[Vehicle] Reaver (And other ESF's to a lesser extent) not pleasant to fly.

I'm sure the title says it all. For those amongst us who have mastered the ESF (me not included), this may sound alien. But the Empire Specific Fighters? Not a pleasant experience for the newer player. With the Reaver taking the crown in hard-to-learn gameplay, i find that ESF's are being flown less and less.

The reaver especially lacks a clear design focus. What's it supposed to be? A gunship? Long range fighter? A bomber? It has a hitbox/profile the size of a valkyrie, less maneuverability and it's specific weapon (The 'lol'pods) seem to have limited intended use.

The fact that these one-man aircraft are meant to be cheap and easy to pull is lost due to their high learning curve and risk, versus (relatively) low reward and constant social backlash. (omglolpod nerf plz?) After all, who wants to fly a fragile brick/mossie/scythe with a gun and an extra large afterburner reserve when they can drive a lightning around for about the same price and get more out of it?

Simply put: You won't get new players trying out the empire specific fighters because you're pitting them against people who have more experience and weapons than they do. Again: This is the case for ALL sides, not just the new players who are basically avoiding the Reaver alltogether, you are required by design to drive around in a tank or run around as infantry for dozens of hours before you can even think about touching that shiny aircraft.

As a sidenote: For those of you who state that the reaver is an ambush fighter: I'm calling nonsense. Empire specific fighters are meant to be tools used in a variety of situations. Developing a fighter aircraft that can only be used in one situation defeats the purpose of the aircraft, and sets it behind it's competitors in viability. After all, it is a fighter, not an apache gunship.

This is just feedback from my experiences. Yours may have been different, though i doubt anyone can deny the Reaver's current state, and the overarching issues new players will face when wanting to fly each faction's fighter.

ESFs really have an identity crisis and there is no solution to the problem currently. In small-scale fights ESFs can dominate because of hit-and-run tactics with powerful a2g weaponry, but in larger fights they are immediately shut out by lock-ons and flak. There is pretty much no way solo fighters can contribute to any meaningful fight, all they can really do is farm.

The only time I have ever experienced any tactical use out of my ESF was when we grouped up in my outfit, the leader pointed out targets and we grouped up and took them out, although to less effect than we would have if we just charged as a bunch of heavies with the standard rocket launcher.

The main use I think it should have would be just that: a precision-based strike vehicle. You have your target called out for you and you take that out. The problem is that in large-scale fights your render distance goes down to 20 meters and it's pretty much impossible to see your target before you're dead to flak. And there is no supported system for pointing out targets properly in the game, solo players cannot contribute to fights in that way.

Jiggu, you totally get my point! ESF's need an overhaul. The thing is? Look at what the reaver gets for weaponry: We're basically required to hover within 50m of our target to get kills. Whoever thought the Airhammer was a good idea needs a reality check. Shotguns work as infantry deterrent on tanks and close quarters weapons for infantry. NOT for an (intended) low-durability high-velocity aircraft! Also: For those who don't know? The Airhammer starts with a magazine size of 3. No typo, no mistake. 3 shots, then you get the full 6-ish second reload. You can upgrade it, but...come on. This weapon makes no sense.

For a revamp, they might need to look into a laser designation system weapon for the recon (thus giving them a powerful anti-vehicle weapon). And give the ESF's better engagement ranges. The way they are now, the only thing i'd want is my certs and SC back!

Also: Hornet missiles. Those things are useless for the brick. Missiles whose accuracy relies on a fighter's agility? I'm sorry, but..what were the devs smoking? How did they think this was a fair and balanced weapon to include when all three ESF's have a different maneuverability factor? Turn these into laser lockon missiles and you'll have use out of them, otherwise? Cut them out. They make little sense in their current iteration.

lol Hornets. I find these things rather hard to control in VR Training, where I don't have two billion people shooting at me. Same goes for the Valkyrie's guided missile.

Crosshair-guided weapons really have no place on an air vehicle, which is an inherently unstable platfrom that also happens to get constant attention from the enemy, It is definitely something FAR better suited for ground-based platforms and I really wonder why the devs decided it's a good idea to make them an aerial-based-only weapon.

Exactly. The ESF is full of questionable design decisions that seem to make little sense. Why not redesign the damn thing to be more anti-air based? As it stands, we have two vehicles with practically nothing BUT anti ground weapons, and then the ESF with weapons that are mostly anti ground.. Yeah, it has a few options for anti-air, but it's focus has shifted from a one-man options machine to a derpy air to ground farming combine with some anti-air thrown in.

Well the difficulty with hornets is baking in your aiming with your movement. Personally I'd like a large velocity buff for them, as I can pretty much outrun them myself using afterburner. They're a bit tricky, feels like they're affected by gravity so you have to aim above your target at all times for them to actually hit your real target. But I think hornets as a design are great, they really fit the precision hit-and-run role I talked about.

You just swoop in, unload both rockets and hightail out of there.

