Realtalk: Planetside vs Forumside, slippery slope edition. The whining ends here.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by UberBonisseur, Mar 16, 2014.

  1. UberBonisseur

    After the recent (constant ?) uproars concerning the latest patch(es), I think it's time for forumside to settle down and have a real talk and express the source of their concerns. No ********, no moaning, this will be done with a cool head and 36 months of experience from playing the game


    I've stopped playing PS2 for a few months; that was both before and after the performance update.
    There was nothing for me there, I gave it a try after the update only to get the same gameplay with some more FPS.

    At that time, I don't think it was a burn-out.
    There are games I've stuck with for thousands of hours, over years. Communities, guilds, outfits help, as you come back for the people. And that's the problem, I felt that I played the game only to spend time with some outfit members I liked, and not for the game itself. It was just a confort zone I didn't want to leave.


    So why am I telling you this ?

    Because I'm still following the game closely, hoping that it would deliver the "true Planetside experience".
    Unfortunately, it feels like there's a downhill trend going on for many months... it's a sort of feeling. Feeling that can only be expressed through anger and long winded rants on Forumside. So why all the hate ?
    --------------------
    The dreaded Forumside
    [IMG]


    Every patch, you've got this recurring thread calling for SOE's "incompetence".
    It doesn't matter the subject, it can be a nerf, a bug, a base change, whatever. You'll always have the most basic, low effort post saying that SOE messes up every single patch in one way or another.

    Yes, a rushed patch is rushed and you've got rights to complain as a customer if toys you bought with money are now broken, or when it didn't go through a testing phase in the first place. In this case, it's about making sure the dissatisfaction is heard and it never happens again.

    But when it comes to design decisions, that's a different beast.
    There's a internal war in Forumside. A civil, non-civic war.

    The consensus ? "SOE sucks".
    Yet the argument goes back and forth like a pendulum. Silly example: Half of forumside wants defensible bases, half of forumside will complain that the base is too defensible. Half of forumside wants vehicles to be powerful, half of forumside wants to reduce the ammount of vehicles.

    You've got many opinions, all over the place, about different subjects, and rarely consensual.

    The more vague the claim, the more upvotes it gathers.
    However, when you get to the specifics, the discussion drags and in the end... no one agrees
    Forumside is a swamp; hazy, confusing, and dirty, where fear takes over reason
    [IMG]

    --------------------------


    So let me express this fear using reason.
    Let me decrypt, from my personal experience, what I feel is wrong with the game.
    This is my friendlist every evening:
    [IMG]
    About 95% of the people I've played with stopped logging in
    Without the feeling of "outfit" and community, without a good leader working himself every day to create events and push members into a fight, without this energy and will to make an otherwise tedious ghost cap into a fun trip, players just fall apart like a house of card, leaving only lonewolves and husks of outfits.

    Leaders could not pretend anymore
    I've been in about 3-4 outfits that all decayed. It's not the players themselves, but outfit and squad leaders that just dropped the ball, and the members followed for a lack of interest. It takes a HUGE effort to get people playing together, to maintain cohesion and create an achievable goal.
    Alas, the repetitive nature of endless conflict grew weary, and the honeymoon phase started to fade away. Those friends I had, those outfit leaders were PS1 vets. I was myself seeing PS2 as the FPS messiah. Sadly, we had those lenghty discussions in game in between two captures.
    That feeling of loss, regret and decay.


    "Disgruntled PS1 veterans" who carried the legacy and knowledge of anotherwise niche game were aggravated by the lack of "Planetside" in PS2. After all, what makes Planetside ?

    Huge zergs ? Big continents ? Vehicles ? Tons of explosions ?
    It was depth with no equal.

    The game played like a RTS with real humans doing the footwork. In this aspect, Planetside always was superior in depth to every single competitor in the FPS category for the ten years to come. It maintained a sense of persistence, with the overarching goal being complete domination. It had complex systems that still maintained balance on a scale never matched before.

    Fear not, said Higby
    Could it be that we're just not getting content fast enough, and still waiting on those new continents ?
    Yes and no.

