[Suggestion] Performance of the Aphelion - Gatekeeper - Mjolnir

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by 3punkt14159, Nov 27, 2015.

  1. Pikachu

    Halberd = NS long range AV
  2. Jubikus

    A simple method to compare them would be their combined KPU,AKPU, and VKPU to get a kind of overall effectiveness KPU.
    Vulcan-4.75-----Vulcan-H-7.91-----Gatekeeper-6.77-----Gatekeeper-H-9.53
    Aphelion-5.96--Aphelion-H-7.89---Saron-7.43-------------Saron-H-7.85
    Mjolnir-3.87------Mjolnir-H-7.31-----Enforcer-7.19----------Enforcer-H-8.89





    http://ps2oraclestats.com/monthlystats/
  3. zaspacer

    If NC/VS players had cared about addressing TR's lack of range AV, Gatekeeper wouldn't be as big an issue as it is.

    If they don't nerf Gatekeeper, then it's going to keep making the game unfun for a lot of NC/VS people. If they do nerf Gatekeeper, it's going to put TR in the hole (again) of not having on par range AV.

    It's bad balance all around, but instead of players helping Devs sort it out (cause the Devs are pretty incompetent at this on their own), the players instead lobby to get their demographic group to have the most advantages.

    So we get this culture of each group celebrating when someone else gets screwed. Then crying when it happens to them.
    • Up x 2
  4. Vaphell

    would somebody explain to me what's wrong with TR range? Was prowler somehow lacking with halberds and ****? Don't TR have lockons and AV manas?
    Because when it comes to the only situation where long range truly matters, ie pushes across empty space it the NC is the bottom of the barrel. They get outsniped from outside their effective range by deploprowlers (as evidenced by pretty much any S->N attack on TR owned Indar Ex) and strafing magriders that could use only saron and slowly wear down "mighty" but ultimately powerless vanguards. There are no ravens and no 290m ESRLs in the middle of the desert.
  5. zaspacer

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/3dbf4c/buff_tr_long_range_infantry_av/

    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps...he-trs-lack-of-infantry-long-range-av.209057/

    There other posts too, just search in Google.

    As one of the posters wrote, "the imbalance between what you can do with (pre-Gatekeeper)... TR stuff tends to create situations and strategies that really can work only when facing the republic."

    If the Gatekeeper is making people hate the game, then I think it has to go. But removing it will return TR to it's state of big gaps in its basic strategy options. Looking at the different meta of Server Smash, we can also see a preference for NC then VS then TR:
    http://planetsidebattles.org/matches/

    In the past 12 Server Smash Matches
    ===========================
    NC selected 12 times
    VS selected 8 times
    TR selected 4 times

    Now I know Server Smash meta is different from Standard Game meta, but this highlights DBG is not addressing other major strategy imbalances between Factions in the game. Where one Faction just can't deliver on one or more core gameplay aspects. Too many people lobby for buffing their own side/unit, and not enough time lobbying for an improved and more balanced overall game.
  6. stalkish

    Im a bit confused.
    You say gatekeeper is propping up TR lang ranged AV, when asked why TR long ranged AV is weak since its always had the prowler main cannons, lockdown, and the halberd, you cite 2 threads both of which refer to infantry AV.
    Correct me if im wrong but isnt the GK a vehicle based weapon?
    Isnt this a discussion about vehicle based AV and the interactions between vehicles?

    I fail to see the correlation between TR not having any infantry based long range AV and the Gatekeeper.
  7. Vaphell

    Just checking - is the SS meta all about peasants, maxes and air?

    Well yeah, different modes are different and it's kinda hard to balance things out when 1/3 of the available weaponry is ignored right off the bat.

    Like I said the NC can't deliver when it comes to pushes across open spaces and it's just luck that it doesn't matter in SS because ground mech is simply a waste of resources in that format. MAXes indoors and airhammers in the sky are all that's needed. TR indeed are left in the cold, given that harassers and prowlers are their strong point, yet it's nullified in the hypercompetitive environment by the undisputed superiority of similarly priced air units.
    Does GK change anything in the SS context?
    • Up x 1
  8. zaspacer

    I don't use MBTs or Harassers and I rarely play non-TR these days. I also don't do hardcore organized play. So my personal experience is limited in those regards. Hopefully someone with greater insight in those areas can comment.

    I know TR was struggling with long range AV before. I was there and dancing between my Striker and AV Mana turret trying to do range AV (and I've spent a lot of time doing range AV duty, including w/ ESF). I also saw lots of posts on the issue. But since Gatekeeper, TR seems to have a much easier time of it. The enemies just can't zerg their Vehicles and leave them in line-of-sight like they used to.

    If Prowler main cannon, lockdown, and Halberd were so effective, why are people complaining about Gatekeeper? Is it the Gatekeeper AI? If the Gatekeeper AI was nerfed, would that make the rest of Gatekeeper ok? Let me know your thoughts on that.

