One possible solution to the AV-MANA Turret with out nerfing it to extinction

The problem with the mana turret is not its range, its the fact that it renders as infantry causing vehicles to not be able to actually shoot back. I've had several instances where I could easily see exactly where the rocket was being shot from but I had no way to respond to it as its not within my render distance. The simple solution as it has already been stated is to set the turrets render distance to the same as vehicles. This will put it on an equal playing field with the vehicles in the game. For the people who whine going "This is our only way to effectively kill tanks." Its not, grab a heavy class and help your team or pick up some C4.

TLDR: AV Mana Turrets and Bio Labs are the most effective and reliable methods to deal with a Tank Zerg. Recent nerfs have limited the effectiveness of other Tank Countesr. And (mixed) Tank in large groups (20+) are very good at nullifying Tank Counters that are effective vs. single or small groups of Tanks.

Tank Zergs are especially resilient because when they are gathered in very large numbers they are very good at handling the weaknesses that a Tank has by itself or in small numbers. Skyguards can neutralize Air, Radar and Splash Damage and sheer number of eyes and guns can neutralize Infantry, and sheer number of eyes and guns can neutralize Vehicles by locking down Vehicle Terminals or handling Vehicles coming from other directions but doing so piecemeal. We are not talking single or small groups of Tanks, we are talking 20+ Tanks + support crew.

You have to also take into account how some of the other threats to Tanks have been nerfed. Air, Harassers, Tank Mines, Striker, etc. Such that you are now dealing with a pool of current Tank Counters where many have been reduced in their effectiveness relative to what was in the game before. And this is fine and good for Single Tanks and Tanks in small numbers, where such Tank Counter reductions help keep those Tank Counters from being too dominant. But it also leaves the game with fewer counters to Tank Zergs. But luckily AV Mana Turrets are still in the game, and they are a very effective way to counter Tank Zergs.

AV Mana Turrets are very good at addressing Tank Zergs. And they are very rewarding to Engineers that use them vs. Tank Zergs. But they are much less impressive vs. single Tanks. Reason being that to be effective, an Engineer must set-up at a specific distance and elevation, which is a lot of work. And to do that just to possible get 1 Tank kill isn't very effective. ESF Engineers can sidestep this set-up time by flying to such a location very easily and then set-up a kill attempt (most useful vs. Skyguard), but the elevated locations make the parked ESF a very visible target to enemy Air. (I have used ESFs to set-up AV Mana Turret vs. Tank attacks many times, and it's a coin flip on whether my ESF or are killed by enemy Air or not)

As I have stated, AV Mana Turrets and Bio Labs (in Lattice) are the only way to effectively kill Tank Zergs.

There are many ways to kill Tanks and small groups of Tanks effectively. But when Tanks are in a very large group, their combined resources are able to nullify most effective Anti Tank methods.

they aren't though; lots of bases provide perfectly suitable opportunities to break up enemy armor groups. Indar ex to hvar is super hostile to armor, as is the climb from tawrich to crossroads, from mao to the palisade, etc. Easimir also has some pretty effective 'anti-tank bases' that aren't biolabs.

the AV turret is obviously really effective at killing tanks. But it's mostly effective in situations where lots of other solutions would also be effective. Any elevated position that tanks have to cross open ground to get at is going to be an effective spot to kill armor, and the current incredibly annoying incarnation of the AV mana turret isn't necessary to take advantage of those.

There are some locations where terrain makes Tanks much more vulnerable. And a large enough group of defenders set up with AV in these areas can be very effective. But if the defenders are not set and ready to go, these areas a quickly traversed and the opportunity is gone. Or if Snipers or ESFs are sent to disperse Infantry AV at many of them, it won't work.

These are areas where Vehicles are vulnerable. And I would love to see more of these on the maps. But they are only a small number of areas, and they require proper numbers, unit types, and the awareness to setup, or the opportunity is quickly lost. In addition, these Vehicle killing fields are not evenly distributed between Warpgates. Southwest Warpgate in particular does not have many of these areas to deal with.

We've seen the dark days of OP Tank Zergs back when the Prowler Splash was buffed. I don't recall Tank Killer Terrain being able to derail those Tank Zergs.

I don't see that the AV Mana Turret is mostly effective in situations where lots of other solutions would also be effective. The AV Mana Turret is most effective at extreme distance and at a high elevation. Most other forms of AV won't work well at these ranges.

Yes, Tanks having to cross open ground (or long bottlenecks) are vulnerable to enemies with AV. But I do not feel it's enough to stop OP Tanks Zergs without AV Mana Turret. AV Mana Turret is OP as heck vs. Tanks without cover at a distance, and ideally they could be nerfed so that it wasn't such a slaughter. But Tank Zergs (like most Ugly OP Unit domination periods we've see so far in the game's history) are right there waiting for some gameplay balance to shift just enough to empower them into coming back again.

