And its not even in the same ballpark, and you didnt say almost, you said "the same". So dont try and delude yourself - and there was plenty of flaws in your logic, I just didn't want to start a whole thing about it to derail the topic, but sure lets go ahead now. Try and compare the MSW-R with the Cycler or even the Orion and then get back to me. Hint, i did it numerous times in other topics and ill gladly bury you in stats that are actually accurate instead of your half *** guessing. Another hint, the MSW-R reloads faster than the Orion has same accuracy, has access to ALS and SPA - but funny enough this isnt on your list. Or the people who upvote actual stats are the people who have a clue and not people like you trying to make up your own numbers and compare 2 completly different weapon categories which makes no sense what so ever. Also you are trying to hard and even saying no bullet drop on a strictly CQC gun is a huge factor. Lets compare rocket launcer with pistols next. EDIT: Also TR's AR arsenal blows any VS AR out of the water, so overall its a good plan for you to bring up the cycler.
I'm sorry, but your just flat out wrong. The T1 Cycler has superior accuracy over the Orion where it counts (Standing Move ADS .3 vs .4, and Vertical Recoil .27 vs .4), not to mention the T1's vastly superior hip-fire accuracy. Where are you getting that the reload speeds are the same? The short reload on the T1 is half a second faster than the Orion. Also, I play all three empires and bullet drop is hardly a factor unless your dealing with a silenced bolt action at 200m+.
Cycler TRV HAS 10 less ammo in mag, has 3x brutal first shot Multiplier Orion has 2.1x, HAS NO 0.75 SPEED, muzzl velocity 580, Orion has 570 plus no bullet drop, has much worse horizontal recoil min 0.275 to 3.0 max, orion has 2.0 min and 2.25 max which even goess less with forward grip, both weapons have same ADS cone of fire values and in hipfire only trv has it extremely slightyl better 2.0 to orion which has 2.5 or 2.25. Gr22 has all inferior except hipfire and RPM reload speed is better by 0.2 than Orions which is nothing it has much worse everything, 3x brutal FSmultiplier Orion has 2.1x, 2.5 to 2.75 horizontal to Orions 2.0 2.25, has a bullet drop with 30more velocity than Orion lol, plus which is cake on top it all you can use Orion with all these stats on a heavy assault that has a shield which adds around 650 more hp lol. Bare in mind that SPAmmo reduces muzzle velocity by 50 so if you equip it for example on Cycler TRV oyu get 530 velocity with a bullet drop making the weapon horrible past 10 metres, especially for headshots and that is only attachment next to ALsight that they can use and Orion cannot, but if you use forward grip on Orion you get less than 0.2 horizontal recoil which makes it very ccuarte even after you hold mouse first 2 seconds, hard to miss really, hyper accuracy and no bullet drop with 750 RPM and 0.75 speed. If you don't get these stats you are either deluded or ignorant
And now another special guy appears and hes even from das anfall, oy. The Orion has 0.35 COF when you move and shoot from ADS just like majority of Assault rifles therefore your argument is invalid, also theres no Standing moving ADS, it doesnt make sense taht you stand and move plus ADS, are you implying that when you move that you are standing??? Those stats are standing ADS probably but i don't belive them because can't find, but even if it's true 1 out of 10 VS heavies stand when they shoot and that 1 is probably br5 who never played an FPS game before but plays to admire the graphics. 0.75 speed on hyper accurate lmg with no bullet drop is hilarious especially after you say its nothing when most of the time you are scoring headshots on medium range and enemy is not is because you don't have bullet drop, DA guys should have been aware of that, seems like you are special one of them i guess. So im sory eyeclops you are flat out wrong except on the short reload thing, long reload is 3.55 to 3.65 of Orion, so 'almost the same' and let's not forget you use Orion on Heavy not medic lolo. My suggestion to SOE, either remove 0.75 ADS speed or reduce ROFby 35 or 50 so TR is the only faction that has exculsive 750 ROF LMGs meaning it's their faction trait.
Hey, both of you keep it civil. This is a place of discussion and stating of opinions, this is a safe place.
The prenerf Shredder came close??? Yeah, right. The Shredder either had the same or better stats that the Banshee (including splash). Added on to a platform that had a lot more durability. The Shredder was vastly superior.
And guess what, you've neatly evaded some other aspects of this weapon. Such as how it has 95 higher RoF, access to SPA, gets to mount an Advanced Laser Sight and for good measure the Orion has almost twice the vertical recoil. The TRV also resets the CoF at a faster rate than the Orion. How about that? If you're going to compare them, at least list everything.
See my comments above in RED. I think the problem is you're only looking at a partial stats sheet. Use the google docs one located here: PS2 Weapon Data Sheets AUG06 You bullet drop "DA" comment is lulzy, the only time VS's lack of bullet drop gave any significant advantage was when shotgun slug sniping (but now VS slugs have bullet drop so that point is moot).
