Discussion in 'Test Server: Announcements' started by Nak, Apr 23, 2014.
You are 100% correct and I absolutely agree
So I have spent some time on the test server and this is my feedback so far; I haven't really reviewed the Implant HUD at all yet.
**Implant Balance tweaks**
The three big ones are Awareness, EOD Hud, and sensor shield.
*Awareness:* Work using the same logic as proximity radar, they are only spotted for people using the implant. This means the need for communication is not removed to take advantage of this powerful effect in a group.
*Battle Hardened:* Honestly this is pretty innocuous. Just make sure TR gets a balance pass afterwards because they are hurt the most by this change, especially if this is the default.
*Clear Vision* You are still subjected to reduced duration stun penalties, vision is not obscured. Tactical grenades still work, just a much smaller window to exploit. Just as a note, I'd take the opportunity to add a secondary effect to the flash grenade - as a suggestion, gunfire does not show up on minimap for 10s after flashed.
*EMP Shielding* Shields drop but immediately start recharging. Cloaks drop but can immediately be reactivated. EMPs still work, the implant just shields the user from the effects sticking.
*Enhanced Targeting:* Don't reveal shield health so there is still some ambiguity that situational awareness can resolve. Does not reveal vehicle occupancy either.
*EOD HUD:* Explosives glow their faction colors, but are not auto-spotted. It increases your tools for situational awareness while still demanding you do something to pass that information on to people without the implant.
*Hold Breath:* Breath recovery is significantly slower (increases time held and to recover with tier). It let's snipers burst their damage without becoming a pure power upgrade. Semi-autos might even be the winner of such a change instead of making BA even more betterer.
*Marker:* Useless right now. Instead, make spots remain manual, but they no longer are yelled out. The current effect is literally just saving you a button press that you should have been doing anyway.
*Regeneration:* Maximum health is reduced. Higher tiers regen faster but give up more health. The biggest thing this does is put a check on the resist shield heavy completely overshadowing other options like it did in the nanoweave days.
*Safe Landing:* Weird ability. Just make sure you still die from aircraft ejection or you just gave ESFs free ejection seats. If you want to sell KDR preservation then just sell a stat wipe directly. 0 people have a problem with that.
*Sensor Shield:* REDUCES detection range, not eliminates. I cannot state how important that is when you have so many things it counters. Proximity radar is already very weak and buggy. Making it useless should accompany a cert refund. Also don't make stalker infils literally impossible to find. Harder ---line--- Impossible, don't cross it please.
*Thermal Reduction* Would be better if it was just a range reduction as well, but not nearly as important to change.
I believe these changes would fix every issue I have with the implants abilities currently on Test.
We need some sort of persistent toggle so we spawn with/without implants until switched, without having to make duplicate fits. A checkbox within the deploy button is my personal suggestion. On/Off while running around would be unbalanced and defeats the design, but less hassle while picking fits is a huge deal. Implants will leave a sour taste if it is hard to manage energy.
Waaaaaaaay less clicks to buy implants. Right now you have to switch to the marketplace, select a bundle, confirm, accept it from notifications, and click back to the constructor page. Simplify to a button for the 3 pack and 5 pack on the constructor page and then a pop-up confirmation.
Combining implants is tedious and visually confusing. The tier symbols especially are weak. I would add different color text for different tier implants. I furthermore suggest to just remove the ability to craft with your prime copy of a given implant altogether. People are not going to want to consume their last copy of an implant and risk of angry accidents, especially when loot boxes are random, is way too high. A quick-combine for stacks would also be appreciated.
*Add a new tab, removing the certification tab is very aggravating, forcing people to go to the wikis for basic information.*
The method for recharging energy by clicking on it is completely unintuitive. Add a plus symbol after the number like the equipment stacks so it is more obvious that you must click there to open the inventory.
That's a fair compromise. Its not ideal because it pushes XP boosts farther into the power side of the power<--->convieniance gradient, but I can't think of a better cert sink.
Uh, can we get stealth armor & silencers to counter / reduce the effects of awareness?