    I assure you I don't really have a horse I care about in this race. Other than I'd like to see the game balanced and fun. I've already said that if Gatekeeper is horribly unfun to play against, then I think it has to go/change. But I'm also noting that before Gatekeeper, TR noticeably on the battlefield and in forum post spam was having a hard time keeping up with other Factions in its Range AV.

    On a side note, I actually hate fighting alongside the glow of the Gatekeeper red pulse strobe (it mimics the visual effect when I take damage, which creates a miscue), and would love to see that gone.
  9. Jubikus

    Its pretty simple you miss elephant in the room Prowlers with Halberds were the ONLY option before. In case you werent aware the prowler is an MBT and therefor limited in where you can pull it on continents like Esamir where theres only 1 tech plant your only able to pull one from the warpgate most of the time. Harassers can be pulled from any base this is where the gatekeeper has helped us in any situation where we need long range AV even tho its still more inconvenient that just swapping to a max and being good to go we can now just go to the next base back and pull a GK harasser and prop it somewhere with a vantage point and fire away.
    • Up x 1
  10. sustainedfire

    All of the respective close and ranged ES weapons perform comparably.

    Welcome to a more balanced asymmetric balance.

    Not fun having to fight against a ranged opponent who can retaliate?
  11. Jubikus

    Nc can deliver just as well as VS can only TR tanks excel in huge open spaces like northern indar however both Vortex and Raven maxes can be used to push theres plenty of rocks for cover that dont necessarily work for big fat tanks like a Vanguard but work just fine for maxes. Unless the battle is massive and they have more tanks than you have maxes you should be fine in most battles while things in northern indar might still be tough this is only half of 1 continent. People wouldnt have so much of an issue if indar wasnt the most popular continent because a prowler on something like Hossin is extremely weak but thats not the case people like to fight in the place where our tank has the biggest advantage.
  12. zaspacer

    I am by no means a SS expert. I have never even played in one.

    I do keep an eye on the results from them, read forums posts on them, and have talked to some people who participate in them. So I will try to answer from the limited knowledge I have. If someone who knows SS better wants to their thoughts, that would be great.

    Yes, SS is mostly Infantry (mostly HA), Air (mostly ESF and Gal), and Sunderers. And I did try to state that I recognize SS is a different meta than the Standard game (though there is some overlap between SS and the hardcore organized game in the Standard Game). I only listed it to showcase another ongoing Faction imbalance that is continuing to not be addressed by the Devs, NOT to somehow show NC as being OP in Standard Game.

    I don't know how Gatekeeper factors into SS. I don't see any of the new Weapons listed in he recent Matches, so I don't know if they were even available:
    http://planetsidebattles.org/match/57

    I definitely agree they should buff NC across open spaces if they're not holding up vs. the other Factions. I am fine with asymetrical Faction gameplay, but not when it means missing a major cornerstone of strategy that can become the dominant factor in certain engagments or who regions.
  13. Vaphell

    I have lost the faith in game devs in general a long time ago. Time and time again they have proven they don't understand the games they create and if something works, it's by accident and they cannot recreate the winning formula even if their life depended on it - cue PS1 vs PS2 or blizzard setting the RTS gold standard with SC: Broodwar and not getting close to it ever since.

    My point was SS doesn't exactly tell us anything relevant about the game as showcased by the NC being pushovers in open space battles, yet faring quite well in SS situations that happen to align with their strengths more and never expose the drawbacks.
    The game could be perfectly balanced in the sunday peasant play on live servers (in fact the TR are on the roll recently) and still show brutal disparity when minmaxed hardcore. SS leaves 1/3 - 1/2 of the game off the table so balance in 2 strikingly distinct play modes might be even impossible to achieve.
    • Up x 1
  14. zaspacer

    Games and Entertainment in general have suffered from a cycle that is warped by the pressures of being successful, and having a backlog of peer products to be comparable to (and judged against). And the safeguard to any company's or individual's accountability for failure, is the safe harbor of derivative/consensus. More than that, derivative/consensus becomes the accepted (and truly believed standard of) "wisdom", and deviating from it gets you scoffed at or dismissed as "not getting it".

    Companies don't want to risk big budgets on unproven ventures or ventures they can't conceptualize. The masses latch on to popular patterns of fashion and pat themselves on the back for being in the know. Derivative work is heralded as "getting it", and Derivative Creators are allowed to steer the ship, and those Creators conduct witch hunts to purge true Innovative though from their ranks.

    And as the cycle chugs along, the focus is on being Derivative and not actually understanding (or keeping records of) why those Standards were used in the first place. So after a few cycles, you have people copying form, without actually knowing where the core synergy or function ever was. Promote those people into the ranks of the Creators, and you have the blind leading the blind.

    The ranks of Creators are corrupted by fashion police. They propagate the shallowest traits of the derivative. They are blind to true lessons of the past or to paradigm subverting innovation. They purge the ranks of Creators of innovators. And they make worse stuff.

    Agreed. One cannot simply study or point to one system to then reach some comprehensive awareness or conclusive full picture statement of the other.

    I think I could do it.