Q spotting should reveal Mana turrets beyond their render distance, which allows you to fire at them accurately.

The AV mana rendering is bug. PERIOD.

Once it's fixed the turret is perfect. In particular because an Egineer needs tons of rockets to take down a tank, while even a Lightning just needs 1 missile.

SOE answer to your request: Mount it on an ESF and let it shoot 2 at a time.

I think you all should quit complaining about the AV turret now that hornet missiles are on PTS.

Today I got shot again by a mana AV turret just outside his render range while me being in my tank. :L

Just wait for the new ESF AV weapons. You'll settle for AV Mana Turrets.

simple fix limit it to infantry render range.. there is zero reason at all an infantry soldier should be able to attack anything when they can not be attacked back.simple as that. if there is zero chance of defeat there should be zero chance of reward. if your not rendered you should n't be able to do damage.

then i want my phoenix to have the same range as the av turret... if you can sit on a hill outside of render range i want to be able to sit behind a hill 500m out and kil tanks... oh what was that.. oh thats unfair you say...

av turrets allready have auto stealth... they don't show up when they are being fired, they can set up 500-600m out and still manage to hit vehicles moving in and out of cover at 88kph they can fire out further than shields render making shields useless.

no they need to be limited to 300-350m MAX to be actually be remotely balanced... once thats done then you can start looking at ways to tweak it. but untill its at least balanced with every other weapon in the game risk vs reward.. nothing can be done but fix it or remove it.

Stupid complaining about other people complaining they can get killed by superior numbers bit.

So... BASR snipers are unreasonable? They work at ranges where they are invisible and due to lag they get a kill hit before your client has even made them visible.
That's part of the game (intended OHK while being invisible to your victim).

At 300m or less the AV mana, as it is, is near useless, it's too slow, you're exposed to EVERYTHING for too long (because you have to do the turret dance to just place it down then wait for it to spawn) and frankly at only 1000dmg per shot it's not really worth it considering after one hit you're likely to get the tanks gun on you.
1vs1 of a AV mana and a tank is pretty in favour of the tank, even certed so to it's shortest cool down it still takes a long time (read, plenty of time to get to cover) to kill said tank.
Yeah sure if there's more than one then you're gonna die, same as if you went 2vs1 with anything in this game (unless of course we're talking infils vs tank seeing as small arms just don't harm tanks).

And sure you can say "BUT RESOURCES!!!!". So what? The AI mines i place cost resources and they can be shot by anything. Same with ESFs and Harassers and Flashes (which i'd like to point out doesn't even come with a gun to defend itself). Resources are irrelevant.

Complaining of the "OP! UNFAIR! IT KILLS ME" complaints over i'll now add my two certs.

I would like the AV mana changed, the only place it's useful is miles from the battle, away from the rest of the infantry, where frankly i'd much rather be supplying all the HA with sweet batteries for their rockets.Also it's probably the most realistic to life weapon in this game, which instantly makes it OP. It's like bringing a tomahawk cruise missile to a knife fight, you either make sure you're a good distance from the fight and do well or try using it up close and end up (at best) killing someone before you get stabbed.
My solution would be to get rid of the wireless rockets and just have an AI turret (as in has a shield) but with the Vektor, maybe with having more placement options so that you can place them on many of the slopes you get in PS2 (because atm the only place you can reliably place turrets down is in buildings and walk ways which tanks don't often go and always watch when they're in the area anyway).
Then you wouldn't have to render it as a vehicle (limiting it to 300m munition range), the tankers couldn't QQ about getting hit by infils, sorry, engineers and shooting through unrendered shields would be less likely. It'd be decent against Infantry with some shield protection from everything (making the turret dance worth actually placing it down), it'd glow bright *insert factions glowy colour* and it'd still be competitive as AV and even AA (if they buffed the standard turrets elevation ability).
They could even nerf the COF, because at them ranges hitting a tank with x1.35 zoom would be as easy as hitting a biolab, while inside it, using a shotgun (or hitting a biolab with the current AV mana from 800+ meters away).
Of course you would be getting rid of one of the most interesting weapons in the game, I mean the only thing that's comparable in terms of "this is an interesting to use weapon" is the pheonix. Which would be a shame but hey people like to complain about interesting stuff cause interesting is OP.

i'm not saying is op i'm not saying its unfair... but 90% of the game balance they have so far is risk vs reward there is zero risk for 100% of the reward, take out the exp i woulnd't give a damn if they were at their warpgate shooting, if they want to be so far fro mth fight they shouldn't get any exp. if i'm out of a certain radius of a base when it caps i don't get the exp. why should htey be in the middle of no where raining down fire not showing up on the map, rockets not even rendering IE. ZERO risk they should have ZERO exp

You are clearly an "Infantryside" only player and know little to nothing about the vehicle game. Actually you are whining about Vehicles being OP. If you are shooting at someone you have to take the Risk to being shot back at. The Opposite is God Mode. Let's turn the tables. What about if vehicles could see and shoot Infantry from 1000 meters, but the range of all AV Weapons would be limited at 300 m? Does it sound fair and fun to you?

