[Guide] Rabid Construction: Episode 11, Anti-base ops

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by RabidIBM, Sep 1, 2020.

  1. RabidIBM

    I was going to get some more screen shots before doing this one, but somebody on this forum called PMBs OP last night. So, here's a run down on all the effective methods of kicking over someone else's sand castle:

    Method 1, tanks: I'm sure we've all seen this before, but I'll still give it a mention. Obviously a full platoon in tanks kicks the thing over quickly, but that's not efficient. You can still do it with only a few tanks, you just need to focus fire. Start with the AV turrets, then move around from there. It almost doesn't matter what building you are shooting so long as you are shooting the same building. Repair modules repair fast enough to negate 1 player's worth of damage. Have one player calling targets, and team mates who actually cooperate. "Target is [name the building], watch for my trace" *bang* "squad open fire" *blata rata tata*, no more building. "new target..." etc.

    Method 2, cortium bombs: I'll say it, cortium bombs are the most OP thing in PS2 right now, and I can justifiably say that because I use them. They were designed as a counter play to a play style the folks designing them don't play, so they never play tested them with the board turned around and have absolutely no idea how OP the thing they created is. There are a few ways to deliver them:

    -Bring a cloak sunderer, deploy as infiltrator, only ever decloak to deploy a cortium bomb, or equip a new cortium bomb. The automatic defenses won't shoot you when you are cloaked, and don't have the DPS to kill you in the time it takes to drop a cortium bomb. Receiving damage doesn't interrupt cortium bomb placement, so you could walk right up to a pain spire, plop down a bomb, and walk out having only lost your shields. Your first cortium bomb should be on the spawn tube, as the bomb does enough damage to 1 shot it and shut down reinforcements. The cortium bomb bleeps for 20 seconds before exploding, redeploy takes 10 seconds, and spawning on a spawn tube takes 15 seconds for a total of 25 seconds to respond if the base owner mashes redeploy the instant the alarm module pings. Once the spawn tube is down, you are free to re-equip endless cortium bombs off of your sunderer. They are basically free, as I've never heard of anyone running out of merit points. You can place a new cortium bomb before the first one explodes and they both function. I did once have 3 cortium bombs out at once, but forgot to get the screen shot.

    -If for whatever reason a cloak sunderer is not an option, then you'll want to bring a router. Ideally, your victim is rookie enough to have built a bunker. Never never never EVER build bunkers folks. The infantry console in them gets hacked an used by your enemies. If you want an infantry console for yourself, deploy a sunderer, or just redeploy to reequip. Here are a couple screen shots for examples:
    [IMG]
    [IMG]
    This was an OS base built in range of my base, so I had to deal with it. Luckily for us, there was a bunker. My buddy didn't have cortium bombs unlocked, so he pulled what used to be the most dangerous thing to come from the infantry console: an AV MAX with infinite ammo. In this case the owner got lucky, and was returning with cortium right as we hit, and road killed me while I was alt tabbed saving a screen shot, but these things happen.
    If there aren't any bunkers in the base, then just find somewhere hidden to drop a router, and redeploy after each cortium bomb. If they've built at the bottom of a hill, the up on the hill is a good place for the router, just make sure to equip safe fall implant. Otherwise, look for some other awkard corner to hide it. A personal favorite of mine after the bunker is the infantry tower. So, a warning to other builders, the infantry tower is a double edged sword. The raised position of the top floor plus 360 degrees of shielded windows means these become great firing positions for attackers to spawn into. If you are putting a router in one of these, place it here:
    [IMG]
    This is on the top floor, across from the stair well, and also not under the skylight. The best ways to not have to deal with this as a defender are to place a pain spire beside every infantry tower, and delete any that don't honestly need to be there.

