[Radical Suggestion] Nerf Skyknightside

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by UberNoob1337101, May 7, 2016.

  1. WeRelic

    So you're that annoying little so-and-so in the harasser D:<

    Seriously though, I love you for this post. It's nice to hear a ground perspective that isn't whining about how powerful aircraft are when they refuse to even shoot at them.
  2. ColonelChingles

    Then nerf A2G so that you also need 4 ESFs to take down one MBT before that MBT "escapes". PS2 is about TEAM WORK, right? So pilots should have to engage in TEAM WORK as well in order to net any kills at all.
    • Up x 2
  3. Moz


    You need a single MBT shot to take down an ESF...... your argument is mute!
  4. Pelojian

    nope, prowler can't one shot ESFs they also can't aim up like true AA weapons.
  5. LaughingDead

    A single ranger or walker can clip an ESF, ranger is more likely to clip an ESF than a walker.
    Any MBT can equip a ranger or walker, a single skyguard can clip an ESF, a walker/ranger bus can prevent ESFs from entering the area.

    I mean if you want teamwork, how bout nerfing the singleton sources of flak that can clip ESFs? That way more people have to pull several skyguards to kill an ESF :3
  6. Sh4n4yn4y



    I swear it is like hitting my head against a brick wall... just worse.

    I will admit that the A2G game is... not great.

    But the reason it takes only a single ESF to destroy a tank is because of intended population differences, and vulnerability. The idea is that there is 1 ESF to every say, 10 people on the ground. It is wide open in the sky. No trees to hide behind, it's only cover is that mountain three hundred meters away.

    So, it needs to be able to do enough damage to hold it's own against these greater numbers, and yet still have the ability to make it to cover and try and survive the returning onslaught of lockons, bursters, skyguards, walkers, assault rifles, sniper rifles, lmgs, pistols, ARs, BRs, SMGs, etc...

    This has hte unfortunate side effect of making people on the ground feel that they are inferior. Which is quite accurate, because e gods of the sky are simply so much better than you all.

    Bow down before us.
  7. UberNoob1337101

    Yeah, and not kill any of them or damage them significantly, which results them doing the same thing but reposition differently so the skyguard can't hit them? And if they happen to have hornets, you'll be the one running?

    Yeah, deterrence! So useful!
    They have afterburners no matter what secondary they pick, so this argument is completely irrelevant and pointless.
    Just because someone doesn't like the system doesn't he's bad at it. Like seriously, I don't need over 9000 posts that say that I'm "bad" because I think that the current air game/balance is a bit skewed and something's wrong with it. But for some reason most of you behave like delusional children and insult/theorize pointless ******** for no reason instead of bringing an actual argument on why the air game doesn't need changing and why is it fine as-is.

    You also completely glossed over how hard it is for new pilots to get into the air game and that it should be improved. IDK why.

    Also, I like BF3 aerial combat more than PS2's aerial combat. It feels good, it's really fast and vastly unique when compared with other options in the game, also feels realistic and is much better than the gravity-defying, immersion breaking magic maneuver stuff like Reverse Maneuver which completely breaks immersion, is completely unrealistic and if you know to pull it off it eliminates the need to be aware of other air vehicles because you can magically fly backwards and put yourself in the position to engage.
    Great, more of that BS, over-used, ******, thoughtless and ignorant "git gud" argument that completely glosses over the topic and the discussion. Sorry to burst your bubbles, but I learned all those things months ago when I got gud.
    You have a point there. It does function like a food chain to be honest, and (besides the point. but whatevs) I personally disagree with nerfing AI noseguns because they already take aiming skill (Instead of lolpods) and remove your effective AA, and now they're getting nerfed for... what reason?

    And true, a ESF loadout focused on something is only going to be effective at one/two particular things, but my massive problem with lolpods is that you can have very good efficiency at almost everything while sacrificing little in comparison for the power gain. Needs a tone down IMO, but not a lot of nerfing, just a little to make it take skill or reduce the stats very slightly.

