[Vehicle] Prowler is the weakest tank

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by karlooo, Jul 23, 2019.

  1. TR5L4Y3R


    playing on cobalt, any of the non european servers add too much ping
    same reason i´m not going pts ...
  2. OneShadowWarrior

    Almost all the stuff on TR is pure garbage, except maybe the Vulcan and Max Suits, that’s it......
  3. Demigan

    Interesting, care to prove that?
    • Up x 1
  4. InexoraVC

    Dont play for TR ! :) Play for Vanu - it is well known their weapons have inbuilt autoaim and norecoil features. :)))
  5. Kaizure

    Mmmmmkay. I play all three factions and used to be in charge of the tank battalion for my outfit. Been playing the game pretty much since launch, so let me just go ahead and say: if you use a vehicle sparingly, you don't have enough experience with it to say 'it sucks'.

    First on the topic of the thread itself: the TR Prowler.
    The Prowler might have low health points (3 AP shells to the front will kill it, 2 from the sides and rear), but it has some benefits that a lot of people don't consider:
    1) It's a square tank, so when you turn, drive forwards, go in reverse, find a place to set up, etc. it's always the same experience wherever you go. You never need to concern yourself with proper positioning of your side, front, etc. because the tank is the same in all directions.
    2) The turret (top half of the tank) is a small half circle, meaning it's hard to hit when you're concealed behind cover (rocks, other vehicles, trees, etc.) The top secondary gun doesn't have a hit box, so you hit the turret or you hit nothing.
    3) The Prowler (and the Vanguard) has the benefit of not having its main gun on the body of the tank, which means you can hide behind cover to take shots. The body of the tank is what rockets lock on to, so as long as your body is concealed, you won't have to put up with lock-on rockets or really anything that threatens the health of your tank.

    Now with that being said: the prowler is most certainly not a front lines tank. Your health is on par with that of a Magrider, but I'll get into the Magrider in a bit. As a Prowler, your best chance of dealing the most damage while also staying alive is: keep your distance, and if you have no friendly support and/or your position is compromised, pull back and continue keeping a distance between yourself and your enemies. The prowler's weak armor is made up by the fact that it can unleash a huge amount of firepower (double barrels meaning you can shoot two places at once and/or have a second chance to hit your target + barrage abilities). The other factions might be capable of dealing damage with their tanks, but if you're looking for something that can single handedly turn the ground into a crater, the Prowler is the best for it.

    The NC's Vanguard is the brawler of the MBTs in the game. With the highest health pool (5 AP rounds to the front, 4 AP rounds to the sides, 3 from the rear to kill) and the overshield to make it even MORE of a damage sponge, the Vanguard is the best of the best for getting in, blasting its target and then slowly getting out. The Vanguard is the slowest of the MBTs, and it also has the longest frame. It's thin, meaning it can weave between armor easier, but its long body means that if it's pulling forward to shoot out of cover, you can usually hit it first before it can shoot you. The trick with surviving against a Vanguard is simple: don't let it get close to you. Additionally, like the Prowler, the Vanguard's main gun is attached to the turret on top of the tank... but unlike the Prowler, the Vanguard's top half is big and bulky, making it much easier to hit. Lock-on rockets will still target the body, but you'll have a much easier time hitting a Vanguard's top turret than you will a Prowler.

    And finally we get to the Magrider. While yes it can hover, it has its own drawbacks. First: the Magrider has the same amount of health as a Prowler. Second, the Magrider is the widest of the tanks. You thought a Prowler was wide? Hoo nelly, the Magrider catches on pretty much everything. It's nice that it can hover over friendly tanks, because otherwise it would never be able to drive down the street without literally catching onto everything. And finally: the Magrider's main gun is attached to its body, which means unlike the Prowler and Vanguard, it can't hide behind rocks and fire with its main gun: it either needs to move out from behind the rocks to take a shot, or it needs to rely solely on its top gunner, which still reduces its damage output by half compared to their opponent (assuming the VG/PR has a top gunner). The strafing ability the Magrider has and its ability to climb mountains is its faction-specific ability, much like the VG's is its shield and armor, and the PR is its fast movement speed, agility and rate of fire. Another thing worth noting: since the Magrider can hover, Harassers and other smaller vehicles can literally drive up under the Magrider to shred it with close quarters weaponry. Since the main gun is attached to the body of a magrider, the driver needs to be able to see you to shoot you. If you can keep the main gun away from you, then the driver can't see you, therefore making it very easy to destroy. Your best bet of killing a Magrider is to sneak up on it, because otherwise, as long as it's facing you, it is able to take the most hits because its most heavily armored area (the front) is facing you to engage in combat.