I'm no air jock....anyone who professes to be good in the air could likely shoot me down. However....Hornets? I love them...I drop vanguards and prowlers on the regular...all the time. I will go out there with my nosecannon and hornets and come back with a 100 cert run. I can snipe AA maxs on the fly by and direct hit them with both missiles....hit infantry....

I know there is a lot of hate for them....but I just feel no one really puts the time in to learn them. The crazy **** you can do with hornets is amazing.

Remember they are shot from below your cockpit by quite a bit. SO they go in a straight line from there......you are aiming DOWN when you shoot them so yes. They continue down...you need to bring them up just a tiny bit. As long as you crosshair's are on the ground they continue to move toward the ground even if by a small amount all the time. If you aim in the sky your straight ahead they will not drop. What I will do is fire down BELOW my target then sweep my crosshair UP well past my target so I can maintain speed with my ESF so I'm not floating flak or Vanguard bait. This usually has the missile come in low and hit your targets to confuse them on where the damage came from.

i've found splash damage is very weird in VR. Try the duster....it doesn't even damage infantry unless you direct hit them in VR. But in the game world it's very effective.

Hornets are a bit of the same. Go for butt shots on vehicles or go home...unless it is an already damaged vehicle. You can kill prowlers/mags with 4 rounds.....vanguards usually take 6.

Also hornets are pretty effective against infantry. They have a healthy splash...nothing to crow about but the damage is decent. But a direct hit will kill an infantry. Which isn't so hard if you put some work into them and understand their speed. I think an increase of velocity would make them OP. But I'm a minority on this opinion.

I fly mossie's most but I like the reaver a lot. It has such awesome thrust with racer frame. It's AB speed is unparalleled, and the airhammer is so damn fun.

Yes it takes a long time to fly well and also takes a certain type of gamer. Not just tryhards but those who like air combat and are obsessed with it.
Those who respect the old aces of wwii like gabbi gabreski and James Buerling.

The VR problem should (apparently) be fixed now.

#PeasantProblems2014

This problem has only been a big deal recently, since all servers have 2 continents (or 1 for briggs) unlocked at a time.

I taught a friend to fly and fall in love with ESFs by just running a 2 man squad on Amerish back when there was 4 continents. It usually only had a squad or 2 on it at a time, so they could learn basic dogfighting (jousting) and practice flying without the gigantic risk factor. Once they had mastered the basics then you bring them to indar (the 24/7 fight) and have them learn to master it again against the bigger risks.

Sure you can do probably do the same thing in VR, but when someone is getting a kill amongst all the fails it makes the learning a lot easier as they feel encouraged to keep trying. Basically learning in a REAL context is always a lot more encouraging, but now that every fight is a giant fight generally with AA and pro-pilots there is nowhere for them to learn anymore.

That's the thing though: The ESF's are good in situations. But as it has been explained: They're farming threshers, not ESF's. You get one, you will spend your entire flight time hunting for easy targets and stragglers throughout the map rather than help make a difference in a larger scale battle. I find this rather disappointing, seeing as every other vehicle actually has a role in there, even the one-man buggy!

You're half right.

Vehicles lacking transport capability or are limited in it, are the ones lacking a role, this includes, ESF, Libs, Flash, Harasser, MBT, Lightning, and the Valk. If you think about it, they're best at killing stuff, in a game where killing someone means they will be back in 10-15 seconds.

Now we all know that a vehicle listed above can camp a spawn room. And in many cases that can 'help' an attacking force take a base. But they had to sweep the base on foot for that condition to happen. And this is thwarted by a coordinated defensive air drop. In fact such a drop is a direct counter because all of a sudden, the infantry camping the point are gone, the vehicles are getting wrecked, and the defenders are pouring out as before.

But back to the subject at hand. While most vehicles are lacking a role, the ESF's have an even greater problem.

They're crazy hard to get into. And I've been studying these threads, replying to them, and seeing the responses I get from some of my implications and questioning.

First problem with ESF. Out of all the vehicles, including air vehicles like the Valk, Lib, or Gal, it is the hardest and most time consuming to learn. When asked how to learn a ESF, the common response from the ESF community is simply to spend a few hours in the VR practicing and possibly get a tutor on the PTS.

My first reaction to this is why does it have to be like that? Why does the ESF reserve the right to be the only vehicle in the game that should be like that? Why can't it be as easy to pick up as a tank or galaxy?

The responses were sort of weird. Many in the ESF community state that its the only skill based platform in the game. That it would ruin -Their- gameplay if it was changed.

What are the consequences of this problem? Personally I think its holding back the ESF from being given a future role and being as powerful as it probably should be. Like the Poster I quoted said, you pretty much have to pick off stragglers and cannot get close to the battle. Well why is that? Well simply because if they could, the ones who haven't touched the ground since 2012 would have an overwhelming advantage. Basically the side with the greater number of sky aces would win.

Because think about what it would take to get them close to the battle. A sky ace, no matter how good they are, are deterred by numerous Bursters, Skyguards, and Lockons. He could be the son of god himself and still be turned away. But if those threats were toned down so he could get closer, what would be able to counter him? Another ESF. But not just anyone could take an ESF and chase him off. It'd have to be someone of somewhat equal skill or they're going down and quick. Even multiple people at once will have issues, unless one of them is at least as good.