    Method 3, build a mortar base: Things your require for this method are:
    -The glaive - To de-power the sky shields
    -The flail - To deliver the actual damage
    -Turret AI module - The flail and glaive require this to fire
    -Stalker cloaking on your infiltrator
    -One cooperative teammate, who does not require (but there is a list of good to have) any unlocks, but must deploy as a stalker infiltrator.
    Also good to have available:
    -Logistic specialist implant
    -Sweeper HUD implant
    Unlocks that are good for the assistant to have, but not required:
    -Elysium spawn tube
    -Light vehicle pad, or light air pad - If you get yourself killed, these make take two happen a lot more quickly
    -Sky shield module
    -Anti aircraft defensive turret - The best counter to a mortar base is an air strike

    Your personal build for using a flail+glaive anti base should be stalker infiltrator with Sweeper HUD and Logistic specialist implants if you have them. If you don't own those implants, that is not a show stopper, but they are very good to have.
    If you are building a base of your own, but want to maintain the ability to build an anti base as well, leave your flail, glaive and one AI module unplaced. Once you become aware of an enemy base that needs to be destroyed, the steps are:
    -Place your personal way point on the target. This is for range purposes. The flail has a maximum range of 600m. I have never proven the maximum range of the glaive, but it is more than 600m.
    -Announce that you need at least one assistant to remove that base, that the assistant does not require unlocks, but will need to follow direction, and must deploy as a stalker infiltrator. This is where the logistic specialist is handy, it saves some messing around.
    -Spawn an ant, get yourself some cortium and find a somewhat hidden spot in range of the target
    -Get your assistant to place a silo, you probably already own one. Then place your flail, glaive, and AI module to power them. If you place your AI module a bit farther away from the mortars instead of beside them, your assistant can place the AA turret within it's power range as well.
    -Have your assistant draw either of the flail or glaive targeting darts and draw the other yourself. This is the other reason you need an assistant, one player may only carry one targeting dart.
    -Head on over to the target, stay cloaked at all times other than to fire the darts. Move after every dart you fire to make it more difficult to find you. Watch out for dark light flashlights and motion spotters.

    Here are a couple examples of this playing out:
    [IMG]
    At this point, my PL has marked the enemy base with Alpha way point and request that I kill it.
    [IMG]
    A couple minutes later this was up. My assistant had a bit to offer, but I got delayed because I had screwed up and spawned as an engineer. It's kinda habitual when pulling a vehicle.
    [IMG]
    And we're in...oh noes...don't kill my ant that I'm done with!

    And here's one on the NC front
    [IMG]
    In this case multiple assistants spawned in. I didn't specifically request the pain spire, but hey, won't do any harm, might do some good.

    And a bit on howler mining lasers. They do work...eventually. I'm not including them as a main method because honestly, they are a victim of power creep. There were relatively powerful when they were added, but since cortium bombs got added they just don't compete as a method to take down bases anymore. I'm not sure what the 9/9 thing is meant to be about. Honestly, if someone could explain that I would appreciate it.
    [IMG]
    So, anyone still think constructed bases are OP?
    • Up x 1
  2. LordKrelas

    First one, is a literal focus of MBTs, fully-manned against a base without defenders.
    And is very dry for the attackers - with bare bones rewards for most of them.

    2nd One, relies on Outfit resources being spent, with little active defenders watching for it, and constantly using very specific Class & Vehicles nearby to attack; another slog, with little reward.

    3rd method, is a slog, requiring you to build an Entire base with the construction system, having spent this time, massive amounts of certs & time, to create an PMB to attack an PMB - assuming no Opposing artillery or OSC on said PMB.
    Another Slog - the base's creation being more EXP than the kills.


    So, all three are slogs, that are incredibly time-consuming & unrewarding when they work.
    The 2nd & 3rd, are quite literally Builder-Attacks-Builder, and are as niche as possible.
    You apparently don't know, the best method , that came from Executing hives; MAX Drop on the silo. It doesn't take many.
    It's faster than tanks, costs the same, and takes less active time shredding walls or towers, for nearly the same EXP. And since there ain't a hive to Murder your MAX team, you can move the MAXes for another kill.

    If this stuff was required to progress down a lane, it would be an unrewarding slog to be an attacker on the lane.
    As most elements, are PvE for the attackers, in a kill=joy way.
    • Up x 1
  3. RabidIBM

    First of all, thanks for the input. Even though it had a negative tone, it's nice to have my threads not simply fall to the depths right away. However, you are mistaken about some things.

    The tank method does not depend on the base being unmanned. The AV defensive guns have weaker damage than tank guns, and do not have the ability to fall back behind cover when damaged. They also have a very short range at which they will return fire when automated. If the tankers know what they are doing, they will destroy the base with relative ease unless countered with some other play like an air strike. As for the "bare bones rewards", apparently the rewards are enough, because run ins with tanks are an occupational hazard for builders. The sight of tanks is pretty much the end of your base unless you are embedded with a cooperative platoon.

