Now that the Phoenix is half fixed...

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Springheel Jack, Mar 29, 2013.

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  1. KRE8R125

  2. Barana


    Allow me to introduce you to the EM15, the NC's first Gauss prototype:

    Yes, it was powered by 4 AA batteries. They were a bit short on supplies, what with all the rebellion and whatnot. Where do you think the Vanu got the idea from?

    If you can't tell, this isn't a serious post.
    • Up x 1
  3. Aegie

    All these posters who start nerf/buff threads without an once of rational explanation or valid evidence should be treated the same way as hackers and banned- they are poisoning the community and thereby the game.

    Either balance issues are made based on (A) the volume of cry threads like these in the forums or (B) rational arguments supported with valid evidence. It cannot be both A and B. The more it appears that balances are made based on (A) the more the game looks like a sad joke not worth being played unless you're willing to cry your eyes out in the forums.

    As I have posted elsewhere, "within carbines TR has the highest average DPS (M = 1747.78) with VS in second highest average DPS (M = 1734.61) and NC with the lowest DPS (M = 1692.90). Within light machine guns TR has the highest average DPS (M = 1658.74) followed by VS (M = 1634.23) and finally NC (M = 1628.76). Within assault rifles TR has the highest average DPS (M = 1804.86) followed by NC (M = 1717.80) and finally VS (M=1634.28). Also, take a look at the DPS difference in pistols- I'll give you three guesses who has the highest.

    I mention this not as a claim that any of the factions are OP because clearly DPS does not account for all variables present in gameplay that determine outcomes.

    Still, damage output is a central variable and within carbines we have TR>VS>NC, within LMGs TR>VS>NC and with ARs TR>NC>VS. So in every major category that is not essentially the same (e.g. sniper rifles, shotguns, smgs) we see that TR has the highest average DPS with VS second in 2/3 and NC second in only 1/3.

    Again, I am not trying to claim that DPS is the only meaningful metric. However, I do think that if you are going to ask "who is more OP, NC or TR" then you may want to ask why you are not including VS when they outperform NC in DPS in 2 out of 3 categories of weapons. At the very least, showing that TR>VS>NC in terms of average DPS among the major weapon classes where there are differences means that you should probably have a little more than your feelings to bring to the table to counter this information. One more time, I'm not saying that DPS is the only meaningful metric but I would say that damage over time is one of the most central to understanding the power of a faction. I want balance as well but I hardly think you can arrive at balance by making adjustments according to how one or two factions feel about a third because you would just wind up nerfing everyone into dust.

    I see, so you feel that the DPS advantage of the Carv9 and Orion over the SAW is outweighed by the accuracy of the SAW.

    SAW: Recoil .55 upward, balanced .175 left and right; COF Values: 0/0.55/3 0/0.2 3/4/5/7 2.5/3 ADS 0.07 HIP 0.14 with 600 projectile velocity and 11.25 projectile drop (with 200 damage @ 500RPM we have 100,000/60 DPS)

    Carv9: Recoil .4 upward, balanced .2 left and right; COF Values: 0.1/0.4/3 0.1/0.2 3/4/7/7 2.5/3 ADS 0.05 HIP 0.1 with 600 projectile velocity and 11.25 projectile drop (with 143 damage @ 750RPM we have 107,250/60 DPS)

    So the SAW has more vertical recoil by .15 (Carv9 has 72.72% the vertical recoil of the SAW) and less horizontal recoil by .025 (SAW has 87.5% the horizontal recoil of the Carv9). First shot, the SAW has 0 COF whereas the Carv9 has 0.1. Sprinting, the SAW has a tighter COF (5) than the Carv9 (7). COF bloom per shot is higher for the SAW in ADS by .02 and in HIP by .04 (Carv9 has only 71.4% the SAW's bloom in ADS and HIP- i.e. the SAW has ~30% more COF bloom than the Carv9). So basically, the SAW trades a .15 higher vertical recoil for .025 less horizontal recoil. Carv9 trades a first shot COF .1 higher and a sprinting COF 2 higher for a smaller ADS COF bloom by .02, smaller HIP COF bloom by .04 and slightly greater DPS. Or, the SAW has about 27% greater vertical recoil and about 29% more COF bloom whether ADS or HIP. In return, the SAW gets first shot accuracy, 12% less horizontal recoil and 29% less COF when sprinting.