Like someone suggested here before:

Make the AV turret work like the halberd, it would still be effective, and wouldn't ruin balance at all IMO.

You're right, i do play infantry mostly and when i don't it's usually just for transport.
But that doesn't make my opinion and views invalid.
It doesn't sound fair or fun and it isn't.
If you want to take out a tank from a distance you have a few options.
AV mana.
HA rockets (which are hard coded to 300 meters).

Every other option requires getting right up next to the OHK machine to lob C4 or AV mines or you spawning a vehicle to counter it (which is no good if you don't have the resources to spare).


Where's the risk you're taking by shooting at someone with only small arms? You simply aren't, yes you're risking taking damage from other classes and other people but you're not risking it from me. Exactly like engineers are when they use the AV mana!! Snipers can easily get into range and shoot me while i'm on a turret (it's not like the smoke doesn't give me away). Liberators can easily bomb me. A light assault could take me out. Even a sneaky tank can get into range and kill me, which is much better than a class that only have small arms on them can do to you.

So here's the question.
How do you explain that it's not unfair that you're immune to any class that doesn't have AV but it's unfair that there is one weapon where it's simply possible (not even hard coded like your immunity is) to be immune to you?
And yes you can argue that "They can just run away, reclass or ask for help" but so can a tank.

If you say resources, i'm afraid i would have to demand that AV mines and C4 get a buff to guarantee a kill regardless of what hits it, because "resources".

I would reply to the other guy, but i wouldn't know how, i don't care much for the XP, you can take the XP away from the AV mana for all i care. I'd still use it to help my side. Tbh he sounds a bit like a farmer which isn't a view i understand on the game. Though tbh being immune to all small arms fire doesn't exactly sound like it's on the risky side of high risk high reward....

I'd prefer they just give the AV mana turret a better depression and let it be deployed on more places and make it fire a Halberd rocket, or maybe it could rapid fire a stream of small rockets or something. The guided sniper rocket is silly, and I mostly play an infantry engineer.

You can not compare Phoenix and AV turret : AV turret require line of sight. You can move with your pheonix (well, not when the rocket is in flight of course). Plus, the official reason for the phoenix limited range is that when using it, you spawn inside and you can't get more than 300m away from your firing position (infantry render limit ?)
I don't know the details but they invoked this technical limitation.

As for the AV MANA turret, it is not exactly the same problematic. But sure, they can limit its range. They already did by limiting the in flight time of the rocket; it's just that it's not enough (for a lot of people)

There is actually very little I can say to you. But I'll try my best:

First of all, try to use vehicles and see both sides of the game, then come back here and give us your second Opinion. Most vehicles are immune to small arms fire (Isn't it logical that a Heavy Armored vehicle won't take damage from a Rifle?) AV Mana Turrets are all about range and placement/positioning. They have unlimited range and the engineer using it can't be shot by vehicles because it has practically 3 times the range of any vehicle where Infantry doesn't even render and is practically Invincible. If you are getting shot by snipers or even other small arms fire, you definitely placed your AV Mana Turret in the wrong place. Even a few AV Mana Turrets can create a 1 km Deadzone for any Ground Vehicle. There's really no counter to it. The only thing you can do is sending Infantry forward for a suicidal Footzerg, since you can't use Sunderers. I can count the times I've been killed by air while using an AV Mana Turret, it's that rare. The Projectile of the AV Mana Turret doesn't even render many times, even if it does, it only shows the general direction of the user. There's definitely no "Sneaky Tank" that can get behind you. Even if it's a very skilled and lucky Magrider, it'll be killed in a few seconds, because there's a ton of Infantry around. If you let the biggest Ground Vehicle in the game get behind you, it's your fault for having Tunnel Vision.

The only class that doesn't have AV weapons in the game is the Infiltrator. Your problem is that you try to treat vehicles as just another Infantry class, which they aren't. They are tools.

The very high resource cost aside, vehicles need heavyly certed to be viable on the Battlefield. The sum of certs we are talking about often reaches tens of thousands.

All in all, you seem to blame vehicles and therefore the game itself for your own Misunderstanding of the game Mechanics and your own shortcomings as a player. Instead of writing and explaining all of this, I could've just say "L2P or QQ, N00b!" and most of the Forumsiders would actually agree with me. But I sincerely hope that you'll try harder to understand the game mechanics and improve yourself as a player, so that you can enjoy the game too instead of complaining and getting frustrated to the point where you don't want to play anymore.