    Cortium bombs are not an outfit resource. They are purchased with merit in the sanctuary. At no point are outfit resources required. As for the requirement to be undefended, not exactly. The defenders need to be busy. If there is a rockin good battle going on, there is way to much gunfire to have any hope of hearing the little bleeps out of the cortium bombs. I've personally been on both ends of that one.

    Yes, mortar bases require you to play construction...this is an episode of "Rabid Construction" buddy. As for the time required, it is very little. These are the fastest bases to establish, as there is no requirement to fill the silo. The first load of 10k is all you need, as the base's reason to exist dies with its target. Gathering the cortium should only take a minute or two, getting team mates to spawn in is concurrent activity, the base goes up in about two minutes, and you're off. If everything goes smoothly (big if, I know) the amount of time from discovery of the enemy base to shells falling is little more than 5 minutes.

    As for the MAX method, I lead plenty "pimple popping parties" myself back when hives were a thing. They would still work, they are however an enormous commitment. When the value of a HIVE could add up to be more than owning all 3 tech plants on the old victory points system, this commitment could easily be justified, but this is no longer the case. The point of my methods here is to be efficient with the manpower.

    As for the bit about construction making a "joyless slog", I couldn't disagree more. It is far more fun to progress down a lane when there is resistance to overcome, creating a changing battle and minor objectives to achieve along the way. Even throw in a level of uncertainty as to whether or not we will even make it to the next base, and this is far more exciting than an unopposed drive up the road. If I were to describe something as a "joyless slog", I would say bio lab, or T.I. Alloys.

    And now, finally: *ahem* ... CAMPAGNE! I see you lurking! Don't just skulk in the shadows of the internet clicking "like" on any negative reply to my thread, answer my challenge you coward!
    • Up x 1
  4. Campagne

    Lurking? Hardly, you haven't responded to me!

    I didn't just instantly like any statement which disagrees with you, I liked the post because I agree with it completely, and because it means I don't have to type all that crap up myself anymore.

    Your ""challenge,"" ah yes. And what was that? Record some gameplay or whatever? It's really quite a waste of time to provide some anecdotal circumstantial evidence of a form of gameplay I've stated to dislike on multiple occasions just because some random guy doesn't like what I have to say. :p

    And what would prevent me from just editing out anything that didn't completely, totally, and utterly in support of my position? The numbers speak for themselves and don't present falsehoods or biases, and don't waste anyone's time.
  5. LordKrelas

    Fantastic.

    If the base was manned, the Builders would have Liberators.
    Liberaters say No to any small number of tanks like less than 5.

    The rewards are: Pitiful amounts of EXP for time per structure - Builder got EXP for repairs, Construction, Mining, any Turret Kills, their own Kills etc etc.
    Why tanks show up; You are trying to make a Base on a road, just OC'ed something, are a spawn-point, or are harassing the hell out of a lane -- These are why they die, but it doesn't make it rewardings.

    HIVEs were horrid rewards for attackers, and were attacked within minutes if possible.
    This is due to their risk factor, for locking the entire map killing every fight at the same time - and were handled in the same fashion as Builder Defenses Handle attackers; Unrelenting with Kill-joy behavior.

    Knowing & doing the Dismantling of any painful Grind-pit, does not make it enjoyable or rewarding.


    This episode was spurred, about countering construction. Hence comment.
    The 2nd option to apparently counter construction, is to literally have invested millions into Construction.
    ACE ESF Pilot Vs ACE ESF Pilot in A2A Combat, does not make for practical G2A Interaction.

    An MBT is 450 Nanites.
    A Liberator is 450 Nanites.
    A MAX is 450 Nanites.
    Without the HIVE Killing everyone, every asset including the Galaxy is re-usable, with the speed of map-reaching range.
    The Value of a Hive to attackers is: This is literally going to lock the map, killing every fight.
    So the fastest most reliable way of ensuring a kill, that didn't rely on being Pilots was the meta option.
    If you can field multiple MBTs, you can field this; If you can't, Why aren't you fielding a Liberator if this is pre-planning.

    Joyless Slog in killing construction.
    You fire a shell at a wall, tower, or building that auto-repairs, and automatically fires back.
    That isn't resistance, that's literally waiting for an wall to finish a death animation.'
    There is barely a player involved, and it's near identical at most PMBs; As they're built to remove any desire to attack them.

