Ravens are Balanced.

Discussion in 'MAX' started by LilianaMonteclaire, Apr 3, 2015.

  1. LilianaMonteclaire

    Are Ravens the best AV max weapon in the game? Yep.
    Are Ravens better than the their alternatives in other factions? Yep.
    Are Ravens basically the defacto kings of AV on indar? Yep.

    Do NC maxes suck at AV past 5 meters with everything but mattocks? Yep.
    Does the NC Max lose 1v1 to any other max when it comes to anti-infantry weapons? Yep.
    Does the NC Max's kill range happen to end at about the point where a light assault can just icarus up and C4 fairy them? Yep.
    Does the NC max's Anti-infantry weapons suffer from reloads long enough to throw and detonate C4? Yep.

    Ravens are, competing with other AV weapons, very overpowered.
    NC maxes, ravens included, are balanced when competing with other maxes. Much like the vanguard, we have best in class anti-armor, in exchange for worst in class anti-infantry. Sure, it sucks to lose your tank to ravens. It also sucks to be reloading for so long that a lone light assault runs out of cover and blows you up or you get melee'd by a decimator rocket.

    Ravens are balanced by being an overpowered weapon vs one target on a loadout that is underpowered vs another, so next time you complain about wanting our overpowered rocket launcher, keep in mind that we'd kill to have working HE tank rounds and max guns with clips that naturally have double digit values and reload faster than a rocket launcher.
  2. qiray12

    Having OP AV and UP AI doenst make the nc max balanced LOL. If you claim the ravens are OP (wich is true) then compare it to fractures and vortexes not with mattocks or something. And say why its OP or not and why you think it should be tweaked or not.

    Just whining bout something that kills you with no real facts is just lame.
    • Up x 1
  3. LilianaMonteclaire

    I'm not whining for one. That would involve me complaining about the NC MAX or its armaments. Also, comparing weapons on their own is largely futile for MAXes and vehicles, which have defined AV and AI weapons as opposed to infantry, who have, for the most part, entirely AI weapons (heavy assault rockets being both the lone exception, and almost totally devoid of faction traits save for one launcher/faction). NC maxes have worse AI (better point blank TTK, worse every other stat by quite the margin), in exchange for better AV (Falcons hurt like hell. Ravens can snipe from extreme ranges and kill moving targets).

    Being better at one thing, and worse at another thing is a method of balance. A high fire rate, low damage weapon vs a high damage, low fire rate weapon fills a different role, but is not objectively better or worse. NC vanguards are better at tank dueling, but worse at infantry farming. TR's Lynx is an absolute nightmare in CQC, but pretty much throws spitballs at long ranges. Asymmetrical balance is literally built on different groups being able to do different things to different degrees of effectiveness. Losing your tank to Ravens can be annoying, so can losing your max during that agonizing reload after failing to one clip an enemy max with your hacksaws due to it being at full HP. Trading off power in one area for power in another is fine, and leads to an asymmetrical, balanced experience.
  4. patoman

    So... to address problems wouldn't it make sense to not have ravens such a op choice compared with other NC weapons I deviced to test them out, and boy they work wonders at infantry even better than the long range shotgun with sugs (one hit kills with direct hits).

    I tried out shotguns and yes they do suck compared with other AI guns, not olny limited range but the greatest asset of max firepower is huge clips and they got a clip that is short in just a few shots. In a TR max I could gun down a small squad of people or laydown fire for long time before reloading, vs NC after about 4 seconds need to reload again, so half the time reloading and shooting. And also in addition to the maganzes being small the total ammo reserve is low.



    Your argument, is that NC maxes with ravens are balanced compared with other maxes because the lack of other viable options. So the ravens need to be very good to compensate for deficiency's in other guns.

    In that regard by that logic fractures are medicure they should stay medicure because of the too viable options tr maxes have for chainguns and grenade launchers.
  5. LilianaMonteclaire

    That is my argument, yes. Ravens are balanced because they give the NC max a defined role. We could just as easily say the same of the TR max and its status as the bane of infantry (God I hate pounders), and the VS max sits somewhere between the two where it's pretty good at both, but lacks pounders/chainguns for extremely efficient infantry slaughter, and Ravens/Falcons for armor destruction.

    If they're to nerf ravens, they need to give NC maxes better anti-infantry to compensate. If they buff Fractures, they'll need to cut down on the ability of TR maxes to utterly sweep zergs with pounderspam.

    Personally, I think all the "OP, nerf now" people need to try using an NC max for anti-infantry work outside of maxcrashing a point and realize exactly why every NC max happens to have a set of Ravens glued to it all the time. Personally, I use falcons because I'm both poor, and one of those suicidal people who likes bullfighting lightnings, but it's hard to really say that Ravens are overpowered when NC maxes are otherwise underpowered outside of massing, which pounders do better anyway.
  6. Metalsheep

  7. LilianaMonteclaire

    Metalsheep, that was an impressive argument. Truly mindblowing. It would, however, be better if you actually used words. Futurama is awesome, and it's a shame that it's so often used in place of actual debate.
  8. Corezer

    Dude, I play NC, since jager, and I will say:
    raven OP.