    I'd start by making the 2 more closely aligned to each other in gameplay. This involves:
    1) improving the communication tools of the non-organized/non-outfit
    2) removing the artificial advantage perk tools of the organized/outfit (they'll still have the advantage of working together... unless the non-squads start work together too, then there's no advantage)

    If everyone isn't playing the same game, using (or having access to) the same powerful resources, then you can't have the same meta.

    I'd not only align Standard Game and Server Smash meta, I'd also return the game to combined arms and more use of terrain and the map. This involves:
    1) nerfing Vehicle Spawn In, Gal Drops, Spawn Beacons, and other fast Infantry Transit
    2) making sure all Factions had both comparable (but ES style different) and multiple forms of Threats/Counters for each engagement type (like long range AV, open space battles, CQC, etc.)
    3) nerfing HA in CQC-Midrange Combat (or buffing the other classes); expanding Infantry Range AV to other Classes
    4) nerfing Revive (so as Cap the number per Spawn); nerf Med and Restoration Kits (so that effect is capped and cannot be spammed)
    5) add perma Air radar such that any Air moving into non-contested enemy territory will show up on all those enemies' Big and Mini-Maps
    6) bring back selectable Instant Action (can choose from 3 biggest Faction battles on any Continent), can't steer pod, pod drops outside (and along the edge of) a circle larger than the circle for no-deploy-zone, and on the side of the circle that is adjacent to their territory (or, if they are cut-off, it will drop anywhere around the perimeter of that circle). Any Instant Action can drop on any Ally Faction Beacon as well, those Beacons can only be placed outside that no-drop-pod zone.
    7) all new players will have enough Certs to Loadout one Class or Vehicle fully in one area (one maxed out choice in each Loadout section)
    8) Any player can be inspected to see what their Class/Vehicle Loadout is
    9) Players can use Certs for Bounties (different kind)
    10) Add Black Ops 4th Faction Merc option to play in Underpop Factions (only being rewarded for kills at Underpop battles)
    11) MBTs can be don't need control of Tech Plant to be spawned
    12) all bases on Big Map clearly show what units can spawn there; all maps have legend which shows what each symbol/icon means)
    13) all Ally spawned Sunderers have a specific "Deployed" Icon so players can see which Sunderers in the area are the ones Deployed.
    14) Light Assualt gets an Air/Termial-Only Repair Tool and one other Tool Option (other one for Infantry LA's). Explore getting other Classes to become good choices as Vehicle users.

    +more
  15. zaspacer

    1) For Revive, I might instead have a cool down on getting Revived multiple times on the actual target getting Revived.
    2) I'd look at getting rid of non-Snipe Headshots
    3) I'd have any player able to look at the graphics settings of others players

    + more
  16. Orakel

    You seriously talking about puting TR in the hole again lol ? I remember when old PPA got nerfed whole TR&NC was crying about this weapon and its t o t a l l y useless weapon now ..so tell me why a faction need a weapon which shot from high range with very high accuracy @ 1 point w/o any loss ?
  17. zaspacer

    Yup. (and I mostly play TR these days)

    The OP Magrider PPA was a massive disaster for PS2 while it existed in the game. It's removal at the cost of becoming unplayable was unfortunate, but needed, and took far longer than it should have to happen... just like what happened with so many other disastrous OP things.

    Are you talking about Lancer? Or any of the massive list of VS "no drop" weapons?
  18. Alexkruchev


    Good point.

    Gatekeeper: 500m/s projectile speed

    Enforcer/Saron: Less than 300.

    Saron: No drop.

    Gatekeeper: No drop.

    Enforcer: Major drop.

    All have very similar times to kill. Saron loses out on sustained DPS to other two, but has more alpha when spammed so it gets versatility in CQC use.

    Enforcer is the least effective, as it's strong drop and horrible speed make it borderline useless against moving armored targets at any kind of range. It takes serious compensation (2-3 vehicle lengths) to hit a target at 50m going at about 35km/h at 90 degree angle to you.

    Gatekeeper isn't actually OP. It's not- the problem is that both other ESAV weapons are -underperforming- their intended long range roles.

    If we were to buff the MV of both other weapons to the same level as the Gatekeeper, and equalize their drop (And buff Saron's reload a bit to put it more on par with the Gatekeeper or Enforcer), then these weapons would be fine.
  19. Gundem


    Also, GK can get extended magazines, which is a massive advantage. I think the Saron could be a great long range cannon by giving it lower damage and RoF, but an 8 round mag with higher velocity, lower drop off and better CoF. Sort of like a fusion of the Enforcer and GK, good in a pinch for burst but still leaves the Aphelion the clear winner.
  20. iller

    I got a question about this Gatekeep thing....

    Is it supposed to kill my ESF 5 seconds after I've gotten their attention while I'm doing barrel rolls & Afterburning directly overhead and straight up from the TR Harrasser? ....b/c that's happened. They've shot me right out of the air at almost direct upwards angles like it was a Walker. ...atleast against Vulcans, I could come around for a second pass before they'd melt me out of the sky.