This doesn't happen on the ground. 2 to 1, good tankers can still win, but are usually routed in the process. Same thing on foot. Attrittion works better on ground then in the air.

That's only the first problem.

The Second problem with ESFs is one I've only come to an epiphany on recently. Using a ESF skillfully is NOT required in all of its roles. What I mean here is you DON'T need to practice in the VR for hours, and DON'T need a tutor at all. IF and only IF you are fighting against ground. Yeah you need to know how to deal with lockons and avoid flak. But its very much like dodging sniper fire on foot. You adjust your angle of the attack.

You don't need to dogfight, and you don't need to reverse maneuver. In fact, all you really need to do to avoid such stuff is point at Warpgate and hit Shift, or press F. Now understand that I am over simplifying the actual procedure. But the point is, you don't normally need to do as much as you do when fighting air.

So to put it simply. The problem here is ground attack is MUCH easier to do then Countering other ESF. It doesn't require nearly as much effort to learn to fight ground as it does air. In fact most routine pilots learned to fight air first, then eased into ground attack roles. That's how I did it back when I was piloting, neutralize the air threats by destroying them or chasing them off, then engage the ground.

The Consequences to this second problem compound the first. And of course it holds the ESF back. Because an ace pilot would wreck even multiple threats in the air. They could do some truly devastating effects on the battle field if his opponents did not include an ace pilot of their own.

So the solution?

Lower the skill ceiling and floor on the ESF to match that of the the other vehicles in the game. The only detriment is the damage of the ego of skilled pilots. But we would have more pilots able to deal with each other and more ESF in general. Then we can see them get buffs and roles added to them without fear of needing a skilled player in order to counter another.

Right now we have a high skill platform countered by no skill counters. And it sucks for both sides. If the skill needed was more in line with other vehicles, then these counters could be fundamentally changed. This isn't to suggest to take ALL skill away from a good player.

Basically a good analogy between two tanks. If one tank is driven by a superior tanker. The results would be in the death of the inferior tanker. But the superior one would still have damage. In the air with ESFs, the superior pilot isn't damaged and is like 1-2 clips down in ammo as the only 'expenditure' of their effort. So lowering the skill floor of the ESF to match that of tanks would yield a similar situation.

Good players would still win. But they'd have to return back for repairs or let NAR tick away, just like tankers have to. And being faced with more than one opponent means victory isn't a likely outcome.

Let's take some of the issues we've discussed and put them in a line:

-The ESF's have a high skill-ceiling/high cert/skill floor, making it daunting to learn/get into.
-The ESF's have little to add to a proper teamfight relative to their costs, being just under 30% more expensive than the Valkyrie.
-The ESF's have alot of hard counters, and as a result seems to have few viable applications outside of a team fight, and none in them.
-The ESF's specific bonuses are lopsided rather than unique: It's amazing the Reaver gets the fastest afterburner... but then proceeds to only get 2 seconds worth. Reavers are in fact slower than other ESF's in any other shape or form, without any compensation for the lack of speed. (Feel free to check in the VR room if you can, if not: Mosquitoes are the fastest, Scythes have the middle ground, Reavers are about 20km/h slower than the reavers at any given time. Except for using AB's or nosediving. Have fun charging anything that knows you're there.)

To expand on the last point. These things are called empire specific FIGHTERS. Why are they so slow and ungainly?! Aren't these things supposed to be hit and run ships and/or interceptors?

There's essentially 2 problems with PS2's Air game.



1) is that PS2 flight is just plain awkward (which isn't really the same thing as difficult or high skill) and the default setup misses out a few things. A vast amount of what is wrong with PS2s Air could be fixed by making things less awkward - they may HAVE to do this for the PS4.


2) They rolled what should have been two seperate fighters (1x A2A and 1x A2G) into one A2A/A2G ESF superfighter. A vast amount of what is wrong with PS2 Air could be fixed with a genuine A2A fighter that either could not hover or could not fire when doing so (which would make it much more ineffective against ground targets).

I really think that the ESF's should be anti air.

They're a bit too survivable for fighting forces that cannot chase after them (AKA, anything that's not air) with exception to ground based AA (which is susceptible to literally everything else).

But as the aircraft world's harassing tool, it fits in well.
Fly up, plink in some damage, fly out.

I just don't get it.

How can begging for the game to be made easier be more interesting than taking on the challenge and beating it?

I think lots of people left this game because of the "make it easier" culture. Sad...this game had so much to give.

Flying is difficult not because it was made to be, people mind's are not used to 3 dimensional movement and the fast speed you move at causes your mind to blank out. Do any of you remember driving for the first time? At first you only drive slowly, despite having probably sat in a fast moving car for years. It takes hours of practice before your mind is conditioned to control that vehicle on an highway. Flying is the same, whereas your mind is already conditioned to run around on foot or in tanks. That's the only learning curve there is.