    Did a lack of global vision made SOE handle the matter poorly ?
    I don't know what was the original vision for PS2. The pendulum kept swinging during beta; and still is. You can barely recognize their initial intentions when so many things are changing, to name a few:
    • The complete removal of the Lattice system
    • The remake of THREE continents to fit the lattice
    • The failure of the resource system
    • The 2000 player cap, now lowered
    It's been a year and a half, and I can't tell the game has changed for the better, aside for performance update.
    It never felt like there was a pressing need for a cohesive whole. The last year of updates were entirely counterproductive to the create of actual new content.
    The overall structure of PS2 never was solid, it's illusive, and we're still chasing after it in the roadmap.
    Worst ? New content in PS2 is recycled content from PS1

    ----------------------------------

    And that's where Forumside tends to lose its ****. Where passions go wild and spirits heat up.



    "Dumbing down, CoDisation, BFisation, lowest common denominator, casualisation, low standards, streamlined" are used too easily and too often, yet...

    Yet I can't see where it wouldn't fit.
    PS2 traded a lot in order to fit within the standards of the modern shooter. There are a huge ammount of undeniable similarities to BF and CoD. PS1 was qualified as "ahead of its time"; PS2 would be a product of its time, with some ambition added.

    I would really like to deny it; I would really like to say:
    "PS2 is PS1 improved in every single way !"

    It improved in some areas. It regressed on plenty.
    Recently, I stumbled upon this video. There's a Buzzcutpsycho inside. And as much as you can hate the guy, as obnoxious you think he is, as drunk as he can be during this talk, weed out the personal talk and listen to the rest; sadly, he is accurate about the state of the game. That was 4 months ago

    Is this the negative side speaking ? Or is it just the F2P model causing this ? Is it rose-tinted glasses ?


    Maybe.
    It's still a fun game. In the mindless fun sense of way.

    After all, the more you think about it and the less fun you tend to have... so should I completely forget about all this and enjoy the game for what it is, a big team deathmatch ?
    Probably, but it's always sad to lower your expectations when you get hyped in the first place.

    Planetside 2 is a good game, certainly deeper than most of the other FPS out there, with unmatched scale. But it isn't the masterpiece it could have been.



    tl;dr
    Long and personal rant about my experience in PS2 so far, how I had high hopes for the game and ended up with low expectations as the overall design decisions stray away from "the true Planetside experience"
    • Up x 27
  2. Tuco

    I don't usually say this but tl; dr
    • Up x 1
  3. Eugenitor

    Their solutions aren't solutions, and they tend to create solutions for problems that don't exist.

    Coyote missiles? Pump-action shotguns? Naked, unshamed cash grabs. Did anyone really want air combat to be defined by "get in the general vicinity of the enemy and spam"? The original autoshotguns are already viciously OP in their role, which is a role that the new bases enforce with a vengeance.

    Lattice/hex? The problem was (and still, so badly, is) unopposed zergs- the tendency for people to bunch up into huge groups to fight no one at all. Still happens, only in lanes, and it's embarrassing at this point- I've seen the whole army go to only one of the linked bases. I nearly took the other one by myself. (Yup, all three continents latticed, and I'm still ghosting/soloing bases!) A better solution was always needed, but SOE couldn't think of one despite them being offered wholesale.

    The (original) Crown provided a nice bleed-off for these people by giving them a more or less permanent fight. And yet someone at SOE, under the advice of a few nitwits on Forumside, decided that such an ongoing fight was a bad thing. THIS THING IS A HUGE, NATURAL PLAYER ATTRACTANT! CLEARLY NO ONE LIKES IT AND WE MUST GET RID OF IT!