    AI is fine, TR and VS maxes hold points, NC maxes break holds, and they are all good at what they do, asymmetrical.

    I think the AI of the ravens is fine too, it can snipe unaware players standing around well enough, but it's no pounder in a real fight, but the AV DPS combined with the accuracy, and even the ability to hit around corners when you understand them a little...

    ravens were OP because of how well they could function at range due to the accuracy, the range nerf didn't solve the problem, just masked it, it still has pinpoint accuracy and incredible DPS relative to that.

    it needed a nerf to AV damage (slight) and steering speed (a lot) so you could guide the rocket to it's intended target, not turn around and hit enemies behind you...

    the phoenix is a good example, but wire guided not camera ofc, so a little easier to use but still the point is it can be out maneuvered by someone trying to do that, as opposed to being auto damage as it is now.
    • Up x 1
  9. LilianaMonteclaire

    NC maxes can't really break into held rooms all that well though. compared to other maxes, we have the least kills/clip, and the longest reload, meaning while we do more upfront damage, we can't get as many kills. This ignoring that we have to reach the range at which we can do lethal damage, and the threat of C4. Our max AI is notably worse across the board. In addition, most infantry methods of killing maxes boil down to AV grenades and C4, which seem to be far more common than pocket decimators, especially C4. Aegis shield only blocks Deci's and direct hit AV grenades. In other words, while it works vs infantry, that's not where it shines. Aegis is amazing in anti-tank fights however, and of course, charge is good, but all factions get charge, and you're still a C4 magnet and can't fight back during charge.

    I'm not going to argue that raven's aren't overpowered. They are if taken in a vacumn. They're balanced by the fact that what they give to AV work, they're effectively taking from the AI weapons effectiveness across the board. If they buff the shotguns, they should nerf the ravens. If they don't buff the shotguns, NC max is balanced around basically being a dedicated anti-tank weapon.
  10. ZZYZX

    The Ravens are not OP anymore. At all. I think people are just so accustomed to crying about them, that they won't admit they've changed until they fire foam Nerf missiles.

    I have more than 50% of my play time on a double Raven MAX. It really was the only NC MAX that was any good. The Scatter is mediocre at AI. Sure, it hits hard up close. But the trade-offs are steep (very small clip, very slow reload, very short range). Any skilled HA will pop around a corner with a Decimator (or a C4 fairy will float in on a cloud of glitter) and the Scatter MAX is done for. It doesn't have the luxury of being able to fight at medium or long range.

    The Burster is...so/so. Not nearly as fun as the old Sparrow MAX was, and IMHO, not as effective. But, it's not the worst thing I've seen.

    The only MAX the NC has that can CLEARLY be called "VERY GOOD" at it's role is the Raven MAX. But in this world of crybabies, good apparently equals "OP." Heaven forbid you might have to adapt your gameplay or use teamwork. That's ridiculous! Better cry about it and get the game code changed to suit your play style instead. And the Devs will do it, too, because catering to the lowest common denominator is the way PS2 is run these days. Probably no coincidence that it's basically a dead game now, and we won't see any significant development as it dies out.

    I was recently up on some cliffs with a squad, firing down at some Prowlers and Lightnings. Interestingly enough, the tanks were able to hit our location - but my Ravens were out of range, and I was not able to get hit markers on the tanks unless they moved in a little closer. I'm tired of this "Ravens can hit me out of render range" crap. It's simply no longer true, unless you have your render settings dialed way down to increase your FPS.

    They were effectively nerfed, and the nerf worked. They are NOT NEARLY as effective as they used to be. Take it from me, it's my primary weapon and they're both Auraxed. Fortunately, there are still a lot of really dumb players to prey on, so while I can't get kills like I used to, I can still be effective. I just have to work a little harder.

    Maybe you crybabies should work a little harder, too.
  11. Runegrace

    Surely what follows after this must be a fair, unbiased appraisal of the Raven MAX's balance.

    This is like the opposite, but equally bad equivalent, of starting your post with "I've never used Ravens, but..."
    • Up x 1
  12. 0fly0

    Lol good one! :rolleyes: I see NC still can't use two button at the same time.
    • Up x 1
  13. LilianaMonteclaire


    Would you care to make a counter argument or explain your logic...

    ...Oh, I see, just insulting a third of the playerbase. Classy.
  14. RegiusTR

    TLDR. Troll post... NC are OP, but that won't change so long as the Dev team is the same.
  15. ZZYZX

    I was also a philosophy undergrad, so...if you want to make loose associations, you should use that factoid instead, since the whole aim of that study is to find the truth of things. Therefore, it stands to reason that I am giving a fair, unbiased appraisal.