    Most other inexperienced tankers in Prowlers and Vanguards won't think twice about turning their body as well as the top of their tank because all they can think to do is to aim at the target and try to kill them. Remember: your tank's most heavily armored region is the front. The reason Magriders are so effective at killing enemy armor is because they boost to get up behind their opponent, and their opponent usually won't turn their vehicle to ensure they have the most damage resistance. So the Magrider just needs to shoot you 2 - 3 times in the back and boom, you're dead. So you absolutely must start training yourself to remember to turn your tank every time you are engaged with enemy armor to ensure your most heavily armored area is taking the brunt of the damage.



    Next... ESFs. I'm not a pro pilot, but I know them well enough to say:
    Mosquito: Fastest, fairly agile, has precision weapons with large magazines. A bit too sensitive for my liking, as it maneuvers pretty quickly. Thin body makes it difficult for anti air to land a hit.
    Reaver: Slowest, reasonably agile, but very good at maneuvering because of its slow movement. Uses slower firing weapons that hit hard, and also has access to shotgun weaponry because NC. Box-like frame makes it easy for anti air to target.
    Scythe: Average speed, good agility and maneuvering. Uses some precision weapons with small magazines and average firing rate. Has an option to equip a weapon with splash damage, as is the VS' theme what with the Lasher and the PPA. Wide frame makes it easy to target with anti air, but it's also thin if it's facing you, so it depends on the angle you target it.


    And harassers...
    I can honestly say that in my experience with harassers, there are some that have obvious ranged advantages over others, while others have better close quarters weapons than others. It will ultimately come down to practice, but as a tanker, I can tell you which of these weapons I fear the most:
    TR:
    - Vulcan: absolutely terrified of encountering this in the field. No matter what loadout I'm using with my vehicles, if this gets close to me, it can shred me if the gunner is capable and the driver isn't crashing into things. I'm always wary about them, knowing the sound all too well and warning friendlies not to go off by themselves. Two or more vulcan harassers can make quick work of any enemy armored platoon simply by drawing them out and picking them off like a bunch of raptors in the tall grass.
    - Gatekeeper: It has potential, but I'm not really afraid of it. When it first came out, this weapon was ridiculously powerful, but it has since been nerfed pretty badly. It's basically a rapid fire long range grenade launcher, so it's good if you're running with a team that is trying to do ranged attacks, but the damage output is pathetic. If I wanted to take out enemy vehicles at a range by myself, the gatekeeper is not the weapon I would select. It's a very, very situational weapon, so it's kind of pointless to use.
    - Marauder: This got a buff recently where it can finally damage enemy vehicles. In the past it was purely anti infantry, but now it's anti-all. Its damage against armor is still kind of sad, but something is better than nothing. This is the weapon you want to select if you're going to enter an enemy base and just sit on the point, or if you want to go farm a sunderer for easy kills. This weapon, like most TR weapons, has a large magazine size (10 by default), making it last long for you to get more kills with its splash damage. I'm not overly afraid of this because it doesn't get used much, but in the right hands, it can be a menace on the field.

    NC;
    - Enforcer: Moderately afraid. In the right hands, this can be deadly on the field. It's a long range anti-armor weapon that can effectively get rid of infantry, though it requires pretty precise aim to achieve that. Its primary purpose is for dealing with enemy armor at a range, but there are other options that I think are better for dealing with armor over the Enforcer. The only real benefit of using the Enforcer is its projectile speed.
    - Canister: I very, very, very rarely see anybody using this, so I'm not really all that afraid of it. Pretty much exclusively anti infantry, being a mounted shotgun of sorts, but most people simply opt to use the Mjolnir over this.
    - Mjolnir: TERRIFIED of this weapon. This weapon has a magazine size of 40 and it fires 4 grenades per shot, each shot dealing 90 damage per hit. So if all 4 grenades hit you, that's 360 damage. If they hit you with all 40, that's 3600 damage before it needs to reload. Considering the Prowler has 5000 health, that's a heck of a lot of damage against a main battle tank and anything lesser. And since the grenades have splash damage, they're great for wiping out infantry and creating trouble in bases.