Radars/motion trackers is now RNG because 3/10 people are using Sensor Shield. Another example is I flank a squad of people and come in from behind and throw a concussion grenade, but my grenade only concussed 4 of the 12 people in the building. Its a worse problem for explosives because one person with EOD HUB alerts the others through team speak.
What are your thoughts about players saying that this will add RNG into the game?
(I may be behind on updates my internet download speed is at 5Mbps, think I need a new modem )
The charging mechanic doesn't bring anything beneficial to the game. None of us want to have to worry about keeping a drain mechanic from running out. Remove the charging mechanic and most of our hate for implants will go away.
None of the implants should completely counter any other tactic. Nor should they make you 100% immune to anything.
For instance, the implant that makes you invisible to RADAR is too OP. If it made you 30% less likely to be detected (low-end version might be 20%, high end might be 35%), or reduced the range at which you are detected by 30% it would be far more balanced.
The anti-concussion grenade implant should just shorten the time that you are conc'd by no more then 33%.
Alright, thanks for the posts Nak, you show people that SOE is monitoring this thread. Although, that being said I think there are a few implants that need changed. A few of these could use just removed(*cough* Awareness/regen/safefall *cough*)
Regen: This will make the need of medics less. Granted they will still be needed for reviving but I feel this is the implant a lot of people will go for. Med/res kits will be used a TON less frequently. After all, if I'm a light assault why would I equip res/med kits over C4 if I have a nice implant that gets me to full health in no time at all. My suggestion, nerf it so it only regens around 2-3% every second, something like that.
Safe Fall: There's a sundy way down there! Why pull my light assault when I can just jump off this cliff with my heavy? Yeah, this is going to negate the need fore Light Assaults. A lot of people use light assaults for jump off/out of things so this is going to negate a class that isn't very useful in squad play to begin with. Not entirely sure what can be done about this one. I know it would take too much coding but I would love to see this one be used specifically for the LA. But since that's probably not possible just nerf it a or change it so that the safefall works like it currently does but your shield will be taken off, still might be OP but that's just my two certs worth.
EOD HUD: Don't make it work in vehicles. It's bad enough as infantry but think. Right before I pull a tank I'll just equip this, my tank mine problems are over.
And finally, saving the best 'til last...
Awareness: A lot of people disliked this idea while it was on the roadmap, and raised their voices, why this even made it to test server is beyond me but if SOE insists on keeping it in what needs to be done is pretty simple. Make it so only the person taking damage sees the spot, none of the other allies. Also(might already be in) make it so that the range has to be pretty close, so this won't bother snipers as much. Again, I haven't actually tested these implants, just read what they do. If awareness does the standard Q spot time reduce it so it only spots the enemy for a few seconds, so I only have to run for my life for a small amount of time . Honestly what I'd like to see is this just changed so it lets you know you've been spotted and amplifies footsteps instead of adding a new implant for those.
Anyways, those are my two certs. There are a few others that are slightly unbalanced but these are the ones I had the most trouble with.
You all act as if everyone is going to use the same implant, thus mines, infi etc is useless. Remember, each person will choose what they prefer to their playstyle and loadout. You may conc a room but only 3 guys have implants that resist it. You may lay down mines but not everyone will be able to see them in their hud. If you are smart, it will enhance YOUR personal gameplay. You may hate one implant and wish it was gone but it may be useful to another. Dont beg for one to be removed just because you personally dont like it. If you hate what implants are going to do then maybe you need to learn how to use them wisely and also realize that you will not be successful if you are set to one strict attack tactic.
I support this.
If you shoot your gun, you will be spotted
So, your idea of balance is having tools which do not have any counter? All i hear in these forums is that "OMG this is OP it has NO counter!!!111"
Having no or insufficient counter is basically the definition of OP
I would say the pay to win concern is entirely removed if you remove chargers for SC. I don't think anyone really has any reasonable issue with the random implant packs (apart from those people who think you shouldn't be able to buy anything), but the combining implants to create chargers thing would need to be looked at, as it could end up as a long way around to the same problem.
