Reasons for why the NC has the best Weapons/Vehicles for long term use.

This is not a Whine/QQ/Nerf the NC Thread

Lately I've been seeing lots of different posts about the NC being OP across the board, and a lot of stats tables proving this isn't true. I'd like to share my overall opinion on this topic as a dedicated TR player who fights the NC much more than the Vanu, and as someone who has observed a great many things on the forums and in the game.

Obviously this thread is of a fairly controversial nature and one that will likely result in statements of L2P, QQ more, and "Oh look another TR player with a victim disposition." However that being said I hope that by establishing some credibility through my Ultimate Combined Arms Gameplay thread, which has resulted in a significant developer response, that I will be taken somewhat seriously by the community and that we can keep this thread civil and not locked.

Stat Table Inaccuracies

I would first like to point out that stats tables of players using weapons/vehicles should only be used for reference for BR 50+ players who have also used said weapon or vehicle to get at least 1000 kills. This is for the simple fact that BR 50+ with 1000 kills on said weapon/vehicle will have likely bought all of the best attachments available for their weapon/vehicle, and will have invested significant certs into said weapon/vehicle so they can get the optimum results from it. This allows us to look at what the weapon is truly capable of, rather than look what it is capable of uncerted or in the hands of a fourth Factioner or Novice Player.

Why the NC don't appear to be the best at first glance

1. Many people switch to the faction they perceive to be OP, NC currently, because they don't have the skills that allow them to remain competitive in their current faction. These people are typically lower skilled and lower BR resulting in lower overall scores in whatever they use.

2. The NC faction appeals to the younger generation through their "freedom" message, rock themes, and the voice commands that even sound like middle-highschool children "Can anyone fix this!?" or "I think I broke it!" No offense to the younger generation of gamers, but they are often the less skilled greifing, QQing, the doesn't work well with others types, and the COD kiddie types that everyone loves to hate. This also allows for the NC to have huge overall numbers, but it is much like throwing lots of peasants into a battle of Knights. Sure you have a lot more guys as NC, but that doesn't mean your entire force will coordinate as well as the TR/VS force which consists of mostly knights.

3. The NC has the majority of the Forth faction. The fourth faction types are much less likely to belong to an outfit since they have no faction loyalty, and this reduces their overall coordination and teamwork ability. This also adds to why they are the cannon fodder zerg types that organized outfits love to destroy, and is partially why I have always had more NC than Vanu kills on Mattherson. I say the NC has the vast majority of the fourth faction because their population continues to increase with each passing update.

4. Believe it or not the NC Max is still the best CQC MAX, is still is used the most, gets the highest score among higher BR players, and still liquifies other MAXes post nerf. Once you invest in extended mags for the Hacksaws, and kinetic level 5 armor, I challenge someone to show me that it does worse than the TR/VS max in 7 m or less. This however doesn't stop low BR players and fourth factioners from trying to pull an uncerted Max thinking it will still be as OP as it once was to make up for their lack of skill.

5. The Gauss Saw along with the EM6 are arguably the best LMG's in the game once certed into. However the low BR players that don't realize you have to invest 400 certs into them to make them the best in the game, and thus often die with an uncerted Gauss Saw. This lowers their overall scores making it appear not the best even though they indeed are. This also often leads to garbage statements from low BR players like "The Gauss Saw/ EM6/ NC weapons are garbage unlike the CARV." Yet at the same time pretty much every 50+ BR TR player I know of would kill for a Gauss SAW let alone an EM6. There's a reason why most TR HA's are carrying around the TMG-50 which is the slowest firing LMG TR have. We'd rather have an inferior version of the Gauss Saw/ EM6, and even sacrifice our faction specific advantage of high ROV, because low ROF high damage guns are more accurate, have a nicer spread, and recoil is easier to adjust for.

6. For the Vanguard- It's the best certed tank in the game, but the worst tank by far uncerted. So naturally it under performs when low BR and fourth factioners try to spam it without investing into it. The uncerted Vanguard starting out is extremely slow, can't maneuver well, and can't fight against uncerted Prowlers and Magriders nearly as well overall.