    VS:
    - Saron: Definitely my favorite as far as ranged harasser weapons go, and when used against me, I'm definitely afraid of this weapon. By default, this weapon fires six shots and, if you don't go full auto and temper your shots, you can be super accurate and hit every shot. At a range, this weapon is capable of melting enemy sunderers and anything else that's sitting stationary, making it my favorite on-a-budget sunderer killer. It has very little bullet drop and can cause some major trouble... at a range. The trade-off is that its projectiles are slow, and if you're engaged in combat against faster moving vehicles (especially vulcan/mjolnir harassers), you're in for a world of hurt if your gunner isn't very good.
    - PPA: Very afraid of this if its used against me. This weapon is alright against enemy armor, but probably not what I would take as my first choice for dealing with armor. Its primary use is anti-infantry, and much like the Lasher, it uses splash damage to kill targets around corners, inside buildings, etc. This weapon is absolutely obnoxious because you don't even need to see the target to be able to kill it, making it very good at dealing with pesky infantry in bases or stopping engineers from repairing sunderers.
    - VEX: Like the Gatekeeper, this weapon is kinda situational. It has the potential of firing quickly like the Vulcan, but you need to hold the trigger down for longer than the Vulcan to fire quickly, and the accuracy is kinda all over the place with the Vex. I very, very rarely see people ever actually using this. If it's used, I suppose I could say I'm afraid of it if it's used properly... but most VS players will default to something like the Saron for their anti armor needs.


    There are other things I could say about the non-empire specific weaponry, but I feel this post has gone on long enough.

    TL;DR: Each faction has its strengths and weaknesses. To get good at them, you need to practice with them. If you continue to treat vehicles as a means to get from point A to point B, you'll never truly understand what they're capable of and where they excel/struggle.
  6. Kaizure

    A follow-up to my last post... Maxes.
    They're basically tanks with feet, so...

    VS:
    - Special ability allows them to dish out more damage at the cost of also taking more damage. Also increases movement speed, but meh. You're better off using emergency repairs.
    - Layzors. The Nebula is great for room clearing, but not so much for ranged accuracy. The Blue Shift is great for ranged, but it's not a sniper rifle, so don't treat it as such. Low bullet drop, but also low magazine size. Don't go nuts with your trigger finger.
    - Anti-vehicle weapons include the Comet (meh) and the Vortex. Vortex is a charged shot, but can also be rapidly fired for less damage. Fires in a straight line, so basically you just need to line up your shot and fire.
    Overall, the VS max is better used at a range than it is as a close quarters engagement sort of max. But I suppose it's better than trying to rush in against an NC max with an infiltrator.

    NC:
    - Special ability is their shield, which allows them to take a greater amount of damage while also allowing friendlies to follow up behind them for added protection. Not a bad choice, especially if you're working with a squad, but we all know engineers are often unreliable... so emergency repairs never hurts.
    - Mostly shotgun-based weaponry with the scatter shot being the meta among the NC players. I've heard the Gorgon is also a favorite because it's the only machine gun-like max weapon the NC get, and it damages everything, so not a bad idea to get your hands on the Gorgons when you have a chance. Dual scattershots can one-shot any infantry you come across, making the NC 'Scat-Max' a nightmare in close quarters engagements. Most other empire-specific maxes won't stand a chance against an NC max if they have their shotguns trained on you.
    - Anti-vehicle weapons include the Falcon (meh) and the Raven. Falcon is decent enough, but it's basically a dumb fire rocket launcher. The Raven fires at whatever your cursor is hovering over, kind of like how the Phoenix (heavy assault rocket launcher) will go to wherever you aim your mouse at. Raven is stupidly powerful and I'm very much afraid of these things. In the hands of a capable max player, these can absolutely shred enemy armor columns.
    Overall, the NC max excels at close quarters engagements, just like most NC themed vehicles. It's alright at a range, but CQC is definitely where its best suited.

