[Vehicle] Prowler may be the worst tank in the game (Slightely in depth, bait title)

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by karlooo, Jul 23, 2020.

  1. karlooo

    That's self explanatory why a Prowler has usually higher vehicle KPU compared to the Vanguard - it does more damage.
    You can't always compare numbers. You should also think outside the box.

    BTW about those new tank additions, you know how useful 'Rampart Projector' is? Nobody uses and it is advised to never purchase it.
    You double your hitbox, glow bright red, couldn't make it easier to hit/notice you. Prowlers deploy doesn't always work, so you're playing with luck if you want to use it in front-line combat.
  2. Johannes Kaiser

    Well, feelings do matter, but statistics even more so.
    Example for feeling disparity: When i shoot at Liberators, they seem to eat all the damage and not care. If I fly it and encounter AA, I only have a few very short seconds to either eliminate the source or frak off. Usually the latter, since I only fly them for funsies and neither I nor my gunners tend to be of the air-specialist kind.
  3. Makora

    I have an idea here. A small one but it might end up being huge.

    The Prowler's cannons load as a couple. That is the main issue here. Why have two barrels if you can't operate them independently?!

    As such, the first (and in the beginning, only) change the Prowler needs is for the barrels to reload themselves independently of one another with no changes to reload speed for either barrel. Meaning, that when you fire once, that barrel will immediately start the 2.5/3.5 second reload for that barrel.

    What this means is that rather operating as a double barrel shotgun, the gun is effectively a double-barrel autocannon. The alpha damage is completely unchanged. You still get two shots immediately and if you spam them as fast as possible, the damage output will not change. At least not drastically.
    But, in the hands of an experienced gunner, they can throttle their fire to instead produce a stable, even and unrelenting stream of shells that can't be timed for "beekaboo" attacks. This would also mean that regarldess of situation, a TR Prowler will have at least one shell loaded at all times.

    This is all hypothetical, of course. Based on my opinion and observations. But I believe that this simple change COULD give the Prowler a more unique and worthwhile role and identity in it's current design. Something I feel it lacks in comparison to the Vanguard and Magrider.
  4. Liewec123

    but youre talking to someone who has it max rank and uses it regularly ;)
    obviously you shouldn't choose it when you're parking on a hill to do long range shots,
    because as you said you're just making yourself bigger target.

    i use it in sunderer garages to cover the sunderer, it stretches the full width of the garage and is high enough to cover the sundy,
    when a harasser or lightning comes along to gank the sundy, instead they're met with a swift death!

    i use it when there is nowhere with cover for the sundy to deploy, like ontop of indar com array,
    a repair sundy is nice and safe behind the shield and the constant repair makes the prowler very tanky,
    plus people can put spitfires behind the shield so that infantry have a hard time pushing.

    and my favourite recent use is using it when i can deploy it outside of a building (somewhere that enemies won't really go),
    and then i can create a little bubble of cover to guard doorways inside while i'm immune to bullets!
    at this base the spawn room is behind the tank, with an allied base to the left and a wall to the right,
    not many angles for enemies to approach it from.
    and from my little godmode bubble i can cover almost every entrance to the base :)

    the shield has its uses you just need to experiment,
    and the uses range from fun (like the godmode bubble inside a base)
    to extremely effective (like defending a sunderer garage)
    i'd recommend that you try playing with the shield, when it works, it works really well :D

    and now we look at nimitz reactor, a weak Nanite Auto Repair that only repairs a tiny percentage of the tanks health.
    the only possible way to get use from it would be to pullback after EVERY SINGLE HIT you take and wait 13.5 seconds
    for the shield to recharge (6s for the "fast" recharge the begin and 7.5s for the 750 damage of tank AP rounds.
    two hits from any AV source will break the shield, at which point you might aswell run NAR instead,
    because NAR will regenerate ALL of your tank's health, not just 20% of it.
    i've made suggestions on how to buff Numbnutz, but unfortunately it isn't a VS thing, so wrel doesn't care.
    • Up x 3
  5. csvfr

    Vehicle KPU is not the same as Vehicle KDR, the latter being what actually corresponds "how many other vehicles a tank kills before it dies". In KPU every user is allowed to pull as many tanks as they want and drive it for as long as they want. Vehicle KPU is more like marginal revenue from economics, the benefit obtained if one additional player pulls a tank. So if you are playing NC and decide to pull a Vanguard, now counting as a unique user for the day, you are expected to kill less enemy vehicles (less benefit obtained) than a TR or VS player pulling their MBT. But this could be explained by TR and VS players being more likely to replace their tank if it gets destroyed, after all the Vanguard is slow and repair intensive, making the lightning more attractive, whereas the other tanks are faster and less repair intensive.
  6. csvfr