    Accordingly to these numbers, I would think that the Carv9 would outperform the SAW in full auto because first shot accuracy is not very relevant, it has both a smaller ADS and HIP COF bloom and does more damage per second. I would also think that medium range would favor the Carv9 because the targets are larger and so burst or full auto would be possible wherein the Carv9's first shot handicap is less relevant and the COF bloom is more influential. At longer ranges I would think this situation may reverse as single shots and damage per shot become more meaningful, playing to the strengths of the SAW because first shot has 0 COF and the disadvantageous bloom values are less relevant whereas damage per shot is more relevant. IMO these values are so close that it is difficult to say that one weapon is far superior to another although personally I favor the SAW because it conforms more to my playstyle- accuracy and placement over DPS and amount of lead. Moreover, these differences seem to precisely reflect the faction differences- TR has higher ROF, NC has higher damage per shot, therefore TR should excel at spray-n-pray playstyles whereas NC should excel at long range shot placement.
    • Up x 6
  4. Locke

    This is the post I would of written if I had time today and kudos to you for answering these people with facts as opposed to opinion. The only thing you didn't mention is additional stuff apart from DPS like the faction specific bonuses VS & TR have including higher magazine carbines, quicker reloads, on average lower COF, on average lower bloom, incredibly clean 1x scopes etc. That is why NC weapons have higher bullet damage on average because we dont get all that stuff.
  5. Kon

    like the jackhammer is OP omfg its like the least OP of all shotguns. tbh it could use an additional 12-22 rounds in the pool to make it worth taking

    gauss saw doesn't need a nerf, carv just needs a tweak and orion needs a 75 round clip with additional 50 rounds in pool
    • Up x 1
  6. riker

    im just saying its math...........nice guns tho
  7. spacyman


    That's what every TR said to us.......
  8. Zenith

    I have to agree with this, and that's as a player with TR main.
  9. Sharpe

    Not a bad troll at all.
    You are a gentleman and a scholar sir.
    I say 7/10.
  10. Ganelon

    I still remember when they stealth-nerfed the Carv and Carv-S to beyond useless. Luckily, they recognised their mistake and stealth-buffed it again.
  11. Phrygen

    i thought they just added a silly delay on switching weapons... it made it annoying but the gun damage itself remained unchanged. Thats how i remember it anyway.
  12. Scorponok

    been waiting for a thread like this to appear..due to the devastation the saw can do...
  13. Ganelon

    That was in the patch notes, they also screwed over its CoF completely.
  14. NinjaTurtle

    Exactly this is what balanced is about a trade off for another advantage. Apparently though the new fad is if you are killed by it it must be OP

    No nerf required. Much rather make it a common pool weapon:p
  16. MykeMichail

    "For the first shot" being the key point here. Do you realise how long you have to stop shooting for to get your first shot CoF back?

    As someone's already said, it only does 167 at maximum range, and to get the 0 CoF you have to fire so slow that you might as well use a battle rifle for the extra damage.
  17. Nyscha

    VS have the smallest clips..
  18. Aegie

    Does VS have a 20 round carbine that does not have an extended clip option?
  19. RobotNinja

    Lol...the Gauss SAW is what you want to cry about now?

    The Gauss, like many NC weapons has good initial accuracy immediately followed up by the most ridiculous recoil and cone of fire in the game.

    While the TR's default LMG can hold a bead on someone's head for 3 full seconds before it starts to slowly drift upward, as soon as you hold fire the Gauss it is immediately kicking towards the ceiling.

    I love how TR fourthies especially do nothing but cry about the NC but most have only actually played a NC player for 10-30 minutes tops (if at all) before giving up in tears.
  20. drNovikov's about time to go nerf some Vanu weapons Like those LMGs with 0.75 ADS movement modifier. Let's add some recoil and bullet drop! I have to compensate for both with my Gauss SAW. And TR relly needs it's RoF to be significanlty lower. And some additional recoil.
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