    TR:
    - Special ability is the lockdown ability, which has honestly spoiled me. At max rank, lockdown increases your weapon's projectile speed, fire rate (depending on what you're using) and reload speed, often making it less than a second to reload completely. Burster TR maxes are a nightmare with lockdown because they can reload super fast, fire quickly, their bullets travel fast, etc. TR maxes are masters of dealing with enemy air because they can blast it out of the sky so quickly.
    - Mostly chainguns as its anti-infantry weapons, with the Mercy being its long range weapon and a few others as close quarters weapons. Lots of dakka and, in a combination with Lockdown, can make them great for point holding since they can just fire non-stop. Just make sure your engineer is putting down ammo.
    - Anti-vehicle weapons are the Pounder and the Fracture. The Fracture is for long ranged anti armor, but its projectiles travel slow, so it's pretty meh even with the Lockdown ability. My favorite anti-armor weapon is the Pounder... because with full lockdown, and since they have bullet drop, you can situate yourself somewhere where you can hit enemy sunderers, but infantry can't retaliate against you, allowing you to make short work of their spawn and then beat feet back to the spawn before they C4 you.
    Overall, the TR max is the best for anti-air engagements and some close quarters anti armor. It's decent enough in close quarters because of its lockdown and chainguns, but their chainguns aren't the heaviest damage dealing weapons, so they'll still have a hard time competing with NC Scat-Maxes and putting down sudden room zergs.
  7. Demigan

    Prowler health: 5000
    Vanguard AP damage per shot: 850
    MBT resistance against AP shots: -50% (so it receives 50% more damage).
    Side armor receives another 15% extra damage
    Rear armor receives another 50% extra damage compared to the front.
    3 shots to the front deals 3825 damage. Seems to me that there's still 1175 damage missing there.
    3 shots to the side deals 4207 damage, still not enough to kill a Prowler
    3 shots to the rear deals, finally, 5100 damage and a kill.

    This is in line with my own experience. I wonder if this "veteran" is really as trustworthy as he's making himself out to be. For example he proclaims that the Vanguard is a Brawler tank who's thin frame can "weave between armor easier". Have you ever done any vehicle combat in this game? Any MBT trying to "weave between armor" is a dead MBT, and the Vanguard is the worst off as it has the least chance to actually protect it's rear because it's so slow in maneuvering. You say that the Magrider does the same and that most players don't turn their chassis to meet the Magrider. I don't know what kind of players are on the server you come from but at least on my server we don't play against the local senior citizens. Also how the hell are the healthpools of the Prowler and Magrider "weak armor"?
  8. Johannes Kaiser

    I really appreciate how you go into the details, and in many instances I agree with you, but not in all. The Vulcan being one of the points I absolutely agree with, just as an example.
    The Mjolnir might sound impressive on paper, but if you are more than 50 m away from your target, you better be high as a kite on aiming water enhanced with lucky charms. Otherwise those grenades will land wherever they please, with utter disregard for your wishes.
    Enforcer is iffy. I personally like it more than the Halberd, since it's a bit more forgiving if you miss a shot, but it's still iffy. Can't quite place my finger on it though. Just feels odd. Maybe someone else can elaborate on why that may be. :)
    Magrider can get into places noone else can. Just 2 days ago, we had 2 of them bombarding the Bastion main tower from the nearby mountainside. Depending on how well they are protected by their teammates, this can either make them easy targets (comparatively speaking, mind you) or unstoppable killing machines.
    NC MAX has a hard time getting close, unless they use the shield effectively and have engi backup. And on the way there they are a prime target for any and all people with explosives, rocket launchers and the like. Not saying they can't be used, it's just substantially more difficult. And the last few options for an effective range beyond 5 m has been thrown out the window with the slugs.
  9. Kaizure

    You shouldn't eat the snow on Esamir, lad. It's mostly salt.

    Seriously, why so aggressive? All I'm doing is trying to help explain it so people understand the faction specific strengths. There's no need to get so freaking angry.

    Anyway... to touch upon your points.

    1) When I said weave between armor, I meant friendly armor. Most veteran tankers know how frustrating 'traffic jams' can be, and with how wide Prowlers are (as an example), it's a hell of a lot worse. Vanguards being thin means they can take up less space on the road, so they can get out of jams easier. It's their length that's the problem.
    2) You must have some pretty smart tankers on your server if they're turning their tank with their turret to meet the Magrider. Most casual tankers (the people who treat them as a means to get from point A to point B or as a temporary means to farm) are the people who will only think to turn their turret, but not the tank itself. It makes them easy prey against Magriders.
    3) The health pools on the Prowler and Magrider are weaker compared to the Vanguard, but they're the same for each other. The Vanguard has 6000 health. The shield grants it another 34-67% damage reduction for 8 seconds, so it can survive longer in a close quarters engagement. The Prowler has 5000 health and the Magrider has, brace yourself for this, 5000 health. Front armor on all tanks is always where they're the strongest. Sides have less damage reduction, and the rear has the least damage reduction. IE: Front will take 0% additional damage from incoming fire, sides take 34% increased damage, and rear takes 50% increased damage. That's why I said two AP shots to the rear will take out a Magrider or Prowler and that's why if you want to take out a Maggie, you get the jump on them.