    Tanks shelling into spawn rooms prompted the transformation of Esamir into Wallamir, and now the transformation of Amerish into Wallerish. Rigidly defined battle flow! (A non-concept at best) Specifically partitioned zones! Listen, when people asked for bases to be defensible from tanks, it means that they wanted to DEFEND THEMSELVES from tanks. It didn't mean that they wanted tanks to be permanently on the other side of indestructible walls. A few of the bases have some individually good ideas (teleporter rooms, elevated spawn rooms), but they're turned into FFXIII corridors half the time. This is supposed to be fun? I even heard some of the usual zerglings complaining about how ridiculous Subterranean Nanite Facility was, which reminds me of a Quake 1 base designed for 6-player deathmatch. Cripes, when THESE people tell you that something's gone wrong...

    And now we have the "this is all the exp you made before you died" thing, which only promotes the kind of play that is the fundamental problem with this game- people not willing to get into actual fights, because they might die and their stats might suffer. Nobody ever thought "Wait! What are we really telling the players with this screen?"

    All of these things suggest not only a lack of vision but the denial of vision itself. Love it or hate it, PS2 as it was released had a concept, an idea, that was poisoned by things that someone in marketing thought would be necessary to keep people playing and paying (base capture exp for zerging, pay-to-win). Instead of enforcing the vision, they've doubled down on the poison. And then they wonder why people are leaving, even in the face of very real technical improvements.

    So, what can be done? Normally I say "sell the IP to Blizzard and let a better company make Planetside 3" but since Blizz became ActiBlizz I don't trust them with it either. Maybe sell it to Valve?
    • Up x 11
  4. Sledgecrushr

    I think eventually we will get more of a planetside experience out of this second game. It is just that its frustrating the way soe put itslf into a bind initially when the game came out. If the game had been optimised to begin with, then bases could have been designed to help negate the vehicle spawn camping that they instead deliberatley added to the game to try and control the population. If the game had been optimised to begin with then we could have started with the lattice instead of a hex system that spreads the populations out. If the game had been optimised in the beginning then soe wouldnt have had to keep buffed high explosives in the game to try and keep the populations low in any one area.

    If this game had been optimised before release then we would be a year ahead of where we are at now.
  5. Kaktwox

    There are even more problems then what you mention in your post. One of the other major contributing factors to veteran players giving up on this game is the endless balance cycles where it is SOE who is deciding the fate of the giant deathmatch and not the players. What's the point of trying to progress in the game or cert or unlock certain weapons when next week the development team can change the weapons around freely to the point that they drastically effect the outcome of battles. Another example of this is the WDS (the first "pre-season" being the best example) where SOE just makes up formulas for scoring which decide who the winner is.

    On Waterson we are starting to see the effects these types of things are having on the game and it is causing even further problems. Major TR outfits like NUC have abandoned this game due to poor balance and game development leaving the TR a shell of it's former self causing even further attrition with no end in sight.
    • Up x 3
  6. Cinnamon

    I'm not exactly sure about the central thrust of your post. I think you are saying that the community is too involved in "identity politics" ******** of trying to get their favoured things to be constantly improved with every patch. And not involved enough in making the game better in terms of improving how the game plays for everyone in terms of higher goals.

    I would agree with this.

    The spawn system in this game is poor and nothing has been done and people don't care. Smaller fights being unbalanced with certain things forcing good infantry fights out of the picture is poor and people don't care. Locking continents are now meaningless when that at least gave people a common goal to work to while WDS is a shambles and feels like some crazy free stuff for everyone party.

    And they rush new sniper rifles and lib weapons while resource system revamps and continent locking is nowhere.
  7. IamDH

    Although i agree there are multiple topics where forumside didnt really know what they want but you must admit there are so many topics we all want.

    TR Refurbishment by EliteEskimo as well as multiple other threads which received immense support
    Beta nights
    Resource Revamp
    Cont locking
    We can also agree that they should stop dumbing down the game


    No one ever wanted no ADS midair, no one wanted bras on their infils.
    • Up x 8
  8. Konfuzfanten


    I have lead large and small guild/clan/outfit groups in various games and in the end of day, its not the outfit leaders, but the outfit members that makes for great and long lasting outfits. If you outfit is dying, make a recruit drive or merge with another outfit.

    Let me ask you a question, UberBonisseur:
    What have YOU done to help your outfit thrive?