    Maybe by making ESFs more accessible without dumbing them down a lot would be great and increase the prevalence of ESFs everywhere, thus increasing the A2G, which also increases A2A. Win/win right there.
    Hah, sometimes I rant too much :p

    By "lacks depth" I mean that it functions like a CoD arena shooter. The only things that matter are dodging, aiming and who has better equipment for A2A and nothing else. Awareness is semi-useless, since it is a great advantage over new/OK pilots but ones that know how to reverse maneuver just defy gravity and put themselves in a favorable position. No other maneuver or tactic has any real advantages except for looking cool (With the exception of hover-dueling). Not mentioning that it's a pain in the butt to even get into the air game.

    The problem with fear is that it only works on new pilots up to pilots of decent quality. If a real skyknight is in the same situation, obviously he won't be there for long, but he'd just complete his strike, pull back, repair and attack from a different angle or do the same thing since AA can't kill him, but only deter him, which is a pretty big issue.
    Great, more people lecture me about stuff that I already know and which I've already mastered, enemy has a ton of infantry, get serious AI with tanks, air or spamming sticky nades and pull a MAX, enemy has ground vehicles, pull AV, enemy has air superiority, get some AA. No thanks, it's the reason why K/D on my alts is 7+.
    Interesting, I'm all in for more unique air vehicles and more variety and more air vehicles in general, but I think that DBG won't do it, and if the current ESF system is improved, it'll be just as good and be just as fine, though I think that implementing ES CAS would be a good thing.
    That's like saying that in order to counter 20 guys, you must get 200 guys to kill them and calling it easy to organize, find and group up enough people to kill some random players who took no effort to group up, organize and defend against overwhelming numbers. Everything in this game is piss easy if you outnumber 10-1, but you can't outnumber 10-1 on EVERY battle. And I'd like to see you try and fail to organize squads like these in non-organized outfits and in Europe, with the gigantic language barrier and players just wanting to have fun and enjoy themselves, teamwork isn't readily available at all times and is pretty rare.

    And the solo argument is terrible, because almost everything in the game is doable/counterable solo, which is IMO a massive strength of the game, because you don't have to constantly rely on a bunch of people in your faction which usually happen to be a little more than a bunch of morons. You can, in this game, very easily as one guy counter another single guy. You're going to have problems with multiple people, sure, but that's what numbers are about, giving an advantage to one of the sides.

    I really don't get the argument, I can very easily dispatch a tank in this game solo using C4, AV mines, pulling another tank, getting some long range AV, I can very easily kill an infantryman with countless tools and methods alone, but in order to counter the most lone-wolf, self-reliant thing in this game I need to group up with a ton of people to even kill the damn things? What sort of reasoning and balance is that?
    An air player who is actually pretty reasonable and has put some thought into responding instead of calling me flat-out bad and that I need to L2P? Holy crap I'm surprised.

    Hey, even if I don't like it, it's at least your opinion, and I believe that you have said some pretty reasonable things in your thread.
    If I wasn't so shockingly bad at explaining things, you would've understood my point the way I intended to. More meant it in the sense that they aren't the only factors in the air game.

    For example, in Infantryside, there are a ton of things to account for and a ton of factors : Cover, aim (Which is more than simply pointing and clicking and compensating for drop, things like burst control, CoF management, ADS modifiers), dodging, situational awareness, class setup and play-style etc. Because there are so many factors, aim and dodging matter less overall, of course, they matter a crap ton, because it's a FPS combined arms game, obviously they should and are the biggest factor in any such game, but they are but a factor among many, so aim and dodging isn't some I-win condition as in the air game.

    While you bring a good point with the floor/ceiling reduction and with the law, which some of my favorite games are based around, you also forget another thing : too much of something is always very bad, including the skill floor/skill ceiling.

    So to give an example, the current air game is a huge bounce between the extremes when it comes to skill. Insanely hard to learn to the point when I'd just like to punch myself multiple times to make me feel better, and pretty easy to master once you get the hang of it. But over-rewarding for skill is a huge issue too, because I've seen multiple times that pro pilots just roflstomp multiple air pilots without much challenge and nothing really stops them. Even if someone is the most insanely skilled tanker or infantryman, others at least stand a chance, and more often than not have a pretty good chance at actually beating him, because there are a ton of factors and skills that decide the engagement, and unless he beats you at all of those both of you are at equal ground.