    The Solution to them, is akin to Spawn-Camping the Spawn-Room, less than 10 seconds into a fight, or firing at the nearest wall for a few minutes.
    If the Defenders are actually involved, they're trying to prevent as much interest as possible, with as little exposure as possible.
    If they're idiots, they're exposing themselves & letting themselves actually be fought , rather than Grind their opponents with as much deterrents as possible -- But this is from fighting people who Want to Win every fight, at the cost of anything.

    At TI-Alloys, at least you're fighting actual people, with gaining the same EXP as them.
    With Construction, the Builder can go AFK in a corner, or actually fight, while you, you get to fight a wall , automated-Towers & a pain-field now a-days, in the most atypical Optimized Pattern.
    And if you don't want to waste time, you spend Nanites, and kill it so damn fast, in the most inglorious way possible that the Builder can't react - Making their Effort in building it gone in a flash of light.

    If you don't, you get stuck in fighting a wall.
    Hey, least Builders can't force attackers to be automatically lit ablaze by touching the ground via Skyshields... anymore.

    Fighting Construction is literally PvE, while the Builder gets bonus EXP from it, on top of engaging in PvP.
    Unlike the Attacker - Whom gets pity EXP when the Building that is auto-repairing finally dies.
    Back in the HIVE days, even worse comparisons, since HIVE Boost to the Builders, while the Attackers if too far away thanks to all the defenses, would get no multiplier at all.


    It isn't a joyous time, to fire at a brick wall, controlled by the AI, since another player mined a rock 2 hours ago, at 2-3x the EXP value , and afk'd in the corner, leaving behind Self-repairing walls & Turrets, that are now a time-sink for everyone else.
    And if they didn't just AFK in the corner, they can wipe out Lattice-Bases with an OSC to force the Players to spend more time, fighting brick walls.



  6. Johannes Kaiser

    Two letters for that. N.O.
    My outfit and me have occasionally been building bases that often ended up pretty far away from a front line. Granted, we started them on the "open build spot" bases with the 1 minute timer, but by the time we were finished the front was 3 bases ahead, if not more. Yet all manner of ground and air vehicles keep showing up, despite there being absolutely no point in doing that. The most hilarious one actually went on for about one hour of our base being whittled down until shortly before the alert ended. 5 defenders, 8 attackers most of the time, total nanites wasted on their part (judging by destroyed vehicles) ~ 7000. For literally no effing reason.

    Other times we were building away from everything to train building and base ppanning a bit, suddenly a small tank squad shows up for no discernible reason (we far in our own territory) and destroys our not yet finished base in one minute.
  7. RabidIBM

    Ok guys, you are further proving with every post that you are griping about something you don't personally play, because every time you demonstrate another knowledge gap. I will reiterate, if you know what you are doing, bases fall fast. If you are "getting stuck in a grind" against a PMB, you don't know what you are doing. That's fine, that's actually the whole point of these threads is to teach people how to play this currently obscure part of the game. This way it can become more common, and we can all have a more complete, more varied time when playing PS2. I know some people manage to enjoy 5 continuous hours of bio lab, but I say variety is the spice of life (and gaming). If you were to actually play this facet of the game, you would learn how to counter it in the process. This is also the logic behind me having made a character on all factions back in 2013. When I hear folks griping that something is OP, I hop over to the faction that owns it, unlock it, play with it, learn it, and by extension learn to counter it. I even apply this logic to construction, in that in addition to the role of lead builder that I've taken in my outfit, I also generally head up any base destruction that needs to be done.

    And that, Campagne, is the base line for the challenge I made to you in the thread where you called construction OP. I challenged you to play construction, and demonstrate that it is OP. Show me it being OP when you are using it. If you can do that, you have a legitimate case that it is OP. If you can't do that, then you're just bad, and whining about the thing you don't know how to beat. It's not that it can't be beaten, it's that you can't beat it, and you think that the game should be reshaped to accommodate you and how you want to play, rather than that you should have to learn. You're no different than anyone else who complains that a gun they die to a lot, but can't use well should be removed from the game. I'm so insistent on this challenge because you challenged me to demonstrate how construction could be fun, after I had episode 10 out. Further to that, I played a base last night that I don't have an episode out for yet, we had a blast, and episode 12 comes out later today. Oh, and really? You only clicked like because you agree with the whole thing? Even the bit where cortium bombs cost outfit resource? You agree with that? (LordKrelas, I'm not ripping you here, these things happen. I'm ripping on this guy's flimsy excuses)

