the release, when both the game and the players were still fresh. New player retention or not, at this point the game is being kept afloat by a dedicated community who play and enjoy the game despite its flaws. By in large the community seems to be fairly content and the only really pressing concerns are performance, bugs and cheating. The veterans are still here because this game isn't like anything else on the market, that includes the hugeness and the chaos. Start taking that away and the game will die faster than if it actually did have an overpowered class.

New players that start because "it's just like Battlefield now!" will play until the next BF game and immediately drop it for that. Any why not? How can a 7-year-old game with a ~20 person dev team be expected to compete with AAA titles and their multi-million dollar backers if they're just doing exactly the same thing?

That's your problem, not mine. Don't make the claims if you cannot be bothered to back them up. "Uninvested" is not an excuse for ignorance. Don't worry about debating skills, at this point I'll settle for sources.

Citations Needed

A single video in an isolated circumstance in a public lobby != proof, especially when the video in question is clearly pushing an agenda. The balance of the evidence shows that this kind of performance is the exception, rather than the rule. Also you'll forgive me if I take any evidence provided by you with a grain of salt, given your recent history.

Lets have a look at what exactly is going on as we speak, shall we?
According to Ps2fisu, it looks like Miller has a good-sized active pop (~1000 players).
Lets have a look at the class performance, shall we?



Well, hot dog it looks like the infiltrator is exactly in the middle, barely edging out third-highest kills over all factions combined, while if we look at each individual faction it's basically the same story, with the notable exception being the NC who can only manage 4th despite being the faction notorious both for a difficult to use starter gun for their HA and for being the only faction whose Infils start with a bolt action. Curious.

Looks like the only demonstative superiority the infiltrator has over his peers is not dying. They clearly aren't any more deadly. Not seeing the imbalance here, bud.

Let's look at the top performers at this little slice of time. Maybe there are just one or two really really good infiltrators slaying everyone:



Here they are, lets have a look at our contenders, looks like they've been doing well for themselves



Well would you look at that, a HA main, with LMG kills in his recents feed.



Zounds! Another one!



Another...



I'm sensing a pattern here



Did you really need to guess?

I suppose all of these players are crap too, or maybe I need to cherry pick another time of day? Another server perhaps?

I'll be the first to admit that this is far from conclusive evidence in and of itself, but holy crap is it better than anything you've brought to the table so far seeing as how it both provides an unbiased look at reality while also supporting my argument. They way you've been blundering about one might get the impression that those two things were mutually exclusive.

And during all this analisys you ignored the one thing:

So what you are saying to me is, their most used weapons are snipers, but their best characters are Heavies. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. That means that they are doing better with Heavy Assault Weaponry than Infiltrator Weaponry, so you can't say they are ignoring something. I have said this once and I will say it again, kills don't matter. To argue a class is unbalance, you have to give evidence that they are contributing too much to the endgame, not their personal stats. In a push for a point, AKA, the whole reason there is a battle, you have to be able to contribute to argue unbalance. Infiltrators do not contribute much except for recon, which you can give to any other class and have the same effect. When defending a point, Infiltrators still do not contribute much. Their ability is only useful when you are avoiding players, trying to be unnoticed, and running. They do not help you deal damage and kill.

Basically what I am saying is that yes, snipers rack up a lot of kills when used right, especially when used by an experienced player, but put that on any other class in its current state, and it will do better than the Infiltrator.

It's not STEALTH that's the problem. This new DX11 stealth is exactly what we shoulda had all along. The PROBLEM IS:



...is that stupid knuckle head Higby GAVE THEM CHAIN GUNS that are effective over 40 METERS away!

When I see a stupid TR Harrasser or a MAX with those big beefy arms, I run. I run fast and far. I am on my Wraith Flash, trying to get away, and I know I can't. I know I am dead. After that, I taste the big oof once and for all. THAT IS UNTIL I RESPAWN AND THEY ARE ATTACKING OUR SUNDY!

No. It's you, who mixing personal statistics and per hour server statistics. I'm referring only to second one.
Infiltrators causing frustration and hate not because they, personally each one of them, have sky high KPM and K/D, but because there is ******** of them. People tent to use classes and weapons, which is not in proper balance. Which gives them advantage.
And this is what you see on my screens of per hour server weapon usage statistic.

You have a point there. For example, HA could have been the most popular class X or Y years/months ago and nowadays infiltrators are coming into heavy use. If you look at the sum total HAs has been the meta but things change.

That being said, you can still see other weapons being more popular (or at least get more kills). For instance, two of the images posted we can see both the CARV and MSW-R above the TSAR which means there are enough people using HAs to both have the default and another LMG finishing on top. Also, the CARV and Orion are still popular weapons among TR/VS despite being defaults.

I really wish we'd have access to a large (and current) period of time so we could see trends rather than snippets.

Yeah, players like to win, but you won't win as an Infiltrator. You could probably win in a 1v1 scenario, but that doesn't do anything for the Endgame. Kills do not matter. If you are attacking a base and holding a point, and you make less kills than the defenders, did you lose? No, not necessarily. An Infiltrator has the potential to make lots of kills and stay relatively safe, but that is the life of a sniper. You watch out for other snipers, no matter what class you may be. Even if a Heavy Assault was given the sniper (aka a bad decision), they would still have to watch out for enemy snipers. Same with any other class if they were given a sniper.