However, once you cert into arguable the best ability in the game which comes with no disadvantage, the Uber shield, invest certs into the now better than the "old OP Saron" Enforcer ML85 (which is basically a slightly better version of the Halberd), and give the Vanguard Racer 3 it becomes the best tank for multiple things
A. One shotting ESF'S and doing damage to aircraft from all ranges
B. TankVTank combat when the shield doesn't bug (the developers really need to fix this really old bug )
C The best tank to survive a 1.5 second rocketpod death.
D. The best tank for surviving many situations it shouldn't have. However non of this becomes apparent until you've heavily certed into the Vanguard.

7. The Reaver still under performs compared to the other ESF's, but that doesn't stop everyone from trying to fly it. This results in even lower overall scores for the Reaver than it truly deserves. In addition the Reaver scales in performance with the skill of the user much more so than with other ESF's, and is overall a harder ESF to pick up than the Mosquito or Scythe.

8. The NC has a faction specific disadvantage of minor recoil, which while laughable among skilled FPS users, is of great detriment to the lower skilled user who may not be an experienced FPS player. This is often why the Vanu is seen the easiest faction to start off with since their weapons have little to no vertical or horizontal recoil, and very little spread.

Closing Remarks

1. Whether you agree or disagree I just wanted to relay what I have observed in the hopes I could clear up some confusion on why people feel the NC is OP. I don't feel that the NC are OP in the hands of a novice player or fourth factioner. However I believe their best weapons and all their vehicles, with the sole exception of the Reaver, offer much greater rewards for a skilled player than any other faction once you properly invest certs into them

2. I have no idea how to balance the NC, because while I think they have the best faction equipment/vehicles in every category but the ESF for the skilled long term player ; They are at the same time not the best for the unskilled FPS player/ casual player not looking to invest certs into more defined roles.

3. I have accounts on all 3 factions in order to test all weapons out to try and minimize bias outside of what I can't get from NC/VS friends and gameplay and the VR room.

Thanks for taking the time to read this thread, any constructive comments are highly appreciated.

What I see here is nothing to back up things. You announce that the EM6/Gauss Saw and Vanguard are OP when certed without doing anything to even slightly back up those claims.

I would say the situations you put forward for why the Vanguard performs better are unsubstantiated and vague at best. (I would like to mention that one shotting aircraft is not a widescale tactical advantage either.)

I'd also like to see a lot more proof about fourth faction claims and low skill players pulling the numbers down. Seems very easy to exaggerate the effect these things have.

Thirdly: If the vast majority of a faction use equipment that is non or partially certed..and that non certed equipment you would agree performs worse..can that faction also be considered OP?

Something else that I've been thinking about lately is that higher rate of fire weapons actually scale with skill more.
That being: the time it takes to kill somebody scales faster than the lower rate of fire weapons; providing you can land an equivalent or slightly higher number of headshots.

That last thing is more a theoretical point than anything. I just felt like playing devil's advocate, badly, to some degree.

Don't ruin your credibility!

TBH I agree that a faction that has highest 1shot damage will always provide the highest skill threshold for players to master. I don't see an imbalance however, as firstly, there are plenty of cross faction alpha strike weapons (pumps, bolt-actions, dalton) and secondly, just because certain faction specific weapons have a steeper learning curve does not mean that the faction also comes with compatible players for that weapon.

There are way more NC players that would benefit highly from using the equivalent empires alternative, I'm sure.

One thing you have to keep in mind with stuff like the Reaver and Gauss SAW is that, while they do scale very well with user skill, this is an MMOFPS where armies fight armies and the bulk of said armies are not super-skilled.

That is to say: if you take 10 pilots (2 very good, 2 good, the other 6 mediocre-to-bad) and give them Reavers and pit them against a similar configuration of Scythes, the NC won't necessarily win because the 6 bad-to-mediocre Scythes will outperform their Reaver counterparts. Bad Scythes, btw, are absolutely amazing at 1-shotting good pilots via ramming and must be feared.

At close to medium ranges I feel a Carv9/Orion type weapon still wrecks the Gauss SAW when both are wielded by average players or players with poor FPS. Again, the average soldier is just... an average soldier with ~20% accuracy or worse on his automatics and poor fire control. Under such conditions the Gauss SAW suffers the most as it loses the most damage per miss.