I have no objection to chargers for certs beyond personal preference. Personally I think removing chargers as a purchasable item completely opens up avenues for much more interesting mechanics.
Off the top of my head Amp stations could be given recharger terminals when you could charge your implants, your maximum capacity could be limited by how many facilities you have connected to the amp station. You could also add a defense slot item to Sunderers that would allow you to charge your implants when they were deployed. Give the Sunderer a maximum charge level so it can't recharge infinite people and allow it to be recharged at any ammo tower connected to an amp station. Possibly allow engineers to replace their turret with a portable generator. Make the maximum energy pool a player can have fairly limited and the power usage rate fairly high (say 5 minutes uptime per charge) so that having implant chargers set up gives your empire a noticeable advantage.
As I said, that's just off the top of my head, I'm sure someone could come up with a more compelling gameplay mechanic, but it's just an example of how implants could be used to flesh out the logistics element of the game and add some depth. Making certs the only thing you earn and making everything available for certs is a little boring and a kinda unimaginative, sorry if that sounds harsh.
This is a great example of the more Lateral thinking we need more of in here because it asks the larger question about Resources & Hexes in general which are due for a big Overhaul anyway. We need more feedback in general infact.... Servers are completely down, people got nothing better to do, but this thread only got another page and a half of posts and only what 33% of them are even about the LARGER "Resource Sink" purpose behind these?
Come to think of it, why don't you SOE guys just tell us why there needed to be another Resource Sink exactly?
That's what this guy .... and probably MOST of your players who aren't BR100's, don't understand yet:
You ask most of your players to sacrifice certs for these chargers, and of COURSE they're going to equate substituting SC for them instead as "PAY 2 WIN" because it's the same thing as literally buying Certs (it's just Doge-Coin certs that you can only use to buy chargers with but the Equating remains). Why not other resources instead? Why specifically only "Sink" Certs??
Regarding Concern #2, Countering Playstyles:
Damage can almost always scale well. Consider a perfectly reasonable ability: Flak Armor. If a player would take 500 splash damage, and Flak stops 10% of that, they take 450. A very clear compromise between the attack and the counter. And very possible to balance, since you can go to 9 or 11% based on data. Damage counters are fine, provided you never try to invent "complete immunity to bullets". Which of course you wouldn't.
But a lot of non-damage effects do not scale well. If detection is supposed to tell you when someone's running buy, either it does or it doesn't. You can't be half-aware that someone is about to enter the room. There's no clear compromise, and if you do come up with something you need to hope it works really well since there's not a lot of fine-tuning room.
You can also apply this to something like Concussion resistance. At first it might seem that concussion is scalable since you can give reduced effects. But the point of a concussion grenade is not to make your opponent's screen blurry; it's to stop them from turning and shooting at you. And either it works or it doesn't. If the implant gives too much protection, it's a binary shutdown of the concussion every bit as silly as "immunity to bullets". If not enough, it's worthless.
This is the problem you have to overcome for this type of implant. The "happy medium" of a counter to non-scalable effects is something that might be theoretically possible. But it will be very difficult to find and not well received.
What I don't like is the charging mechanic.
If implants only got used up like the other consumables I wouldn't have half the problem with the idea. Hell, if you absolutely have to have it wear out, then just make it drain very slowly passively until it gets "used", triggered by the right conditions, where it takes a chunk of battery.
It's the micromanaging of one more thing that, even if everyone loved the implants, creates a much more annoying experience of one more thing to remember to manage that takes away from just playing the game. I don't have to micromanage mines and grenades too badly, but if I had to remember to buy more EVERY time I respawned? How tedious!
its great to have more customization, and ways to make your character feel like its really yours but a few things im not 100% fond of.
- energy. If it is going to be easy to aquire and power then its a uneeded layer of complexity, and keeping things simple and efficent is key! if its going to be expensive to power (T3 especially) then you will get a lot of complaints, and people will feel like they are wasting certs!