    If you dont think that PS2 has taken massive steps forward since launch, then PS2 is simply not your kind of game, and im inclined to believe that its not PS2 thats the problem, but your lack of entusiasme for FPS in general.
    • Up x 2
  9. Dalek

    ...Forumside within Forumside criticising Forumside who criticise forumside...

    Ladies and gentleman, we have finally hit it... Forumsideception. (forum si deception was not intentional)

    :eek: :eek: :eek:
    • Up x 2
  10. Kaktwox

    Saying it is the players' fault for outfits leaving the game is ridiculous. We are seeing a constant cycle of players leaving this game for various reasons. As an example, 3 major TR outfits on Waterson (NUC, QPRO and IR) have all given up on this game. All these outfits had great leadership and skilled players who just got tired of putting up with what goes on in PS2.
    • Up x 1
  11. UberBonisseur

    Leading a squad every single evening to avoid the outfit getting lost in random public platoons, why ?
    • Up x 4
  12. Devrailis


    Clearly, your players leaving due to game performance issues making the game unplayable is your fault and your fault alone. :rolleyes:
    • Up x 1
  13. Phyr

    That happens in every game. PS2 isn't a special snowflake in this regard.
    • Up x 3
  14. Zorro

    I agree, Planetside 2 is in a state of stagnation. SOE made their mistake in rushing the release. The developers may have decided it, or they may have been compelled by superiors. Whoever made the decision, they can blame themselves. There is nothing inherently differentiating a release from a beta, except that the latter makes players more receptive towards changes and tolerant of bugs. However, it altered the mindset of the developers themselves, who were satisfied to provide new weapons and accessories rather than revamp the basic underlying systems. Long betas should not be eschewed, as Minecraft has been incredibly successful with a long beta, and PS2 is intended to last until 2025.

    When one constructs a machine, he establishes the basic shape and then fine-tunes it to exact specifications. What SOE has done is install seatbelts and the radio while neglecting to put in the engine and transmission. New weapons and accessories can be delayed, immersion can be delayed, and even infantry and vehicle improvements can be delayed. However, the underlying mechanics need to be there from release. Even if it was impossible to complete resource, territory, and command revamps before launch, they should have been SOE's primary priorities immediately afterwards.

    SOE also has been too cautious and not ambitious enough. As has been stated already, they attempted to copy Battlefield, itself a middle ground between casual and hardcore games. The relentless spawn-camping in PS2 drove away the casual playerbase, and the hardcore players were frustrated by the lack of complexity inherent in the original Planetside. What they should have done was copy all the good things from Planetside and later implement the good shooting mechanics from other games. Currently the majority of the playerbase consists of loyalists who stay through thick and thin and disgruntled former players of Battlefield 4, which fortunately for us is a flop.

    I agree that many outfits have died. In most MMOs, when the leader of a group quits, the organization falls apart. It is to the credit of such outfits as Azure Twilight and Black Widow Company that they have survived so long. It can be frustrating to leaders that the only thing they can do is tell their units what to do over third-party comms.

    I would not say that Forumside is in a civil war. It used to be much worse, with constant accusations and mayhem, whereas it has mostly calmed down by now. There is conflict as to whether Planetside 2 should be realistic or arcade, fast-paced or slow-paced, complicated or simple, low-ttk versus high-ttk. However, there are some things we all agree on, and brilliant threads like making nights darker and refurbishing factions have been incredibly popular. Nevertheless, SOE is worried about implementing these ideas, and when suggested on the roadmap there is often a backlash from some players.

    [puts on elitist monocle] It is of my opinion that SOE should listen mostly to the several dozen players who are most knowledgeable about Planetside 2 and who have the clearest plan of improving on it.
    • Up x 9
  15. dstock

    Good read, the only thing I'd disagree with is that this is the only large-scale FPS game. WWII:Online, anyone? 6x6km is nothing compared to several hundred square kilometers in NW Europe, with no real fast travel. They even have an active, open dev group that reads and responds on the forums, and takes player feedback for improvements. The only drawback is the graphics suck by today's standards, and the realistic combat model (1-shot kills, leg hits bleed out after several minutes, etc) is certainly not for everyone. I'm not here to preach or convert anyone, I'm playing PS2 and not that. If anything, I wish SOE would take a gander and learn a thing or two.
    • Up x 2
  16. GustavoM

    How does SOE expects to sell their product if they don't give a damn to their customers?
    That's all I have to say about this.
    • Up x 1
  17. Hoki

    Anyone here ever played DAoC?