From my experience playing TR and VS on other servers (BR ~50 on both) I can safely say that the NC do seem to have more fodder and that badly aimed Gauss SAWS get devoured by the faster firing LMGs.

The TMG50 is actually an incredible weapon that beasts the EM6 at med to long range due to its higher velocity and superior horizontal recoil reduction. I've medalled every single NC LMG to Auraxium and I must say the TMG50 is a treasure.

The VS have the best selection of LMGs in the game overall. Between the Pulsar LSW with its 0.3 recoil and 700RPM and the 167 dmg Ursa with its very low 0.4 recoil and 640 velocity and two very strong 75% ADS guns, the VS heavies are spoiled silly.

The Vanguard is the best tank-v-tank tank but suffers horribly versus infantry, which are majority of the time what a tank will face in the field.

There's nothing wrong with having NC equipment scale better with skill because, ultimately, they all perform worse when the skill isn't there. There are a lot of players per faction, and the majority won't get more out of a Reaver than they would a Scythe/Mosquito or a Gauss SAW compared to another LMG.

I'm not claiming they are OP, or asking for nerfs, as I stated in the header. Does the mossy/Scythe being better than the Reaver make them OP? No.

I'm not making use of stat tables, because I don't have ones that consist of BR 50+ Players that over 1000 kills for select weapons/vehicles. Again I posted this as an observation, feel free to dispute them. I merely wanted to set the table on why I think the NC is rewarding for higher skill players and players who want to invest lots of certs into dedicated roles.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AmUavphHXmIxdFhHUzJfN1VYalRnWS0xMnBUdTJpM1E&gid=27

So little room for discussion. Flaming though...

I'll say this just for the bumpage:

NC weapons - high skill ceiling in general, or very attachment reliant. SAW is beast when certed into. Gauss rifle is beast right out of the box, and only gets better with attachments, but newbs don't get their hand held with a weak <=> recoil pattern like their carbine hence the claims to how good the mercenary is out of the box. By and large, NC weapons tend to have overall high vertical recoils, which despite the low <=> recoils, pulling back on the mouse when engaging at long distances One may inadvertently drift their aim to the side. Still, high power, fast reloads (in general...) very accurate in good hands.

VS weapons - Low skill ceiling. Efficient and easy to use. These definitely live up to their moniker of being the most CoD-like in function and handling. Overall, their weapons lack any real strengths, but they're hardly weak either. Attachments only make them better. They have some real skill based weapons, but they don't quite pop out like the other two empires weapon selection, possibly because of the already low vertical and horizontal recoils without accompanying high RPMs in general. The NS-15M is probably more difficult to work with regarding their LMG's. Probably.

TR weapons - Either low skill or high skill. Low skill weapons such as the T1 Cycler and T9 Carv with attachments perform like stock VS weapons... only with more ammo and sometimes even more RPM. T1S Cycler with fore-grip? Same thing as a VS1 Pulsar +10 rounds and +50 RPM. T9 Carv with foregrip? Same recoils as the stock Orion +50 rounds. High skill offers ridiculous DPS and accuracy in the hands of a good player. I'm looking at the MSW-R, TAR/TRV, and carbine of choice here. The TAR and TRV probably fall in as some of the most unwieldy weapons in game given their RPM and recoil values (RPM exasperates recoils,) but are extremely rewarding when mastered due to sheer DPS potential, even with 112 damage minimum rounds over longer distances.

It should be noted I'm positive fore-grips reduce vertical recoil as well as horizontal. Could be a placebo effect, but even if it's just psychological, if it works for me, it works for me.

Using personal assumptions to validate the SPH arguments is classy. NC has the lowest SPH though has probably most varied gameplay.

Thank you posting ThundaHawk, I agree completely with your statements, and it's nice to have a high BR player with great experience and skill on all 3 factions.

Also, I hope that inner radius splash damage is at some point increased again so that MBT shells landing directly at the feet of infantry one hit kill them. This will help the Vanguard out immensely, and make for overall better balance between the MBT's.