I'm starting to liek this oy. 'everything else is almost exact the same, even reload speed.' there's 'almost' behind can you see. blind on purpose? I can't edit stuff i wrote 2 days ago i think you know that. Who said it has to be in same ballpark? And why it should be if you think it should, for weapon comparison? What you think, all weapons shouldn't be balanced? I don't see any clear advantages T1 Cycler has over Orion, any that is significant enough anyway it's not like default hipfire of 2 is any good to beat Orion's 2.5, you are going to strafe anyway so it will go ugly against shield+ Orion as medic versus it. I don't see how ARs and LMGs so different except that most LMGs have more ammo in trade for less reliability in terms of vertical recoil that can be controlled by any remotely experienced FPS player. Only significant recoil that is harder to control is of 0.55 or 0.5+ like Gauss Saws. MSW-R and T1 Cycler comparison now lol? Sure but it makes no sense because MSW-R is inferior to Orion in 1v1/dueling too much to be considered rival unless you think SPAmmo (that decreases your muzzle velocity on a low velocity bullet drop LMG like MSWR(570?) by 50 only to increase max dmg range to 15m which makes you shoot 1 less bullet to kill on that range than otherwise in most cases ) is something that makes it better than Orion despite so many inferiorites then you have to think a little bit deeply about it . MSW-R reloads 3.045 short, long 3.65 Orion reloads 3.28 short long 3.65 Same accuracy lol, are you playing infantry at all? MSW-R min horizontal 2.25 2.25 max horizontal Orion min horizontal 2.0min 2.25 max plus consider that almost all semi competent VS heavies value 0.75 speed and are using forward grip since they are going to ADS most of the time and that means it's horizontal goes lower than 2 in most cases, so overall horizontal comparison gets heavy into Orion's side easily considering that MSWR uses ALS and no forward grip in order to play to it's strenghts. Talking about MSWR strenghts there was a thead that showed difference between ALS MSWR and laser sight Orion, the ingame differnnce showed just 0.25 better hipfire cof MSWR with ALS when compared to Orion but ingame cof crosshair looked almost exactly the same, was just so negligible. So horizontal recoil bias or spread? MSW-R's bullets tend to go on the right side with 17/20 recoil angle without forward grip, with it the MSWR basically get's Orion's H.recoil bias which is first mid then according to max spread goess randomly to left and right with no favorable. Now if you have ever used Orion with forward grip you will notice if you do bursts of 5-6 bullets all bullets go middle no matter if you are standing or moving and if you start spraying over 7-8 bullets they kinda start moving randomly to left and right. after 10 bullets spray it get's noticeable. Both weapons have same ADS move Cof values, and both have same COF hipfire values. So after this, how is MSWR better if it has all cof values the same except worse horizontal recoil and worse recoil pattern as well as 10 velocity difference with MSWR having bullet drop? And consider if MSWR wants to play to it's strenghts which it got and no 0.75 Speed, MSWR user has much worse horizontal recoil because he uses ALS, has much worse muzzle velocity 530 if he wants to use 15 metres 143 dmg bonus from SPA with having bullet drop thus increasing it even more with less bullet speed. So mister classic forumsider called sindz can you englighten me on this comparison since you are going to destroy me so hard on this because you have all true numbers that show the obvious?
I'm sorry, but you're theory crafting with incorrect numbers and pointing to mechanics that have virtually no effect when a weapon is used as intended (Who cares about bullet drop on a short range LMG?). People will read my output and agree because it has correct information with a good logical backing proved by tons of in game experience. Let's see how many people "like" your posts vs mine shall we.
I I really like how you didn't explain anything there 'why i'm not correct' and that you ignored mine statement that was in the same sentence as the one you wrote in red :' and don't forget that Orion is on a HA not medic and i'm showing the stats that say that HA Orion LMG is superior to medic default AR lol. Also your 0.52 kpmin on Orion and 24 acc 13percent HS rates show that DA actually has some humanity in them lol if they keep you playing with them . jokes aside ofc, my stats aren't incorrect in that doc either so sorry.
' good logical backing proved' where? no bullet drop on cqc LMG? cqc in this game is 10metres i.e. range that you do your maximum dmg per bullet 1-10m 143 for example for Orion. but most infantry fights are pseudo medium range 15-30m, and with no bullet drop you can more reliably hit heads and track enemies on range, it's more than enough for good FPS player to get a kdr as HA at least well over 7 or 8 if the knows bases. I think if i showed you my character even most skilled and experienced players from DA would hackusate me, and you would think no way it's me.