    Think relic football would help with giving large outfits something to shoot for?

    As in, capture all of the enemy relics on every continent, but to do so requires multiple things to happen instead of just steamrolling along a lattice line.

    Not necessarily capture the entire continent, but maybe relic football and continent locking could be different things.

    I also think outfit representation and outfit pride content could help. In DAoC your guild could claim keeps, and there was pride associated in owning and defending that keep.

    Guilds in the same alliance would light the proverbial beacons of minas tirith by hitting up alliance chat for help in defending their holdings.

    And I think thats what buzzcut needs in a game if hes going to lead an entire outfit in a game, is have a goal that his outfit can be proud in accomplishing, and have a way to feel invested.

    And the game certainly lacks that.

    Well at one point holding skydock mesa after continent capping was sort of a relic-keep/alamo.

    Skydock, Crown, these were actual goals that large corps had to capture and defend. And higsderp, forever missing the point, well we know what happened there.
    • Up x 2
  18. WTSherman

    You know, one thing I think might make an interesting twist to the lattice is something that would occasionally turn up in Project Reality's Advance And Secure (AAS) maps: closed branches.

    The way a closed branch worked was you were going down an AAS (ie lattice) line, and the path split out to two bases, then merged back in. When this happened, you had to control both of the split bases simultaneously before you could take the base at the intersection. What this effectively meant was that attackers needed to seize both bases, but the defenders only had to hold one.

    These splits were rarely used of course, because a situation like that easily grinds into a stalemate or a game of whack-a-mole where attackers are trying to take and hold both bases, while the defenders keep hitting whichever one the attackers are weakest at to halt their progress. Generally there was only one, and it was near the middle of the map where the designer wanted most of the fight to take place. Because, like I said, generally the fight *would* stall at that branch and one side would have to seriously outplay the other to push past it.

    This would be a problem for people with short attention spans though, fights in PR often dragged out for three hours or more. :D
    • Up x 4
  19. GoyoElGringo

    The problem with forumside, and this is true with all video game forums I've been to, is that much of the community doesn't understand the importance of philosophy and ideas. You have these people arguing against something based on emotion or anecdotal evidence. And of course, those things are important in their own rites, but we should be discussing game development philosophy and how the game should play. Instead we see people using ad hominem attacks and genetic fallacies to discredit valid ideas and the opinions of people who don't have a stellar KDR or enough time in the game( KDR isn't a huge deal here though, which is great, but I bring it up because it does happen and is common in other forums).

    As for all the whiners that want to quit the game because they got insert bug here after a patch, or they don't like some minor change to the gui, they can either go and play one of the many amazing MMOFPS out there(that's sarcasm) or they can get a handle on their emotiona and discuss the pros and cons of the situation from an objective position.

    I understand that philosophy might not be everyone's strong suit, but things are rarely as simple as they seem.
    • Up x 8
  20. z1967

    After the resource revamp and Continent locking, I think that they should next focus on squad, platoon, outfit, and command tools and structure. If they want an FPSMMO with RTS themes here and there, they need to do a few things.
    -Improve VOIP (already doing that so good job in that!)
    -Improve waypoint systems so that we can had out more precise/concise orders (and draw lines)
    -Add in ways to specify what you want certain units to do (Mines here, LAs attack from here, tanks move this way etc.)
    -RTS style UI for the map screen for commanders and outfit leaders.
    -More scouting units like drones or command vehicles (Vindicore has some pretty cool concepts that he/she has drawn up)

    Just some random ideas off the top of my head.
    • Up x 4