    In the air game? If he is at least a LITTLE more skilled than you at aiming/dodging, prepare to instantly lose unless you get an advantage by AA support or another friendly ESF shows up. If he's more skilled than you? You won't even bring him down to 33% of his health. That's a fact, arena FPS skill matters too much and nothing else matters at all. New pilots can't even fight back in any way when in the air, while on the ground they can fight back and even get a kill on a more skilled player. That's the problem, new people don't have any form of power and the entire A2A part of the game is completely locked off for them unless they learn it, which is notoriously hard and takes a ton of time.

    It's insanely flawed not only because the new players have very little and don't know much or anything at all, but also because skyknights are given so much power that they faceroll everything in the air that isn't of similar or higher skill level than them.
    I know that well, I definitely don't even come close to the amount of experience that dedicated pro pilots have, but hey, at least that's how I experience it back at Miller/Cobalt and Emerald to some extent. I'm definitely not a very good pilot, but as a guy who has seen what other people do I'm pretty confident that what I say is at least slightly relevant.

    I'm still a ****ter by pro pilot standards, but at least I ain't the stank of the stank.

    At least this is a reasonable discussion.

    Unfortunately, I'm so full of myself I couldn't resist but try to make a point. But if you insist on doing so, ignore everything else I've written and respond to these :

    1. How can I become a better pilot and can I get a good guide for becoming a better one? (Understanding the problem from both sides will make for a much less biased and better opinions on the subject, and possibly also find a good solution for it)

    2. What is your opinion on flying and all mechanics about it? You've got a lot of experience with it after all.

    3. What is your opinion on G2A and AA in general? Again, while the questions are simple and a bit boring, I can't think of any good ones about the topic.

    4. Do you have any problems with air vehicles while piloting and when you're on the ground? While server cultures are vastly different from one other, there's at least got to be a common decently easy solution that doesn't require a ton of manpower and a ton of teamwork, because for me it's not readily available.
  8. Jake the Dog

    Im going to chime in here. Pretty sure my 450 nanite MBT is dead faster than 3s against libs, and about 4-5s against a hornet (******) pilot.
  9. DeadlyOmen

    Holy crap! Do you beg for mercy like this in real life too?

    that must be a joy to listen to.
  10. Cyropaedia

    This thread is really messy. When you read "Skyknightside" in Title you think of someone supporting or opposing A2A Lock-Ons. Then I open the thread and see 3 different points unrelated to A2A Lock Ons that each deserve their own thread. Lately, critics of Air make "omnibus" Nerf Air threads because they know slight adjustments (i.e. current changes to Air noseguns on PTS) does not help their cause for a major, damaging Nerf.
  11. cobaltlightning

    I'm still in my own little cubicle of 'Give Starting Launchers AA Capabilities.'
    Granted, Tweaking will of course be needed, but it'd be simple enough that the new players can figure it out, and severely help the F2P Aspect of the game. Right now, the only reliable newbie AA Options either costs Certs, Nanites, or Station Daybreak Cash.
    Not counting the AA Turrets, of course, but the newbie likely is still learning how to lead targets once they even find one that's either not destroyed or not hacked.

    It gets lonely in this cubicle. And cramped...
  12. Jawarisin


    Being full of it myself, I'll answer to your post AND your questions ;)
    Most as in 99% if not all pilots I know don't call people flat out bad unless they are being insulted. I'm not familiar with cobalt/miller. But I know just about everybody who's flown more than a few times on emerald. Most of them are also located on reddit, this forum has many.... issues. Let's call it that way. So in case you're interested: reddit.com/r/planetside and reddit.com/r/emeraldps2