- variety. a lot of spotting implants and hard counter ones, i feel that you shouldnt be using implants as a counter, but as a better character customization: either like swapping weapons faster, but slower reload: (or the inverse), faster sprint speed, but slower ADS, to almost warframe-esq (which could only be a good thing IMO, warframes mods system is awsome, and a PS2 with that sort of system would be really nice)
All in all id cut energy out, and instead focus more on player and weapon customization (heck even if my gun has a 0.001% stat diffrence from everyone elses itll make the player feel unique, and offer a lot of intresting new weapon varieties) and sell chargers as a way to increase the upgrades (or make them expensive 1 time cert purchases)
For me (apart from those mentioned here by many) one of the biggest problems is that after inserting implant into your loadout, the energy is consumed without a break, no matter what I do - in this way the default energy pool for T3 implant is consumed within 10 minutes (600 energy pool drained 1/1sec)
In my opinion it should be implemented on and off button, so that player can use it when he/she decides to, and not that it was turned on permanently.
hey there, fellow Red Mist Comrade! :>
I think this mechanic is intentional - if you don´t want your energy to be drained, unequip the implant..but managing this for all your loadouts and specific implants can be very time-consuming so I get back to your idea of a toggle button or a checkbox: add it to the loadout screen!
- if you want your implant to be powered before entering a galaxy and dropping on a techplant, walk up to the terminal and check the box / click the button
- if you are just casually farming some certs and dont feel like using up all your energy, hit the infantry terminal and disable the implant
no need to manage all eventually needed loadouts one after another
The issue is not that every implant could be used at one time, but that any implant could be used by any opponent.
This makes it impossible to be certain any plan would work.
If the concussion grenade is OP then surely the correct remedy is to adjust it so that it's nerfed. Making it so players will randomly unpredictably have gameplay worthy resistance just ruins the determinism. This is a random way to achieve balance.
I win mechanics
To play games you need rules, and to be depend on those rules. Of course, when a player is relying on a rule to gain a kill then they should be able to depend on it.
It's another thing to say a mechanic has massive reward (in terms of both certs as well as effectiveness) once a very small amount of skill has been applied. The heavy shield, maxes, vehicle use against defenseless infantry and other susceptible vehicles are an example. I assume this is what was meant by being 'I win'.
The problem here, of course, being that PS2 is a competitive game and cert gain forces specialization.This makes some cert paths incredibly lucrative given distorted skill/reward relationships.
Making an effect be randomly countered doesn't seem to address the fundamental concerns outlined above?.
To be precise it will make relying on an 'ability' affecting everyone impossible. At the same time it will make it impossible to predict which enemy an ability will not affect. Outcomes will always have a random variance, with area effects being able to be ruined by a single counter in the right place. The solution then is to rely only on tactics that are more deterministic.
As you said, it is strong enough to sufficiently to act as a balance against I-win mechanics. Countering every single use is not required to ruin things.
The impact of implants when farming is different to the impact during squad operations. A farmer will be happy to get a few extra kills when using smoke and thermal scopes, not caring about 5 players who were unaffected. Unfortunately farming is mostly what happens now as players wait for metagame to be implemented, but eventually it has to be believed that will pass.
Some other points:
The perspective of good outfits and good players will be different as they'll always go up against implant using opponents, if the outfits/players are known to be in the area. This stops receiving just reward for their skill compared to others, purely because opponents constantly choose to spend limited certs/SC against them.
Similarly outfits/players with a rivalry will have their skilled tactics unnecessarily countered without any skill involved.
Because Implants mostly target the big systems, different classes are impacted differently with classes that assist teamplay being hit hardest, while classes and vehicles that mostly focus on gaining xp by killing are not targeted as much. I don't see equal coverage being implemented, to achieve balance for players who spent certs specializing in things mostly unaffected by implants.
The fact that self-immunity/self-resistance provided by implants allows players to depend 100% on something just shows how essential being able to depend on something is for planning/coordination.
I've largely stayed away from the monetisation fuss as it misses the point - but there are other viable means as I suggested here.
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