    Because then both barrels can share the same reload and aiming mechanics? This is very much in line with TR weaponary sacrificing damage per bullet for more bullets per second.
  7. Liewec123

    VKPU is the best gauge of balance for vehicle combat,
    it is the average number of vehicle kills that a tank scores before getting destroyed.
    for instance yesterday across all AP magrider pulls the average number of vehicle kills before dying was 7.6,
    the average number of vehicle kills by AP Prowlers before dying was 6.3,
    and the average vehicle kills for vanguard was 5.9.
    this is the typical trend as it has been for years, magrider performing best, followed by Prowler, followed by Vanguard.
  8. csvfr

    For instance on Sunday the KPUs for weapons were:
    • Orion VS54 - 12.0
    • T9 CARV - 8.6
    • NC6 Gauss SAW - 9.8
    This is obviousily not the same as KDR, on average people don't kill ~10 guys before getting killed themselves.
  9. Liewec123

    but in this case the VKPU is following the same trend as the VKDR heirarchy always has,
    and also we have no VKDR tracking through voidwell (or even KDR).
  10. NotziMad

    It's not a bait title if you say in the title that it is a bait title!

    :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
  11. csvfr

    KPU is influenced both by usage and effectivness, while a low KDR makes it harder to acheive a high KPU, it also makes it less desirable to do so. Players are simply disinclined to use ineffective weapons for a long time, and as I was saying, NC players might be more tempted to use Lightning tanks instead of MBTs. Especially as the L100 AP and Titan AP have virtually the same DPS (259 vs 261 resp. when fully upgraded), the only reason to pull a Vanguard is if the extra HP can be immediately used, such as when knowingly fighting other MBTs. This can also be seen in the stats:


    Here the VKPU on the NC and TR L100 APs are compared with the Titan AP and P2 AP. As can be seen, NC's L100AP (blue line) beats TR's L100AP (grey line) almost every day in VKPU. This can only be explained by NC users being more willing to stick with the Lightning than TR users, as their MBT is inferior and not used as much, or that they have higher skill than TR users, which is strange but incidentially NC's KDR on the cannon is higher than TR's on dasanfall.

    In any case, what can be safely concluded is that TR's vehicle kills comes primarily from the Prowler with a small contribution from Lightnings, whereas NC's vehicle kills comes from a more balanced mix of Vanguards and Lightnings.
  12. Demigan

    that idea was already offered and denied. You would basically have a permanent barrage if you did that. And where's the justification for getting that much firepower over the others? You would have 51% more damage than the Vanguard for example. Can't you do it with the current 16%?
    • Up x 2
  13. Demigan

    Where did you get the idea that the TR gets the newest technology? If you read more of the lore you would know the TR are the most traditionalists who use proven technology over experimental or high-tech. Also considering they are an army who fights insurgents, pirates and "terrorists" (freedom fighters) for more than a century now, their tech and base vehicles reflect this. The Prowler's two shots are far better suited to deal with infantry and the lightly armored vehicles that faced them on the earth. Their speed and maneuverability are great assets when you want to be as efficient as possible with your vehicle fleet while dealing with attacks that could happen anywhere.
    Unfortunately the TR isn't the sole owner of military-grade equipment on Auraxis. They lost loads of their people, their food and equipment when not everything came through the wormhole. So now the TR have to "make due" with what designs they have... Even so the Prowler outdamages the Vanguard which seems purpose-build by the NC to combat the Prowler.

    The NC on the other hand were a group of corporate giants who went along the expedition through the wormhole by creating one giant conglomerate (a New Conglomerate) to monopolize spaceship construction and be able to make demands of the TR for this expedition. This is why besides a normal workforce and (for a portion future-VS) scientists the NC was able to bring a range of people like insurgents, pirates, mercenaries, highly trained bodyguards and security personel. The NC isn't exclusively guerilla's, but they do have access to them. This is why they aren't afraid to use guerilla tactics, but aren't forced to use exclusively guerilla tactics.
    This "anything goes" attitude allowed the NC to construct the first MAX's from repurposed heavylifter equipment, which fits their description but isn't in-line with guerilla tactics due to it's inflexible nature.
    • Up x 1
  14. karlooo

    It's still missing some defensive capabilities.
    About its maneuverability, its neutral steering is great but reverse speed is terrible.