    I actually see it another way. Infantry just has more place for luck. But otherwise, it's EXTREMELY biased against someone who can headshot/aim properly. I strongly suggest going to watch some of JHFO (JustHereForOrion)'s videos. It's basically a non-stop rolfstomping of everything in sight because if you can headshot, you do 250% more damage than a body-shot (because of nanoweave armor bringing non-HS to 80%). It gets even more pronounced if the player hits the legs.
    Add on top of that having a superior accuracy. So not only will you hit more, but you'll hit extremely hard. If you can aim very well, you don't even need to dodge or do anything special to win against every non-top player in this game. [Infantry just allows for more luck to happen. You could just get a hit with that dumbfire you shot. Or you could also just end up getting the jump on someone. Your Hipfire could magically hit ever single shot too. Also, the biggest factor: there is a LOT of players of all skill levels around.

    I actually find the air-game to be extremely easy to learn now compared to before. I've seen a few players just come around on teamspeak, and start from scrub level up to top-end pilot fairly fast. Nowadays, you can get an esf every 7 minutes. the old ressource system ticked every 4 minutes, and you were not guaranteed any ressources. So it could easily be an esf/30 minutes or per hour. Add a timer to pulling on top of that.... The air-game really isn't that hard to get into. Mastering it yes, but becoming decent enough to kill most plebs around? It really doesn't take that much.

    When you see a pro pilot rolfstomp a few newbs, you have to remember - this happens on infantry all the time too. It's just hidden in a swarm of bad players. But if you followed any of the top players around, you'd see them mow down whole squads alone sometimes. Here's an exemple: pay attention to his chat box with the kill feed:

    And in the same way, an experienced pilot will beat low-skill players that just hopped in an ESF for their ESF-run of the month. It just maybe feels worst because you lost nanites and in the air, the luck factor is very small, so you are more aware of how much you got stomped on. While on infantry, it happens very fast so you might not understand it fully, or an excuse like lag is something most players come up with.

    Skyknights aren't given anything. They earned it - there's a difference. And as I said, it's the same on infantry, it's just drowned in an ocean of bad players around.

    You've just admitted something I have rarely if ever seen on the forum. Bravo. And yes, some of what you say is relevant, but there's also angles that are missing. Kind of like if I was trying to talk about tank balance. I must of spent a few hours in tanks over the years. I am in no place to talk about tank vs tank balance because I simply don't have the experience nor the full picture.

    1- First thing I was told when I asked someone what to do was: google learn2flyesf and go to the wordpress forum. Some of the information on there is deprecated, but if anything, they have a nice enough explanation of the reverse maneuver and why you do each part of it. But it's definetly not a big guide, nor any kind of law guide.
    If you want a "guide", just ask one of the known top pilots on your server, preferably one that isn't self-proclaimed, but one you actually see rolfstomping people in the air. And just ask them to do a few duels because you're trying to improve. Most of them will be more than glad to help you if they are not otherwise occupied. I don't remember anybody EVER telling me they had a bad response by asking for honest help to a pilot.
    Also, I would steer clear of a lot of the "advice" that's said on the forum/reddit. There's relevant information, but it's drowned in bad one - and unless you know the bad from the good, it'll just end up being bad. For instance, a lot of players willl try to tell you to run in a squad. From my experience, this is not a good idea. Having a wingman is fine, but a squad? You won't end up learning much. Running solo on the other end will force you to improve your situational awareness and learn to get better instead of relying on your teamates to do the job. You can be in a squad, just don't stick together.
    Use nosegun+afterburners only, and try to go kill other aircrafts. Don't give up. Try to conserve nanites for ESFs. Do duels with better players. Practice and try to get better. As I've read somewhere at some point. If you don't hit them the first time, it's fine. Try landing one bullet the next time, then two, then three. Point being, just focus on improving.
    Also, most importantly: Have fun doing so :) This is a game, and we pilots fly because we like it.
    I remember getting turbodunk'd when I first started playing. The PREY folks would roll on me as soon as I got out of the warpgate. But I kept coming at them, kept trying; and now I'm flying with them. But I got my own share of turbodunk with the old ressource system. But not giving up is the key.
    If you enjoy them, watching a few videos of really good players is also a good thing. I strongly suggest rguitar if that interests you. https://www.youtube.com/user/rguitar87/videos
    His most recent: 2 months ago:


    2-Flying mechanics are ok. I'm kind of annoyed at those changes they made to make keys respond like controllers; but they've mostly fixed it now. It's still not the same, but it's fine. Otherwise, mechanics are pretty fun, they allow planetside2-only stuff. Like there's only in planetside where you can have a dogfight around and below a biolab at full speed. Only in planetside can you fly backwards/upwards with someone chasing you while you're both trying to land the shots on each other for better or worst. It's a unique flight model, and that's what's fun about it. There's plenty of flight simulators out there, but there's only one planetside. It allows for insane maneuvers that you can't really do in any other game. There's no other game in which I can eject from my vehicle, repair it mid-air to extinguish the fire, and get back in. There's no other game where I can solo man a bomber-style aircraft and give it the proper momentum to send it flipping through the air while I try to line up a shot on another aircraft with an anti-vehicle gun (dalton).

    3- AA is mostly fine. Tomcats should be removed from the game, but eh. Hopefully with the nerf they're about to take, they wont be as broken as before. Galaxy are way overpowered, but not many people use them - even less so use them effectively; so it's not too big of an issue. But they might need a nerf eventually if people start using them more.
    G2A has too much range on some guns like the flak turrets. There's no reason I should be getting pelted at 1200m - way out of render distance for any ground target - by some random guy in an AA turret.
    I find a bunch of those automated turrets are problematic; but that's about it. I do think walkers could use a velocity reduction if anything; but I'm used to it I guess. Honestly, I find that except the excessive range (nothing should be hitting me over 1000m away when they dont even render for me) most of it is in a good place as far as g2a is concerned.

    4- I don't have a problem with air. Never really did. The only times when air is a problem is when the based is zerg'd so hard that there's 5-10 aircrafts overhead. But that usually means there's 20 tanks pelting the spawn, and 10x our number in infantry all around anyways. So it's not like air is a problem, it's just another factor in the zerg.

    When I'm in an air vehicle, I don't mind other aircrafts. I like a challenge, so I don't mind going way against the odds.

    As far as solutions, there's plenty out there. g2a launcher works fine against ESF. I actually prefer to dumbfire even if I suck at it; but it's always fun when I manage to get it. Otherwise there's usually plenty of AA turrets everywhere. If you're at a base with no AA turrets, you don't have a g2a launcher and you don't want to dumbire. You can always pull a walker/basilisk harasser. Those work quite well too. There's also AA maxes - which you can simply the arms to AI or AV at anytime when you want to switch job. Skyguards also work amazing. Any tank (not a fan of viper lightning for this...) to hit aircrafts can work too, but you need the right position. You can pull a walker or basilisk sundy too. If you have two gunners that aren't completely terrible, a sundy like that is pretty much invulnerable to air and wrecks havoc way too hard.

    There's always the other option to ignore the aircraft and not stand in a tiny grouped ball with your faction's zerg or group. If an ESF can go for a lone player or a group, it'll go for the group.
    My favorite solution remains to pull an aircraft myself; but that's because I like flying anyways, so I get to kill two ducks with one stone. (or a good ol dumbfire in one of them if I can manage that. I really freaking love it but I just suck at landing those rockets :3)
  13. Jawarisin

  14. Jake the Dog

    This reminds me... I want to practice dogfighting with you again at some point. been kitting out my mossie on Connery. Rotary/AB/FS/hover/stealth or NAR (both are maxed). I think I've improved a bit since we last dueled, you can probably still fly circles around me but it would be interesting to see.
  15. Jawarisin


    That'd be a slight complicated. I'm currently off in another country on a laptop - nothing that can support planetside 2. I'll be back in about 5 months. So no planetside 2 for a while for me ^^

    But if you want to duel, just hop on honk's TS and I'll redirect you to a few people that would be more than happy to duel a bit with you.
  16. Alexkruchev


    This generally occurs for two reasons: People are playing the game to gain certs, to unlock and upgrade their gear/vehicles. AA does not reward significant certs because AA kills are very, very difficult to achieve. 9/10 times, the air target you are firing at will get away alive. There are no instagib AA weapons (Like tank mines and C4) that allow a high-risk, high-reward option for single players: It simply does not exist:

    Ground to Air kills only occur when the air pilot made a mistake and allowed himself to die.
    Or
    When Ground to Air fire is disproportionate to the air presence: Such as when 2 ESFs are focused on by multiple skyguards/bursters.

