Pain Spire Idea

Discussion in 'Planetside 2 Test Server: Discussion' started by Smoo, Mar 30, 2018.

  1. Smoo

    Increase pain field damage and resilience by how many people it's damaging.
    • So for a few people, it acts normally.
    • For a massive rush of people dumped on it, the Pain Spire goes nuts and shreds them all, very quickly.
    Why? Because dunking bases isn't a fight. People claim to want fights, then proceed to just dump people onto them to end them as fast as possible.
    This simply forces people to stand off when they're killing a base, or enter a few at a time. Those fights (emphasis on fight) would go normally.
    But multiple galaxies full of AV dumped into a base would be much less effective. Or would have to drop NEAR the base, giving defense a larger chance.
  2. Sgt Mcguilicuddy

  3. LordKrelas

    There's not much of a "Fight" when engaging a lifeless entirely automated defense grid, that is self-repairing.
    There's a reason they drop a 48 onto it, just to kill the base quickly.

    If that was blocked off entirely by an automated-weapon, rendering numeric advantage & rapid assault with it void..
    What is left? A Slog at the exterior, so the 3-man group, can get inside, and enjoy farm while everyone else has to grind walls for 0 EXP.

    IE you make the grind worse, while allowing it to be even easier to mulch any reason to want to not end it quickly.
    Another automation that kills fast, without even having a defender.
  4. Smoo

    False.

    In order to defend the base, AND in order to get a fight, you need people.

    If the action is over before defenders show up, there is no fight.

    If 3 people show up to defend the base, AV kills turrets, a few LA jump over the walls and kill the defenders, kill spawns, and then spire. Then smash the important bits, and done.


    What this DOES, is make it take LONGER. So that instead of 3 people showing up in a short period of time, MORE people show up when the base gets hit. And if the base doesn't die instantly, you get a fight.

    It does mean that the attackers might need to actually bring more than a Galaxy or two full of people. Hack out a Sunderer nearby, or a small base with a spawn tube an a router, and a cloaker to place it. All things that can be noticed, and draw a response, and a fight.
  5. LordKrelas

    So the pain-spire that ramps up in damage in accordance to the number of enemies... which makes it kill faster...
    Which makes the Fight end before the Defenders get there..
    The Platoons jumping onto Bases, are not intending to let there be a fight.
    Neither are the Base Defenders, with their automated Turrets.

    You want assaults to take enough time for Defenders can spawn in across the map, so the already one-sided fight slants hard to the defense?
    There's a reason they drop a platoon in the damn center.
    Same reason, the Builders build the base in a Hell hole.

    Not to mention, why in hell should a PMB, with no one in it, by itself be able to delay an entire galaxy or two by itself using the fastest methods they can?
    That squad of Maxes is out-spending hard, for a single drop.. You want to delay several thousand Nanites, so defense of a PMB, lasts long enough that the absent defenders can rally onto it?
    Seriously?

    A PMB fight on the attackers' side is not enjoyable - and the PMB is built to make it hell, and reduce any risk as much as possible.

    Those attacking with entire squad drops from Galaxies, with Maxes, have the same logic as the builders:
    Make as it brutal, and quick as possible, to remove any fight, risk or similar.

    An automated unavoidable defense should not be able to by itself, massacre groups of people due to there being groups of people.
    There is a bloody alert module.
    If your PMB builders, are wanting to have time to respond to their twins on the offense-side... they're gonna need to be actively working.
    Not relying on an automated Defense to hold off entire platoons by itself.
  6. Smoo

    If a MAX-drop does it's job properly, the base is mostly destroyed before anyone can even redeploy to it.

    The pain spire idea doesn't stop the assault, it forces a new tactic: instead of a bum-rush, they have to stand off and kill the turrets and spire with AV. THEN they can move in and demolish the base. This takes more time, and in that time, people can actually show up to defend.

    If those MAXes all set up nearby, with AV, they can do largely the same thing- nail the turrets, then kill a repair module or two, and march into the base.