My point is still the same. Kills do not matter. To argue that an Infiltrator is unbalanced, you have to give data that supports that they contribute too much to the Endgame. You have to take the whole class into consideration. If you only take weapons, then you can either balance that weapon or that category of weaponry or give it to another class. If it is even worse when put on another class, that didn't solve an issue, and you probably just want to keep things the way they were. If it is a tool, balance it or give it to another class. If it is even worse on another class, put things back to the way they were. If it is an ability, I can't help you there. You can't give an ability to another class if they already have their own abilities. You can try to balance it, but if it is even worse, put things back to the way they were.

I am tired of stats on kills and usage. People like snipers. People like to down a target in 1 hit. Is that so wrong? You should be glad that it is on the Infiltrator class and not the other classes. It would be 2x worse on any other class. Imagine an Engineer with infinite ammo on their sniper. They can sit at a decent range, snipe a few guys, find the sundy, and then put down an AV turret and damage their sundy. Think if it was on a Medic. Hey, I just got shot. Doesn't matter, cuz now I can get full HP and do it all over again. What if it was on a Light Assault? Infinite sniping possibilities. Imagine how easy it would be to get into a tree and snipe or on top of a huge mountain. They could even get on top of buildings. We have already talked a bit about Heavys, but if they had snipers, they could tank a shot and they would be even harder to kill. Infiltrators have the ability to get by undetected by enemies and to escape if they are. Sure, that helps after you have been hit in a sniper battle, but it doesn't compare to what you get when you give it to other classes.

Now that is all for long range sniping, but think CQC sniping. It would be even worse. They would have 100 more health, Heavy would have an overshield, Medic could heal himself while in combat, and Light Assault would keep its same hijinks that few like to be on the receiving end of.

See, you were doing fine except you said this:

I ignored nothing. You will of course note at the top of the screen there is a small notification that reads thusly:



You will also note the date of the post you are quoting:



The date of your response:



I ignored data that wouldn't even exist for a whole week. My what a compelling argument. I must be a clairvoyant.

Cobalt:


Miller:


Soltech:


It's almost like they're constantly changing. Hence my prior statement:

We won't even touch on your pictures yet. Without a key I have no way to analyze your scribbles and what they have to do with anything.

Look at it from this point of view: yes there is a lot of CARV and Orions in use per hour meaning that they have low amount of kills per user, per one person who uses them. That's why i cross out common, widespread weapons: they have, presumably, not quite high average KPM , KDR raiting.

Kills do matter! You looking only on things that affect on repetitive victory conditions. Most influencing factor here is not even classes or weapons, but organized platoon actions.
I'm talking about whole game concept and perception of the game by new players and those who return. Not many of them will tolerate OHK on every corner every 30 sec. Example. You piking out from the corner and see lonely enemy, you starting a "duel" and a moment later infiltrator pops out from a thin air close to your opponent and 0.00001 second later you dead. There is no any counter from your side to this situation. You can't even go back to cover. You just instagibbed right where you are. I don't understand how this situation considered normal for so long time.

I was saying already that i'm not against cloaking or every OHK weapon. But I'm strongly against close range BASRs: Ghost, SASR, Tsar. And yes i want these weapons either gone from game completely or rebalanced.

I'm not going to dig back into the thread to find the reason listed but instead just ask the question: why are we using KPM and such statistics? the devs themselves frequency release class pull rate percentages and have shown that they cater to such information requests from time to time. If you want to find out how often Infiltartors are pulled, why not go directly to the data rather than decudt from a roundabout way?

{1} This is a combined arms game, not a lobby match shooter. "Duels" simply don't exist outside of skyknights and even THAT is only etiquette. You're playing the wrong game.

{2} Sorry bud, but that's just not how de-cloaking mechanics work. Nice try though.

{3} How much time do you have attempting to CQC Snipe? Be honest, it's 0 right? I get the impression that you seem to think it's an instant win button, but that's pretty far from the truth.

Long answer is because combat statistics give an indication of the relative weight of a class on the battlefield. The numbers show that infiltrators do not kill large numbers of enemies relative to their peers. Either there are a very small number of very highly skilled infiltrators dominating everyone they meet or there are a larger number of average infiltrators who are killing enemies relatively infrequently and simply surviving longer than the other classes. Occam's Razor and my own experiences tell me which is more plausible.

Short answer is this thread has a minimal amount of my attention and extrapolating statistics from an easily available resource caters nicely to that.

My 2 cents on this thread:
It's not the cloaking or killing of infil that makes me question balance, it's the scouting ability.

I don't think it's fair that one person can highlight 250 meters of area with his one dart gun, let alone if he is sitting on an engineer packet.

We still see HAs scoring similar in KDR as a class. So even with low performance of new players they manage to get a decent showing in KDR and, usually, a lot more kills. Since the A.KDR is not that much better for infiltrators (and we also know long range snipers inflate this stat, in effect creating a 'vanity stat' which looks good but doesn't net you a lot of kills per hour) we should in a similar vein not assume this means the class as a whole is over-performing.

I do agree that these stats are woefully inadequate. This does mean we got to be extra careful with assumptions since we know these are very much on a moment to moment basis. For example, when I monitored MBTS I saw the Vanguard performing exceptionally well, scoring more kills than even the Magrider and Prowler combined. Though when doing several checks you noticed that there are spikes and slopes in performance, sometimes an absence, sometimes another vehicle shoots to the top, and so on. So I do not think these screenshots are particularly helpful until we can find patterns and trends over time where we can compare kills, unique users, KDR, KPH, etc.

For now, I do not think we can see infiltrators as a class which stands out as being OP without making a lot of assumptions and special conditions.