    Now, back to LordKrelas. Builders typically don't have Liberators because the air pad we have only makes Valks and ESFs, and we have far fewer players to work with. In order to have Liberators, we would have to draw from elsewhere, and hover over our base for an unknown amount of time and tie up 2 of our much smaller number of players. Dedicated construction units are rarely more than a squad. That said, I have found that they pair well with pilot squads, but still, we're talking ESFs here, not libbies. But yeah, we don't have players just sitting around for hours waiting for something to shoot, we're busy gathering cortium, placing buildings, running routers, running targeting darts etc. In order to have a libby ready, we would need to have the thing sitting on the ground, in an open patch of ground which we don't plan on building on, just waiting for players to hop back in it, and hoping it doesn't die in that time. Hence why you don't typically see libbies around PMBs.

    I'm not going to give any more attention to HIVEs because they've been gone for so long. Yes, they were horrid, but they're gone.

    The rewards for killing bases are apparently enough, as they is no shortage of players trying to. Base busters will even show up to bases that don't impact their own faction, so clearly the incentives are enough.

    As for your multiple references to builders"going AFK", no, just no. Builders are very busy. If you think we go AFK, then you clearly don't build.

    Again, thanks for the input, as much as I find these conversations a bit frustrating, I still would rather see this than see my thread fall to the depths while a "MRUGH I QUIT!" post stays on the front page for months. Seriously folks, please stop responding to those ones.
  8. Campagne

    If bases fall fast when "you know what you are doing," why do you want players to be forced to attack them? Why bother posting a whole bunch of threads about building bases if they won't last long and can't be defended? That seems very counter-intuitive.

    Your "challenge" is as empty as your arguments. Here, have an example: Enforcer-H and Vulcan-H. If a player dies to a harasser with an Enforcer and feels that the weapon is overpowered, simply looking at the stats shows it isn't, but rather the platform it's on is the problem. Looking at the stats of a Vulcan shows it's overpowered. No one has to use or die to a Vulcan to read the numbers and see that.

    I've played with construction. I've built bases and additions to bases, I've had them attacked, destroyed, ignored, and outlast continents. I've attacked bases, lost, won, swamped them with numbers, killed them solo in a Lightning, or just shot everyone in the back of the head with a stalker. Hell, I even boosted over the walls and shields in a harasser a couple times. It's never been particularly fun on either end no matter what, but it sure does suck when there's an equal or greater number of defenders inside when the player is on the outside. I know what it is and how it works, and the fact of the matter is the construction system has far too significant impact on players as is. Forcing them to fight a base is not balanced and is not fun.

    The stats show it's overpowered, I don't need to waste more my time doing something flat out unenjoyable to know what I can learn by reading a list of numbers. You can plug your ears and say "oh you've never played construction" all you want but the reality doesn't change. You ain't getting style points for ya' "mad cuz bad" rhetoric either, that was a plain Jane rendition and I ain't even smirked, son.

    Actually, I think you'll find I asked you to provide a way for the construction system to be fun to the players who don't like the current setup, I.E. everyone else who just goes past you PMB to fight in the actual bases.

    Does the cortium bomb require outfit resources? Well, yeah, it does. It costs 8000 merit to unlock the purchasing of it and costs an additional 20 merit for each bomb resupplied, and is locked behind a rank 6 outfit loyalty wall.
  9. RabidIBM

    Perhaps some of what I said could have been misinterpreted, so let me clarify. Bases fall fast if they attackers are playing right in that PMBs can only compensate for a small amount of imbalance of players, materials, or skill, and only for a limited time. They make for a speed bump, and an anchor for defenders to rally around, buying some needed minutes to regroup and counter attack. If you have been attacking the same PMB for more than about 10 to 20 minutes depending on the size in one session, something is lacking on the attack.