    I haven't bothered to stay up to date with specific percentages, the increase or decrease with specific shell damage, etc. The point is: front is not where you want to engage armor. Sides is nice, rear is best. Get behind the tank and you kill them quicker. If you MUST engage them from the front... Vanguards are the ones you don't want to deal with, Prowlers can die easily if you have a top gunner to assist, and Magriders are the same with the added effect of trying to get under them / not letting them get behind you.

    I'm not interested in continuing a conversation with an angsty teenager throwing a tantrum. If you want to continue this discussion, please meet my input in a civil manner instead of immediately getting hostile. There's literally no need for it.
  10. Kaizure

    By the by, a few notes I failed to make last night. These aren't related to strengths or weaknesses, just... courtesy if you are going to be around armor:

    1) Don't park right next to each other. C4 is an explosion you know, and if you're side to side with armor without any room between the two of you, that C4 can take both of you out. Try to keep at least a harasser's width between you and the other person for best chances of survival.

    2) For the LOVE of GOD... don't park BEHIND a tank that is actively engaged in combat. I understand you want your certs / you're trying to help with your ammo or repair bus... but when a tank needs to retreat for repairs because they're taking too much damage, they're not going to drive towards the threat... they're going to try to back up. And if your sunderer is in the way, they'll either need to do extra maneuvers to get out of the way, or they'll (in all likelihood) die because they weren't expecting you to be in the way. If at all possible, try to park off to the side so you can still provide ammo/repairs, and also not be in the way. It's also super helpful if, when the tank is taking fire, you pull in front of them to 'body block' them so they don't continue taking fire and have a chance to get some repairs done before they start on fire.
  11. Kaizure

    Oh sure, there's definitely other things to consider with these weapons, but I kinda figured people would figure that stuff out for themselves when they actually started using them. It's one thing to read about it and say 'WAW THAT SOUNDS AWESOME' and another to actually use it and say 'Ohhh... so I need to do this, not this."

    1) The Mjolnir deeeefinitely requires very close quarters to be effective, but once it's in that range, it's terrifying. And yeah, with them being four-shot grenade launchers, the accuracy is sporadic at best. Definitely takes some practice to get used to it.

    1.5) (Misread your post) The Enforcer is definitely more forgiving than the Halberd since it doesn't immediately require a reload, and the projectile moves a bit faster / is harder to track than the Halberd shot, but there's something about it that drives me crazy. Whenever I have the option to go with Enforcer or Halberd, I typically choose Halberd.

    2) Magriders definitely have the benefit of being able to access terrain that others cannot, and their slim profile makes them a beach to hit, but they still have their main gun on their body and not the top of their turret, and terrain can be very unfriendly to tankers in the game. They still need to have an angle to get a shot on you, so the ones that are climbing mountains and getting shots are typically the people who have been using a magrider for a very, very long time. An average joe won't be up on the mountain, much less even know the path they need to take to get up there.

    3) And yeah I won't deny the NC max will have trouble getting close without engineer support. Whenever I pull an NC max, there's a voice in the back of my head screaming "BAD IDEA!" Because I almost never get engineer support and get taken out faster than you can say 'LOOK OUT!' Buuuut... when you DO get close, an NC max is a real terror. As soon as you see them looking at you, there's usually a good chance they have scattershots, so.... you're dead now.
    • Up x 1
  12. waystin2

    I find it hilarious that each side thinks their weapons are junk, yet I keep dying to the other sides weapons. Hmmmm....
    • Up x 2
  13. Demigan

    All you are doing is adding to the fairytale team about your subjective experiences, half of which are wrong or based on fantasies that rarely ever happen in the game. You aren't helping, you are making things worse by adding your pile of horsesht to the discussion.