MSW-R vs Orion, both 750 ROF. MSW - R reload: 3.045/3.305 Vertical recoil: 0.35 Horizontal recoil 0.225/0.225 predictable recoil --> only. First shot recoil: 2.5 COF Stand ADS: 0.1 - 0.35 COF Crouch ADS: 0.1 - 0.2 COF stand hip: 3 - 3.75 - 7 COF crouch hip: 2.25 - 3 COF bloom/shot: ADS: 0.05 Hip: 0.1 Attachments: SPA and ALS. Orion: reload: 3.28/3.655 Vertical recoil: 0.40 Horizontal recoil 0.200/0.225 unpredictable recoil <-- = --> . First shot recoil: 2.25 COF Stand ADS: 0.1 - 0.40 COF Crouch ADS: 0.1 - 0.2 COF stand hip: 2.75 - 3.50 - 7 COF crouch hip: 2.25 - 2.75 COF bloom/shot: ADS: 0.05 Hip: 0.1 Attachment: Grip or Laser sight. Bullet Drop is a non issue in CQC and mid range. Ranges where it does matter you shouldn't be shooting anyway. The only thing the Orion really has going for it over the MSWR is ADS speed. Otherwise, statistically the MSWR is arguably better. Furthermore stop trying to compare TR Medic ARs to VS HA LMGS, it makes you look stupid. Carry on.
All VS LMGs have the .4 stand move COF ADS value. Since you seem confused, that value refers to the accuracy of your weapon while you are standing (as opposed to crouched), aiming down the sight, and moving. Many VS LMG's used to have .35, but that was changed a while back with the blanket hipfire nerf. That said, if you're looking to see the Orion changed, the balance argument isn't going to cut it in a game where PPAs, Banshees, and Maxes run amok. If you instead focus on the fact that a .75 ADS modifier is a really weird thing to have on a LMG, or the fact that 750 RPM is not a VS trait, you'll gain a lot more traction.
TRV also resets the CoF at a faster rate than the Orion, where, any stat to back that up friend? If you use adv laser on Cycler TRV you gon end up with having 2.75 and 3.0 horizontal vs Orions (without forward grip) 2.0 min and 2.25max and what attachment would Orion user use other than the FGrip since your spread lowers even more on ADS. Fun fact, with 3x first shot multiplier and 0.25 vertical recoil your weapon is going to jump up more than even 1.65x 0.55 vertical recoil SAW if you like to fire in bursts, and all players who have accuracy over 25 in this game tend to fire in bursts every time they shoot. Common sense guys all you need to understand. Orion has only 2.1x on that much RPM and with forward grip it's horizontal reocil is less than 0.2, basicaly it becomes like EM1 652 ROF LMG horizontal recoil if you use adv laser sight and no FG. I don't want to sound arrogant or condenscending but you guys have to think a little bit more through all you know about shooting mechanics and how they work, especially sindz and eyeklops as well all others who agree with their delusions on shooting and weapon balance. Don't you guys see the obvious already, if i didn't enlighten you with this, noone will because only so very few on these forums think for themselves and choose by themselves what is righrt and what is wrong, logic is not existant.
I've replaced my commissioner with the T4-Amp as TR. I find the idea of a fully automatic 900+ RPM pistol hard to resist. It's a bullet hose of epic proportions.
Huh? Those numbers are the minimum and maximum magnitudes of horizontal recoil, they have nothing to do with direction. In both cases, the direction of horizontal recoil can be left or right. On average, half of your horizontal recoil instances are to the left, half are to the right. With both MSW-R and Orion, horizontal recoil is unpredictable <-- = -->. The difference between them is just that with MSW-R, the amount of horizontal recoil per shot is always 0.225, while with Orion, it can be anywhere between 0.200 and 0.225. Lower horizontal recoil magnitude is better even if it is variable, because there's no way you can compensate for horizontal recoil anyway due to its random left-right nature. Many people recommend grip over ALS with the MSW-R. This reduces horizontal recoil to 0.169, making the weapon more effective at medium-long range, and more accurate for headshots closer than that as well.
/sigh You misunderstood what I was posting. I was posting how much horizontal recoil both weaspons have and their bias. The MSWR has Right bias recoil and the Orion has Side to Side recoil bias.
Replace MSW-R with T1 Cycler and I agree. The MSW-R does indeed have a right biased horizontal recoil pattern (which can be compensated for).
Why wouldn't i compare weapon like AR that by it's class should be better than LMG on HA that get's shield in trade to get worse weapons? I don't kno whos getting stupid, unless you think, thinking out of the box is stupid. I think thinking inside the box is ignorant. All those stats i wrote specificaly and was correct, excet that you prove now that Orion has better default hipfire than MSWR that should be hipfire weapon lol. just look at those cof hipfire stats and include that MSWR uses ALS. It's all obvious just from reading, and btw you are wronmg on unpredictable recoil, who said it's unpredictable? Does it seem like it is when you start shooting? When i shoot with Orion bullets always, i repeat, Always go from middle of the barrel to the infront. But how to explain that -- = -- recoil to simpletons like you guys. Let me see, ok you start shooting and you shoot for 2seconds all bullets go infront and now considering you held you LMB all the time while shooting those bullets(to make it clear in 1 seconds with 750 RPM you shot 12.5 almost 13bullets) those 12 bullets went infront of the gun and now just right as you are holding your LMB for 1 more second you see random pattern of horizontal spread going left and right, that right there is unpredictable but if you burst fire with Orion, you are almost never going to get that spread to 'unpredictable' i.e. random. You can test that, best would be with forward grip, youll see that it goes like this. But shanter i have a feeling you wont get this because you have a MAX in your avatar screen.