I do use vehicles i just don't tend to use them offensively, i find it boring.

Is it logical that some vehicles don't take small arms fire? YES entirely, however is it also logical that a wirelessly guided missile would have a range of 10km (no that's not a typo). If you're going to use logic on a video game, it'd be a very boring video game with perpetual instgibs. We'd all have grenades that'd clear a building, UBGLs on every weapon and an ESF would do mach 2 while carrying 2000lb smart bombs... It's foolish to try an apply logic and RL to a game like this.

They don't have unlimited range it's 1km and they aren't invincible, there also isn't "no counter to it", that's entire hyperbole, you can shoot any mana turret if you're close enough, or you can ignore the mana and just shoot the engineer. I have done this many times on both types of mana, if you're not close enough, that's you're fault not theirs. Even not being able to see where it is isn't an issue. You know if you're taking un-directional damage then you know it's more than 300 meters away and a quick scan of the terrain and asking yourself "where would i be?" (or even previous experience) should tell you where they are so you can flank them. If they're organised and are a squad of AV mana's then be thankful that they're a good distance from the main battle and not up close and personal as HA's first killing your engineers and then focusing fire on you.

All the rendering issues (shooting through shield etc) are BUGS that do need fixing because they're meant to render.
But still bugs though, not game balancing things.

Yes if you get shot by an invisible player from 300m away it's somehow your fault for not being situationally aware. I'm sorry but in that case if you get killed by a dozen invisible mana turrets from 1000m away it's also your fault for not being situationally aware of the invisible. If you get jumped by a shotgun light assault or a c4 fairy it's also your fault for not looking up. You are not omniscient, you will get killed sooner or later. Yes a dozen AV mana are hard to counter as a vehicle but so is countering a dozen MBTs as pretty much anything else.

The solution to a few av mana turrets somehow creating a 1km deadzone is using a high altitude galaxy to drop a few players on them. Or a high altitude lib. Or an ESF. Or even a wraith infiltrator. If they're a squad and you're attacking with a squad of tanks QQing that it's unfair when you die is like QQing that an Anti tank mine can blow up a tank....

If they have friends, then it's going to be more difficult, that's how teamwork works in this game. For example a couple av mana turrets can also be countered by having a few engineers constantly repair you (yes it's not ideal but it's a war game, you're meant to be making the best out of a bad situation...).

Yes only the infil has no options, but only the HA has stock access to AV and only the HA and engineer have "free" options to kill vehicles.
All the others require heavy certing (if you even want a chance to go against most vehicles),into C4 and spending lots of resources on C4 and suicide runs, how much does it cost to blow up a mbt? 200 resources? 300? I can't remember. Oh and if you only damage it them resources will be completely wasted because of the free repair they'll get within a few seconds of the damage being done.
Yes you can also do this with the buggy, less reliable and slightly cheaper inflatable AV mines as well but it's still most likely going to be a one way trip unless there are no infantry around, which there will be, because it's an MMO.

I'm not QQing about getting killed by vehicles (frankly if i didn't get out of its way in time, it's probably my fault) and i don't think any of my shortcomings have come up (other than i find vehicles in this boring), perhaps my shortcoming is that i can just accept that my knowledge of the battle is incomplete and that there is going to be a mine, a pack of C4 or any one of a hundred different other things that is going to surprise me and kill me.
Tbh i think you're projecting, i don't get frustrated by vehicles, i've never seen a vehicle zerg and thought "I don't want to play this game anymore", i just /suicide to deny them a kill and deploy elsewhere (or attack them if it looks like we can), however it seems to me that AV mana's are ruining the game for you because you've given up trying to counter them and that you feel frustrated because you can't accept that in this game, you die, often. Also i'm not complaining about vehicles (though tbh i think resource ammo should do permadamage but that's another thing entirely), i'm complaining about players complaining about AV mana instead of just dealing with them. I admit i find vehicles in this game boring which some people (including you) interpret to mean frustrating but the two do have entirely different meanings and i am more aware than you of how i feel about vehicles, if you enjoy them i'm glad you do, but i'm pretty sure you can think of a style of play possible in this game that you find boring rather than frustrating, with me it's sniping and vehicles (yup i actually find the AV mana boring as well, it's why i haven't certed it on my new character and why my suggestion for the AV change was effectively a normal turret with a libs Vektor instead of an AI gun).

A condensed version of what i'm trying to say is. You die in this game, often by something you didn't expect, if you're in a vehicle you already have the advantage that the average infantry can't even touch you without using up a huge chunk of their resources and their certs, so stop QQing yourself about a weapon that can only potentially be invincible to you if everything goes well for them.