I'll try not to ruin my credibility, and what I hope people realize is that this isn't a nerf the NC thread. I sincerely want to end the discussion of NC being OP in every possible circumstance as some players hold. That and further clarify the scenarios in which they are the best and when they are not. I see so many garbage threads about the NC, and I want it to come to an end to make the forums a better place.

Problem is the visual design of each faction.

Why NC seems to be the most powerful is because they have the most aesthetically pleasing weapons and gear. They have guns that Look like Guns... Their tanks look like Tanks.

TR guns look like toys, with their rounded edges so the kids don't poke out their eyes... Their tank is a lunch box with a dimple on top... Their ESF looks like a floating Hot dog... Everything in TR is too rounded. If they added more straight and solid defined edges to all the weapons and gear, a majority of the players would feel more powerful as they would feel that they where using weapons and not toys.

VS guns look like something straight out of a Sci-fi B movie... Impractical and designed with little to no sense in mind... I mean the SMG has Horns on the tail of it! What purpose does that serve!? Although i think that they are moving in the right direction because if the Lasher is any hint of whats to come, having stuff that dramatically moves as you apply power to it is an interesting and futuristic style of design which gives the player a sense of power and control.

The SPH argument? What does this consist of, as I'd be grateful to have additional information on the issue? Also, this is based off observations and personal experience, and I said that outright

Do you have access to a spread sheet that lists BR 50+ Players? I'd be grateful to have said information

Very True,but wouldn't you agree with the statement that the Vanguard is the worst uncerted tank, yet arguably the best tank when fully certed and when the Uber Shield works?

Well, that's a **** load of conjecture and hearsay with absolutely nothing to back it up, isn't it?

You yourself have only just hit the BR50 mark, so why is it when you're openly saying you should only compare the performance of a weapon at that point, you feel you're qualified to make such judgements as 'NC players are largely fourth faction', much less any statement of game balance?

The most important comparison of weapons is on players BELOW BR 50 with LESS than 1000 kills with a weapon, as that is the VAST MAJORITY of the playerbase at any one time.

This is an MMOFPS, and a free-to-play at that. What is OP is what is easiest. If going from 10% skill to 100% skill changes your score from 10/100 to 100/100 with one weapon, and 10% skill to 100% skill changes your score from 50/100 to 70/100, you know which one I'd rather have on my team? The latter; so would any one that's here to PTFO and not be a glory hog obsessed with their own personal skill.

It has long been known that there is a higher skill ceiling for high damage, low rof weapons (this was worked out in 1.6, if not Quake) and that high rof, high accuracy weapons are more 'n00b friendly' but scale less well with skill. This is not news.

Perhaps you could share your valauble knowledge with me Phazaar because I merely want to end the controversy I see on the forums from day to day. I don't think this is news for you or I, but it is for a lot of players or else these constant nerf the NC threads would go away.

I think the NC posses large amounts of the fourth faction, not that they consist solely of it. Look no further than Helios/Briggs to see what I'm saying. Mattherson also provides a good example as it was a perfectly even 33% 3 way split post merge, and now the NC often posses the most population at any given time.

It's nice that I just hit BR 50, however I often found tables with BR 50+ players more useful than those who had only played 60 minutes.

I am sorry, you are not lvl 50 on NC yet. Judging by your own suggestion I shall not consider your opinion as valid.
I mean really - if you make a statement - try to back it up with something. All your statements are just pulled out off thin air. Esp. I like the part about "NC are mostly pesants, while TR are knights " Yeah, that is scientific fact... not. Some people join factiobecause the weapons of that faction are more apealing to them. I prefer heavy-hitters and that is why I prefer NC. Really most of my friends selected NC in beta because the weapons were fun to use.

I wish I could like this post more than once. Absolutely fantastic, every single point is true.
Great work on that post. Still going to have deal with the "LOL TR CLAIMING NC IS OP LOLOLOL" trolls later on I bet.

oh, it's one of these kind of threads.

Ew.

So the OP believes he is actually disadvantaged in continuing to play his faction, and yet chooses to do so anyways.

Congratulations, you must be "special".