    A single dumb module or set of turrets is NEVER going to be able to hold off a determined assault indefinitely, as you seem to be asserting. Heck, a single cloaker with an explosive crossbow and ammo printer can technically take down a base solo, given enough time.


    THIS kind of thing, can actually develop into a fight. Just dunking bases one after the other with no possible defense, though? That's not challenging for anyone.
  7. LordKrelas

    That's why they drop a full Galaxy of maxes.
    If dropping 11 Max units onto the Core of a unmanned PMB, is able to be killed or anything less near instantly killed by an Automated Unavoidable Pain-field... That PMB counters Numbers, when it required a numeric advantage to beat the defenders..

    You want people to be forced to attack walls, when paying over 3K in nanites is rendered effective by a single Painspire.
    Any allies in said Base, then have the easiest bloody Job given not a single thing that destroy or engage the base, before they can Respawn across the entire map back into it.. let alone if with Aircraft.

    A single set: No. But have you seen properly made squad-bases?
    The ones made in hell holes, using everything at their disposl, including lighting the damn ground on fire basically with a Skyshield.

    A single cloaker: Modules inside buildings, LOS with turrets, Spitfires, land-mines, using the Alert Module, being properly ready to mobilize when your PMB away from anything useful gets attacked.

    I certainly don't call attacking automated walls, turrets, and building for piss-poor EXP, a fight, let alone when the AFK build team finally gets in, gaining better EXP on top of the cort EXP, in a superior defensive position.
    Which is why, when a Platoon goes after a PMB, it's not for Fun, it's business: IE Results only.
    Which is what the Builders design the base after: Results. Not how much fun it is for the attackers, or defenders.
  8. Smoo

    Actually, taking out the base could be easier, as well as more balanced.

    Attackers would take down AV towers (or just AI modules), roll up in a siege ANT, and rip in through the side of the base. That requires LESS nanites than a max crash, and has less chance of being shot down halfway.

    It's just not superfast.


    Why are you defending fights that are totally imbalanced and not fun?

    It's like... if people could pay 5000 nanites between them to set a cap timer to 30 seconds instead of 5 minutes. The base flips before the defenders can get any numbers rolling. No real fight, just steamroll in, pay nanites, move on? It wouldn't work for lattice fights, why should it be viable for PMB fights?
  9. LordKrelas

    If it was easier to do it from the Outside, we wouldn't be having this conversation about Air-dropped Maxes.

    There's two sides to a PMB battle:
    Defenders
    The battle at a PMB is a roll over impossible defense, where the sheer numbers finally manage it, or the base is empty, poorly designed.

    Or the attack is so quick & severe, even manned, the Base is dead before anything can be.

    The Base is attacked by aircraft\MBT\Infantry\Maxes, that kill everything without a ****, and spawn-camp the defenders into their spawn tubes.

    Attackers
    It's a EXP-less grind, against barely a squad, mostly automated turrets that self-repair, that has equal firepower to the attacking force, from vehicles to aircraft, to infantry added onto their automated base defense systems.

    It's a Base guarded by a Squad, inside this fortress in a hell hole, with half the modules inside buildings fused with the terrain, with no actual entry into it, so the Building can't be destroyed even for the BS low amount of EXP

    The base is sealed, self-repairing, positioned where the ground itself lights your *** on fire, and everything is automated, self-repairing, while the Guys inside are even repairing everything - let alone if they brought vehicles.



    Everything about PMB's is one-sided.
    It's either the Defenders or the Attackers, as the bases are player-constructed in player-chosen locations, with the goal of discouraging attackers.
    While attackers have to discourage any fight from the defenders, to actually gain any results.


    But are gaining double EXP basically on every kill they make, while you get nearly 0 EXP for hours.


    Making automated Defenses have their unavoidable damage dealt by a machine, increase automatically according to the number of Enemies nearby..
    Will make any numeric advantage, which is required against PMBs properly built \ guarded, punished by an automated defense that will Kill faster..
    And since it works through walls, this just means more AI vs Player in a one-sided confrontation that gives EXP for the absent Builder, for not even being there.