    Now some of your experiences are correct. But that's the point: Just because your subjective experience sometimes is correct does not mean those experiences are representative or even correct. You need proof, data, facts, logic. Not random blurps about how no one turns around when attacked from behind, or how the side-armor is 34% extra damage when I just told you that it's 15% (check that for example: https://planetside.fandom.com/wiki/Vehicle_armor_and_damage_resistance).

    Just actually check in the game how fights progress. Prowlers fight both at range and in CQC because guess what? They are good at CQC. They have the DPS, the speed and maneuverability to make use of it. If anything Vanguards are the least CQC oriented MBT's in the game. The Vanguard have the most to win by staying at range as it reduces the advantage of speed and maneuverability the other two have. But just like the Prowler and Magrider the Vanguard does have it's moments to shine in CQC. Mainly when the battle is in tight confines where maneuvering is limited to begin with.
    Then when you start looking at the actual performance that each tank gets per player who pulls it... Oh boy that Vanguard suddenly doesn't look so good. Despite getting pulled practically the same amount of times per player as the other two MBT's it gets the least infantry kills and it gets the same amount of MBT kills per life as the Magrider, yet it scores less kills on any other vehicle than the Magrider. The Prowler also does better in vehicle kills and infantry kills. The only thing the Vanguard excells at is the sporadic aircraft kill.

    And that is the difference. Me and a few others have actually gone through the data, compared the actual performance of these tanks and found that the Vanguard is the weakest of the bunch. The opposition always jumps on with "less skilled" and "less experienced" but the thing is that all 3 factions are equally skilled with the Lightning weapons. So either the VS and TR magically get more skilled whenever they grab their MBT but lose that skill whenever they touch a Lightning, or the VS and TR MBT's are superior.

    Want to prove me wrong? Use the data available, use the facts, use the logic. Don't use the subjective biased self-reporting experiences. Otherwise you are no better than the people who say "faction X's shotguns/snipers are superior to those of the other team!".
  14. Kaizure

    Fact: Aggression turns you into an idiot.
    Logic: Don't try to reason with idiots.

    As I said, I won't be continuing this conversation if you continue to come at me... and here you are. You are far too aggressive and frankly, you've misread my post once before and attacked me for it, so I see little point in trying to explain it to you when there's a very good chance you'll do it again.

    Didn't read half your post because it became clear very fast you were still angry. So... yeah, I'm done with you.
  15. Demigan

    The list of "insults" so far:
    Demigan: Called into question your veterancy based on your erroneous experiences, many of which could be verified in minutes. Called your experiences a pile of horsesht because of the amount of mistakes in there.

    Kaizure: Says I eat snow/salt. Calls me agressive, angry, an angsty teenager on a tantrum (instantly followed by telling me to be civil and not hostile), an idiot, an angry idiot and several times again that I'm angry and agressive.

    As far as I can tell you are the one with anger management issue's. I've based my 2 "insults" on the fact that you are wrong even on points that can easily be checked while you've based your plethora of insults based on that you disagree with me. You are a hypocrite.

    Also how did I "misread" your post? You fail to even show anyone how I am supposed to have done that. You come in a thread that already has had the discussion about subjectivity versus objectivity&data and then pile on some more subjective experiences.
  16. Johannes Kaiser

    Folks, you are the perfect example of a Spock vs Bones argument.
    Both have their place: what players experience or feel is what keeps them playing or has them leaving, but changes to things they feel are out of line must be measured against the corresponding data in order to not make big mistakes.
  17. pnkdth

    Even with the (somewhat limited) data we have things are interpreted differently.

    For example, NS vehicle performance and the skill argument. I see it as much simpler equation and that's 2 is better than 1. You do not need to account for skill or teamwork. VS, as a faction, has been very pragmatic in their choices of weapons, e.g. the Orion was overwhelmingly popular since every other choice was "objectively" worse. Higby even tweeted that "VS only use OP toys" as a reference to just prevalent this behaviour was. This got even worse since TR/NC all assumed the Orion was OP because "they were dying to it all the time" whilst ignoring the massive numbers using the weapon and that the VS meta was "HA or ****." VS (emerald in particular) have also aggressively used competitive tactics on Live (Battle buses en masse, abused the hell out of the construction system to gain easy VPs when those where a thing, etc etc).

    So why wouldn't VS players keep using their MBT 2/2 more than any other faction when we know for a fact it gets that much better when the secondary gun is manned? We do not need to factor in teamwork or anything like that, the tank is simply that much better when it is 2/2 than it is 1/2.