    I still use the Ravens. A lot. But as I said, they are nowhere near as useful as they used to be. And that's OK. I'm a fair person. I can see where beforehand, in the hands of the right players, Ravens were very good at their role, and I can also see how that would incite people to whine and get them nerfed.

    But now that they HAVE been nerfed, and quite significantly, there is no justification for further whining. If you are still suffering at the hands of Ravens to the same degree as you were before, it's your gameplay causing you to suffer. Not the power of the Ravens.

    There are now OTHER weapons that stand out as being "more OP" than the Ravens. These other weapons should be your point of contention now.
  16. Runegrace

    We can do this.

    I was a philosophy undergrad
    Philosophy studies the truth of things

    Therefore, I am incapable of bias

    Do I have to explain how this is a non sequitur? If this were true, you could extend it to every one of your peers and say that any philosophy undergrad cannot hold a biased opinion.

    I can tell you that Libs are UP. If anything, Skyguards and other AA is waaaay OP. I should know, I spend 90% of my time in a Lib.

    How does that read? Do you trust the author's assessment on game balance?

    I didn't actually say anything about Raven balance, I just saw the premise of your post and had a 'oh wow' moment. Not trying to rip your opinion apart, simply trying to explain how leading with the statement on 50% playtime undermines the validity of your post.
  17. Corvus Corax

    I don't understand why everyone fears pounders. Do you, like, not run side to side? It will take a TR max two full clips to kill you from splash alone, and 4 shots as direct hits.
    Without lockdown pounders are generally **** and you might as well just use chainguns.
    Which brings us to that as well! Chainguns! Yes, let's just be afraid of a weapon that practically allows you to run up to a max and c-4 him while he's shooting at you.
    Yes, very scary.
  18. LilianaMonteclaire

    Corvus, Pounders are feared because they come off as second best at everything. Want to kill infantry? They're no chaingun for singles or lasher for groups, but they do it well enough to approximate either. Want to kill tanks? They're not Falcons, but they certainly do threaten tanks at the same ranges as Falcons, if not as well. Want to kill Maxes? They're not a decimator rocket or C4, but they get the job done.

    generally speaking, getting a B+ in every grade means you are an above average student. Pounders are much the same, planetside 2 just happens to use alot more A's and D's than your average grading system. Guns can't hurt tanks. Lockon rockets don't work on infantry and decimators are super slow. Pounders work on everything well enough to be a credible threat, but not well enough to outshine dedicated roles, and this makes them terrifying to experienced players, who know that unless they're packing something to expressly deal with the poundermax, they have a disadvantage no matter what they are.

    They're not strong enough to really need a nerf, but they're definately in a position where their only true weakness is difficulty of use.

    Comparing this to Ravens, which definately have an A+ 100/100 for Anti-tank work, and pre range nerf, literally only had to compete with dedicated lancer squads, but now are simply best in class for anti vehicle, but have to land multiple hits to bring down infantry that can still dodge around the rockets due to turning them quickly demanding the max basically spins in place. Fine at a distance, but easy to dance around up close, while at the same time lacking the raw power of Falcons OHK potential. Servicable, but I can tell you right now, I'll take Falcons over Ravens for any situation where I legitimately expect to be facing both. Ravens certainly are notably better than the other two second gen AV max weapons at infantry killing by a hilariously large margin though, and I think that could stand to be upscaled on the other two, since they don't really do better vs armor, and don't do better vs infantry either.

    Also, to the person calling this a troll post. Trolls don't tend to legitimately explain their logic and reasoning and attempt to use said reasoning to argue their point, while considering the statements of others. Keep thinking it if you want, but you are objectively wrong.
    • Up x 1
  19. ZZYZX

    No, it doesn't, but that's OK. You live in your world, I'll live with the rest of us in reality.

    Anyhow...Liliana...agreed. Pounders are not at all OP. Ravens are also not at all OP. What BOTH of these are, are EFFECTIVE AT THEIR ROLES. These days, however, being "effective" is apparently the same as being "over-powered." The only thing that needs a nerf is the whining.

    There are plenty of ways to counter a Raven MAX, a Pounder MAX, or any other MAX. Simply ADAPT and OVERCOME. You might actually have to play more than 1 class, or pilot more than 1 vehicle, in order to gain a situational advantage. Stop being so lazy, and enjoy some of the other elements of the game you don't normally play. You might actually realize that your whining was really all for nothing.
  20. RainbowDash9

    all i want to be nerfed is the ravens sound effect....god hearing that whistling ALL the time gets really annoying :(

    My thoughts as a TR player:
    i dont get killed enough by them to want them to get nerfed. sure on indar theyre annoying as hell, but then i just go around where theyre aiming and/or run them over. magical thing called tactics. ikr? who uses tactics, its not like its a team based game with factions that are supposed to work together to whoop the other factions *****........wait.......OH ****!

    seriously though i die more by teammates than by ravens.