    I've got a new, much simpler rework idea:
    -(None upgraded) Reverse max speed on level plain increased to 42 KPH.
    -Instead of the tank catching fire on 1000 HP (20% MAX HP) it will now light on fire under 1500 HP (Off the top of my head) due to the highly flammable fuel it uses. Just made this up lol.
  15. Badman76

    Prowlers don't have to deal with the TR minigun harasser though
    • Up x 1
  16. Johannes Kaiser

    True. That alone makes them most powerful MBT, even though more by circumstance than own merit. :)
    • Up x 1
  17. Demigan

    The Prowler has the best acceleration, highest speed coupled with medium maneuverability.
    The Magrider has floaty strafiness, best maneuverability and auto-granted afterburner.
    Vanguard has a btch azz slow butt.

    If any vehicle could get a reverse speed advantage it's the Vanguard that doesn't have any movement advantages yet.

    I'm assuming all tanks are getting upgrades but I'll focus on TR upgrades. They are the most military so a larger focus on tactical variety, combined arms and situational awareness would be key I think. Some of these idea's would probably be available to all 3 factions in some shape or form.

    Marker dust:
    An upgraded form of smoke. This smoke has particles that attach themselves to nearby vehicles and infantry and are visible through any tactical scope (nightvision, heatvision) even through walls. Effectively adds a wire-frame around these people for 10 seconds since last contact. Due to the specificness of the material only friendlies with the right scopes can see this, enemies don't have their scopes configured the right way.

    Grenade farm secondary ability:
    MBT's have a lot of unused buttons that could be used for alternative abilities. The Prowler's concept art contained Grenade farms, groups of grenades jutting from various angles form the Prowler's body. TR's tactical variety comes into play here: The warheads can be quickly filled for a specific role such as Smoke grenades, Airburst ammunition that explodes near the tank to deal damage to nearby infantry and destroys explosives and EMP/concussion grenades powerful enough to function against vehicles as well as infantry. Firing any type puts this secondary ability on cooldown, cooldowns can vary based on what type of grenade you fired. You can fire a specific type using Ctrl, X, C or B. Tapping it causes these to explode outwards close to the vehicle while holding it for half a second causes the grenades to be fired forwards like a Bulldog.

    Artillery deployment:
    When deployed and the drivers seat is empty the vehicle can fire in artillery mode. The owner will receive a paintgun similar to UT's Ion Painter automatically and other infantry can buy a paintgun at the vehicle itself. The paintgun can be used to designate a target after which the Prowler will automatically aim in the air and fire at that spot. Warning sounds are heard (like whistling rounds) to cue in players on the ground that a strike is happening.

    Mortar/artillery missile rack:
    Similar to the above, except that the Prowler does not need to be deployed. Friendly infantry can buy a paintgun and as long as you are within range you can use the paintgun to fire several mortars or missiles carried by the Prowler. You can see in the concept art for the Prowler that there is a possibility for this through a telescopic cargo area attached to the turret. Imagine if the Prowler works a bit like a Katyusha rocket artillery (dakka but with missiles!), firing a lot of small low-damage missiles at an area.
    Good functionality would be to allow the topgunner access to this ability as well, giving the topgunner more options than spot and shoot.

    Barrel fired missile:
    The TR seems to be more about missiles than the other two factions. All the Prowler's shells are actually missiles. When fired normally these missiles function like current shells. But the Prowler can switch to missile-mode. This slows down the velocity of the projectile but also reduces the drop and allows a limited laser-guided steering. This missile function was basically the premise of the Siegebreaker topgun the devs were developing.

    Time-delayed fuse:
    The Prowler can switch the mode of it's ammo while driving. When a target is hit it'll receive a lower amount of direct damage. The rest of the damage and an explosion happen several seconds later. The purpose of this type of ammo is to give the opponent less time to notice how damaged he really is. A target will try to get to cover too late, or will drive back into cover and HE shells might damage nearby infantry you wouldn't have hit otherwise. Note: You equip HE, HEAT or AP, when activating this all that happens is that a portion of the damage is applied later in the hopes to lure the enemy in a false sense of security.

    Bomblet HE shell:
    A variant HE shell the Prowler can switch to on-the-fly. Deals less damage overall, but once it hits a target a few small bomblets are launched horizontally across the room from the impact point before they explode. While overall it'll deal less damage, it has a larger potential to hit large groups of enemies or finish off enemies hiding behind cover.

    Vehicular scandevice:
    A larger version of the Infiltrator's scandart. This version detects both infantry and vehicles in a large radius around it. Similar to the mortars a friendly infantry unit can use a paintgun to launch your scandevice where it's needed.

    Proxyradar mark II:
    The radar functions normally but has the option to launch a scanpulse which spots any enemy infantry or vehicle in range even through stealth. This ability needs to recharge after use. Enemies spotted this way receive a wire-frame visible through terrain if you use a tactical scope.