    We are talking about a entire squad to platoon mobilizing, and dropping expensive Maxes to kill a base, made entirely out of freely generated rock harvested in the Millions, being able to exterminate any large group with unavoidable Area-damage that scales up to Numbers..
    In a place, where the numeric advantage is required by Attackers, against actually defended & well-built PMB's.
    And easily exploited, such as the Repair modules inside a building with no bloody entry...

    But now with Pain fields, only seen in spawn-rooms, guarding bases from groups..

    If your Automated defense can handle the heaviest possible force into nothing since they were a group, You basically just said "**** teamwork" when attacking PMB's.

    Lattice fights have no automations, no sky-shields, and the only damage that can't be avoided is around a spawnroom, and it doesn't even scale up.
    PMB's pick their location, have all these perks, and vastly better off than Lattice bases
    And you want this automated defense to become more lethal, the more people near it, to counter large groups..
    When the PMB itself, easily requires large groups to engage, let alone while defended..
    While PMBs provided the most one-sided engagements possible, without even players being involved on one-side.
    And the most glitch-happy places in this game: are PMB's

    No PMB should be immune to a zerg just since it's a PMB.
    A dedicated group attacks your empty PMB:
    I'm sorry, is it meant to be impossible to take, until additional reinforcements come in for the PMB, just since it's a PMB?
    You want it to better defended? How about building where it matters..
    How about making allies want to guard it..
    How about not expecting a Bot to magically delay ALL possible enemy activity until you arrive..
  10. Smoo

    That is largely hyperbole.

    Cortium is as expensive as nanites: free, over time.

    Sky shields are getting EMP effect, correct?

    Every base item is worth XP to kill.

    People will still probably ignore defending most bases that aren't theirs.

    Cortium IS limited. After a few blown-up ANTs, and a lot of harvesting, the immediate area starts to get pretty dry. Replacing turrets against sustained AV fire is also really hard.

    How a base fight COULD go:
    Bash turrets- engy turrets, manned PMB turrets, tanks, rocket launchers, etc.
    Send in skirmishers over the walls.
    Move up siege ANTs and tear walls down.
    Remove pain fields.
    Remote spawns.
    Remove modules.
    Remove HIVE or OS or whatever.

    Base dead.


    No, it's not instant, it requires effort, rather than throwing nanites at the problem. And if people defend, the turrets are STILL down, since a building turret is inactive and pretty fragile to boot.

    You'd have interior defenders vs incoming siege ANTs, and then whatever mortars can be set up. If the attackers DESERVE to take down the base, they'll also blockade ANTs from resupplying.
  11. LordKrelas

    Cort you can bank millions of it, as you can collect it as fast as you can spend it.
    Cort you find in thousands at a time.
    Nanites is a strict count, that is time-based solely: You can not find, or harvest even 5 of it.

    That EXP for killing a construct is very little compared, to the EXP gained making it, via cort mining.
    Let alone the ease of it killing anything, without the operator.
    While the one killing the construct: Has to do everything themselves.

    Cort is everywhere.
    Add in additional Ants, each able to store tons of it, over time, with Severely more supply, more storage, and you can replace entire bases cheaply.
    In the 5 minutes to hour, you made more EXP mining, than they did: And that base can be rebuilt several times over before depletion of the Ants even.

    Now, lets look at the Ant:
    That is a Armored vehicle that needs AV weapons to scratch
    Capable of either: Cloaking, Full Shield, Boosters
    Is able to be armed.
    Is an all-terrain speedy little bastard.
    It can ram Lightning tanks to death, without even a Boost.

    Now catch the Cloakable armored Ant, before it resupplies a base, that has several million Cort in it...
    If you're depleting that, during a Defense.. That defense is taking a long *** time.
    Not to mention, one single Ant can unload enough cort to feed or create a bloody base by itself..

    As well, There's a reason Sky-Shields are getting EMP effects
    The damn things were being used as perfect seals, and nuking infantry around bases, via the bloody ground itself even.
    This of course was ironically Bypassed by an air vehicle passing through the shield (Why enemy air can, is a good question), and unloading the infantry under the shield.