    The result of this situation is that you do not get the satisfaction, or kill bonus in engaging in G2A gameplay that you do from anything else. They are failing to pull AA because they know that AA is simply ineffective- and a surefire way to get yourself focused by said A2G farmer. About every time I pull an AA vehicle with a lib around, it focuses me before I can kill (Or even smoke it). Not worth doing. Or firing a G2A lock on- but lock ons are -seriously- flawed. They often track right into the ground or a tree if an ESF knows how to dive maneuver and make the missile think the best intercept path is... down into the ground at the user's feet. Furthermore, anyone with flares can -ignore- one lock on- including a volley of nearly infinite lockons should he flare while multiple launches occur.

    Finally, the max lock-on range of most lock ons is so short- an esf can traverse from 5m from launcher to out of range in one afterburn: Ensuring that any ESF who takes more than one lock on hit is entirely to blame for it- if they have flares, it should be impossible for an ESF to even take a hit, unless you are taking focused, planned fire: Which is almost never the case.

    To test this, I unlocked flares and took my reaver (the slowest, easiest ESF to hit) out, and intentionally baited HA's to lock me. I never took more than one hit before being out of range- while -watching- them desperately trying to get a lock and fire. I should note I did run rank one of vehicle stealth. The end point here is simple: air counters are either unreliable and disproportionately expensive (a la skyguard), or completely ineffective (g2A lock ons, Ranger). Any pilot who knows how to manage his altitude (ideally, close enough for LOLpod spam, far enough up that you can climb away before the lock on can occur.) is totally immune to G2A fire that does not come from small arms fire, which is itself so ineffective that it needs not be mentioned. (Except in cases where it's focus and prevalence is -incredibly- disproportionate, such as if a squad of 12 memebers focus fire LMGs at a single hovering ESF at close range.)
    • Up x 1
  17. OldMaster80

    Ok so in order to take down 3 ESFs we're supposed to coordinate almost 3 full squads. Nice, considered most of classes have no weapons at all to deal with aircraft.
    Unless you believe it's a smart behaviour shooting ESFs with carbines, shotguns or scout rifles.
    • Up x 1
  18. Moz

    Its absolutely nothing like saying that at all!

    Force multipliers are just that multipliers! Comparing a 1 v 1 infantry fight to a single infantry against an ESF means nothing in this context!

    You can 1 v 1 an ESF sure, easier in a group though..... You can 1 v 1 that MBT as well, easier and better in a group though! Sure you can take down that MAX on your own.... who cant..... Easier and more efficient in a group though.

    PS2 is a GROUP game!

    Your struggling with anything in Planetside you group up! That's the whole idea!

    This game CANNOT and SHOULD NEVER be balanced around 1v1 of ANY SORT!!!

    WTF is the point in having so many players and then lone wolfing everything?
  19. Moz


    Nope but they set them on fire rendering them useless and in need of retreat.... and still have a second shot in the turret!!

    You need to know how to MBT to do this. Find a slope to increase you upward line of fire!
  20. Pelojian

    'oh the poor aircraft has to retreat' woe is them who can demolish vehicles and infantry alike quickly and efficiently has to leave the fight for 30 seconds and attack from another angle, attack, rinse repeat. if infantry or vehicles over extend they die, if air overextends vs ground forces they escape rather then die.

    air deserves no sympathy, they've benefited from broken balance for far too long ruining people game experience with A2G farming and whining when anything is made or suggested that will bring them closer to balance or prevents them farming players who have no real defenses they can use.
    • Up x 1