    This does not mean the Vanguard is in a good place though. Similarly, if the Magrider is "objectively" superior. For if numbers and data is all that matters then the NC MAX nerf was justified because in black and white terms it was outclassing the other MAX units. According to just the data it was better and since player experience should never be taken into account we can safely dismiss everyone who claimed the NC MAX lacked range and/or it was a problem for the NC. It is actually remarkable how similarly NC and VS players have argued for their MAX and MBT yet how little empathy is shown for their respective position.

    However, there are cases like the BattleGoose where you just gotta admit that, yupp, this weapon is obscene. It might be an Orion without a grip/laser but clearly that is not enough of a trade-off for how the heat mechanics synergies with the weapon. My suggestion would be 1) reduce the magazine down to 35 2) from 750RPM to 698 3) increase FSR and introduce a side to side shake. Obviously not all of these at once but the weapons (even directive ones) are should be sidegrades, not become the go-to choice.
    • Up x 1
  18. Demigan

    https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...79,80&startDate=2016-07-07&endDate=2020-03-20

    If the Orion is so overwhelmingly popular why is it used almost as much as the other two starter-LMG's on a day-to-day basis?

    And if the VS is so very pragmatic and using more 2/2 MBT's if they don't do it in NS vehicles like the Sunderer or a Harasser with ES weapons? They only use more gunners for the ES weapons and platforms. How can their skill and teamwork be exclusive to the ES weaponry?

    And the Prowler and Vanguard have also tons to gain from being 2/2 MBT's. Yet we see that attracting gunners is based on how effective that gun is. A Halberd on the Prowler see's less use than on the Vanguard because the Prowler is more likely to get the kills due to it's high DPS.

    Example:
    https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...,4008&startDate=2016-07-07&endDate=2020-03-20

    And because hopefully someone is smart enough to actually check those graphs and see what's wrong the next graph should help give a better view of what's happening:
    https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...02899&startDate=2016-07-07&endDate=2020-03-20
  19. Johannes Kaiser

    I don't play VS a lot (like, almost not at all, after all those years, my spandex boy is still BR 21), but even from that extremely limited experience I can testify that gunning for a MR is more fun than for a Vanguard; for me personally it's related to the movement patterns and the knowledge your driver can hop in and out of cover as he well damn pleases (which makes it more durable even in the hands of an inexperienced driver), which can not be replicated on NS vehicles. And that's a thing that can't be measured. Add to that the extremely convenient gun array, as you pointed out, and there is a vehicle people are looking for empty seats in. I'd never jump into a random VG unless it's really opportune (both alone on the road and it's the only motorised option to get to the next base), but during my VS playtime I found myself constantly lookign for empty MG gunner seats.
  20. pnkdth


    In the last section I said it has been replaced with the BattleGoose and that the Goose is a problem.

    I used past tense, was, and was referring to a type of behaviour we have seen among VS. If I recall correctly you are a Millerite which means you've probably encountered DIG and DIGT. They too made extensive use of pop dunking with Gals and went all in on the redeploy meta. They won VS tons of alerts (even if I like to think the tactiCool outfit I was a part of did their part too).

    In the part you quoted I also laid out that I did not presume it be either skill or superior teamwork but it being more practical to gun the Magrider 2/2. Now you can assume the reasons for this (fun, powerful, or whatever) but the fact of the matter is we have data which shows us VS prefer to run in 2/2. Furthermore, there is no reason to assume a behaviour will copy itself to other areas just because they appear similar. We do not see NC infantry running around with only shotguns, for instance, just because they have a shotgun MAX yet pre-nerf it was out-performing the other faction's MAX units handily.

    Which brings me back to how differently data is being interpreted depending on different perspectives. I do not see any issue with overhauling the MBTs to make the secondaries of other vehicles more enticing/fun/effective. It is, however, also worth taking into account if all factions all three factions have 100 players yet two of those factions decide to spread out using more tanks then they will compete over fewer targets while offering up more in return. Also, having two players repairing one tank increases longevity dramatically. So there is that to consider as well. Much like how an infantry player has a lot better chances with a medic is there to heal him up/revive.

    You have to look each faction use their vehicles. Especially when we're talking unique vehicles. So 2 is better than 1 but we also need to look at why other factions think 1 is better than 2.
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