    The reason Allies don't defend PMB's, is simple:
    1) They are usually so far from any useful purpose to the lattice fights
    2) They have no organic motive to care about said PMB

    To correct this, just make PMB's focused around aiding allies with boons (not stripping normal gameplay, until PMB's are required to bloody play) that support their local allies in the area..
    Make sure this gives EXP to the Builders for providing the supporting effect, and now those allies enjoying the Perks..
    Will defend this PMB, that is helping their fights, and the PMB builders gain a motive to build them Near tactical locations..

    Idiots that don't defend the PMB in the local area, lose their perks by the loss of the PMB.
    Squads & organized Groups would defend them, as it gives tactical advantages to their fights in the nearby hexes.
    And since these PMB's in order to profit, have the best places outside of hell holes..
    Attacking them is also enjoyable.

    And with that purpose in mind, you can more effectively adjust PMB's for defense & offense capabilities.
    As now they are a part of defending & attacking on the lattice - and highest profit is near the lattice then.
    Not required, but bloody tactical by the nature: organically given value, without forcing it.

    And magically PMB's have a two-sided motive, for the builders, allies, and the enemy.
  12. Smoo

    Now, you're just making a fool of yourself with hyperbole. There are not "millions" of Cortium.

    A silo holds 50,000 Cortium.

    A base ant holds 8000 Cortium.

    A fully upgraded ANT holds 10,000 Cortium. (1900 Certs)


    You're not wrong about bases needing a point in normal gameplay, though. But bases still need to not be quickly killable- a base that an enemy can rapidly remove without engaging is pretty useless. A smart attacker will hit a base while the fight is somewhere else, and remove it BEFORE the fight moves to the base and defenders show up.
  13. LordKrelas

    That's a lot of cort, and the map constantly generates it.
    Buildings aren't exactly costing 5 thousand of it either, nor to run. Cort lasts bloody ages.

    But were talking 3 thousand nanites to achieve that instant BS kill -- which can't be collected easily unlike the Cort.
    Which also during collection, provides EXP on harvest, and EXP on delivery.


    That's the golden point:
    With PMB's have organic value, and their entire profit being at strategic locations for gameplay..
    Not only are most likely to be defended by Local allies (who would actually be Local, since the PMB isn't a random hill miles from the lattice), but the Defences could be ramped up.
    Why could they be? As all profit & motive to build a PMB, would involve it being near the lattice, with accessability.
    Rather than the present "Stick it in a ravine", or some manner of Hell hole as far away as possible, where clipping into the terrain is easily done..

    With the bases also gaining this purpose, their defenses can be tailored to the environment.
    Which rather than buffing bases fused into a rockface, it's bases Most likely exposed in the open.

    They're is no way to prevent force-multiplier spam however from rolling over a base (let alone if even with such value, that not a single defender is near the base before that hits)
    Without making a lone PMB, impossible to destroy if defended.
    That's the tricky thing: Anything that denies massive numbers of force-multipliers by itself, and is automated
    Is able to make a single squad defending it, basically immortal.
  14. Bort-Mattherson

    I like the goal of trying to make PMB's more useful, but any field that can dunk on platoons needs to be super carefully managed. I mean, what else besides the OS could do that? Why not just setup pain fields all over the map just stop the flow of the game altogether?
  15. Smoo

    Good point, actually. But not likely to be a practical problem.

    For that, you need many many silos, many many people manning the silos, and one person per pain field. In addition, each pain field needs to be defended- they can be killed remotely, by air or tanks, or as little as someone with an Archer or explosive crossbow.

    If everyone is in the field attempting this, just drop on the base behind them, and cap it easily.

    FURTHERMORE, if that same platoon sets up a ways away with a balanced composition, a fair bit of AV, and a spawn point, they can very easily take turrets down, walk into the base, and blow up the pain fields.


    ...

    It's almost like pain fields aren't perfect, but could prolong a fight long enough for it to actually BE a fun fight.

    Oh wait, no, that's exactly what it is. :rolleyes:

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