    Directional radar pulse:
    Fires a radar pulse in a cone, spotting any enemies inside. This is mainly an ability for the topgunner, who currently has little more to do than spot and shoot. Now it can spot through walls! Enemies spotted this way are visible through walls using tactical scopes.

    Infantry Teleportation Module (ITM):
    The TR might be traditional and avoid experimental stuff most of the time, they aren't blind to it and will love to employ some in age-old tactics. The ITM is based of existing teleporters, but proved too difficult to miniaturize to make it portable by infantry. Only larger vehicles like MBT's and Sunderers can carry these. The vehicle deploys two tubes with a large pad beneath it that houses the power generation and allows infantry to teleport between them instantly. The teleporters have limited range let's say 600m) and limited health.

    That a few good idea's for you?
    • Up x 1
  18. Makora

    How is this change a 51% increase in damage? All I am suggesting is that both barrels have a 2.5/3.5 second reload (unmodded) each. This will allow for a faster rater rate of fire but it will be offset with something the VS and NC do not have to deal with in their tanks to this extent; recoil. The highest damage output in the world isn't worth a damn if you can't land the shots. Fiddling this stats like spread and recoil allows for many options of balance that do not revolve entirely around raw damage per shot and reload speeds.

    Truth is. None of this will take. No suggestion from this thread will ever see daylight in any form that would actually affect gameplay unless RPG feels like completely scrapping the current vehicle gameplay loop and building a new one from the bottom up. Vehicles should be less available but conversely more powerful and durable. Infantry players will be less miffed at there being 10 tanks outside a single base and tankers will be less ruffled at the lethal capability of a single infantryman to them.
    There are many points where this can go wrong, yes. Many more things would need to be changed and to be fair we are way past any point of hope for such systemic changes that would shake up the current gameplay loop to give it fresh air.
  19. Demigan

    "51% compared to the Vanguard". Its 28% compared to what it is now, and Barrage does 30% increase so thats what you are getting, a permanent Barrage Prowler. That can improve it even more because it still has Barrage.

    Also the NC Vanguard has the highest recoil of all tanks, and even that is almost non-existant. I posted a video some time ago where I showed the "recoil" of the Prowler, and without changing the crosshair I could hit an NC MAX twice at 100m. To proclaim the recoil is a problem is to grasp at straws. You might miss an infantryman with the second shot because of the recoil if you are unlucky, but a TANK? If you miss that because of the recoil you were just barely on-target anyway and you have bigger problems to worry about.

    We already know what happens if vehicles become more expensive since we had that early in the game's development cycle: the winners of the vehicle battle would have more vehicles and resources than the defenders and an easier time gathering them somewhere (at the attacked base). The defenders would have lost a lot of their resources and start with no vehicles, then have to organize people to get the resources and spawn at the next base. Often this took so long that you would lose one or two bases before you could really gather enough vehicles in one go to rival the attackers and many players would pull when they could, spreading the time these vehicles are active.

    Making vehicles more expensive and powerful would help that person in the tank, but ruin the gameplay for everyone else and you've just increased the pool of "everyone else" since many will have lost their vehicle.

    You are better off making vehicles less resiliant, cheaper and then making tanks swiss-knife weapons. There's room for extra abilities that you can fire with ctrl, C, space, B and G. The topgun can also receive new abilities so you have more to do than spot and shoot. You can also add extra weapon slots like the ESF has, where the driver and/or gunner can switch to extra weapons. This gives more of that tank feel than making tanks effectively immortal murder machines when they engage infantry.
    • Up x 1
  20. That_One_Kane_Guy

    I don't really use vehicles except as a gunner so I admittedly know little where balance is concerned, but I am a sucker for faction diversity, so... Ignorant Wishlist(tm) away!

    Your missile suggestions bring to mind the HIFV concepts the Russians are toying with like the T-15 or the BMP-3T where the primary armament is more centered on fighting light vehicles and infantry with heavy ATGMs for killing tanks. Lore-wise it makes more sense for the TR to deploy something like this than their Abrams/T-14/etc. equivalent considering the initial conflict probably looked more like COIN than open warfare. TR having a mostly conventional vehicle with average performance but good health/APS centered around fighting lighter targets with the potential to swap out the secondary to facilitate different roles (ATGM, AA, Indirect) suits their faction.

    Then balance the other two factions accordingly keeping in mind the respective origins of their hardware, however you want to go about that. This of course requires reworking the vehicle to vehicle balance, vehicle to air balance, vehicle to infantry balance, etc. No big deal, really.
    • Up x 1

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