    As for your stat quoting, that's nice. You think you can read something as being overpowered on paper? Show me it being OP in practice. At this point I've think we've done enough back and forth. Do you play on Connery? If so let's meet up some time. Pick a faction (I assume you're NC based on your logo, but even if you aren't I can handle it), grab some players, tell me how many defenders you will have, let's say anywhere between 3 and 12, I will crush your base with an equal player count. Normally, in any situation a greater number of attackers is required, but I'll get it done with equal numbers. Show me PMBs being OP when you are building them. Not in theory, not on paper, not when others are building them. In practice and built by you. If you want build way off in the middle of nowhere to avoid interference from other players, fine. I'll need to be allowed to set up some logistics nearby to simulate this being on the lattice, close to a base my faction owns, and now we are "forced" to deal with you. You know, as much as players are ever "forced" to fight at any base.

    As for your challenge to me, there is no shortage of willingness to attack PMBs. There are squads who dedicate themselves to PMB killing, and any time I'm PLing and say, "Ok, we've captured this base, now lets go kick over that sand castle that's been OSing us!" I generally get positive responses from the folks I'm leading. Players already enjoy attacking PMBs, the shortage is of players who enjoy making them.

    This is reason for my guides. They started with me replying to some people who were complaining that building is under powered, that nobody ever helps them defend their bases, and that they got killed rapidly after having spent hours building. The problem was that their builds were bad, and that I wouldn't have defender their bases either if I'd been a PL at the time. Hence why my guides always include references to the strategic relevance of the base, a basic "why would anyone else care?".
  10. Campagne

    So really nothing changes then. Attackers have the knowledge of how to quickly and efficiently deal with a PMB and either the advantage of numbers or force multipliers or they lose to the defenders and their base.

    Sorry friend, I'm on Miller. I suppose I could create a character for Sean Connery but he'd have literally nothing but the defaults. We'd also rely on your ability to draw in a few players willing to help out with the little escapade while simultaneously assuring no unaffiliated outside interference in the process, purely so we could perform a small number of anecdotal tests while rejecting all statistical and numerical information before and after the fact.

    And you would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for just one little thing: I already said I don't like construction and that I'm not going to play with it.

    There absolutely is. If there weren't, you wouldn't have had to suggest literally forcing players to engage with construction. It's common knowledge that most players in PS2 do not like the construction system and prefer to avoid it entirely.

    And OSes? Nowadays most OSes come from thin air. I even called one in once on a MAX because he was annoying me, and I run a solo outfit. Literally anyone can have the capacity to summon space lasers from the sky on a whim without the help of construction. And these players can even do it while dead with a higher frequency than a PMB OS can even fire when at close range, so no, no one is going to give enough of a **** to go out and kill a base because of one OS in it.

    Perception bias, faulty submission of information. Anecdotal. It doesn't really matter if people give you positive responses, no everyone is going to give feedback, in fact most won't.

    I didn't really ask for the reason. :p
    • Up x 1
  11. RabidIBM

    Nobody is making you reply to my posts, and you obviously have nothing useful to contribute. You have demonstrated yourself to be the standard negative person who has a problem for every solution. At this point I will consider any further posts from you to be troll posts and will not reply.
  12. Campagne

    Ah, how unfortunate it is that in the same post in which you learn how to quote someone you also succumb to acute sodium poisoning.

    Colour me surprised that the guy who ignores things he can't answer for and refuses to deal with the concrete would just go for the classic "you're just a troll lol" when he can't formulate a proper argument.
    • Up x 1
  13. MagnusLee

    Not to rez grenade a quiet thread, but I can attest to there being quite a few people/squads and even platoons specifically set up to target PMBs, and will do so despite where they are and what they are doing. So clearly, this "not fun play style" is somewhat fun for some people. Having been on both sides of the fight, I could take out a defended PMB fairly quickly and easily by myself. Especially if they make some of the bigger mistakes when building. I do my best when building to find a defensible spot that can have some effect on the battles nearby. Then some random flies by and sees my base and goes, ooo, I'm going to get a buddy and ruin someone's hard work that they've spent 20 minutes laying out, building, and then longer feeding the beast, and does it in 5 minutes flat.

    It's the nature of things though, and while some bases I make are way away from things, or an OS base able to hit several very active base targets, I know one thing. My base will be destroyed, and it will go down fast. I've got my favorite places to build based on warpgate location, except for Hossin...still having trouble figuring out good build spots there, but we're hardly ever there for it to matter.

    Rabid, we need to hook up and experiment with some locations, I would love your input and assistance building at these spots.

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