Nothing Keeps SNIPERS in Check

Discussion in 'Infiltrator' started by IrishInsanity, Mar 15, 2017.

  1. IrishInsanity

    A common problem I'm seeing from many different and various changes to the game over time is that infiltrators have no real counter. Specifically, the extreme long range one-hit-kill infiltrators. Currently in the game if you get into any kind of outdoor field fight, half a mountain side will populate with infiltrators equipt with sniper rifles. Long range sniper infiltrators are very strong because they can kill someone in one hit and immediately cloak, go invisible, relocate, one hit kill someone again, relocate, one hit kill someone again and so on. The reason this ruins the game experience is that the only way to reliably kill an infiltrator at an extreme range is to pull your own infiltrator and snipe back. As a result you don't tend to see a good variety of other classes played outside.

    I want to discuss how I think this game got to this current state. Most recently the effective range of Assault Rifles and LMGS was changed to make them not as good in long range situations. Unless you play NC and have players with 200 damage laser accurate GAW SAWs you're going to have a miserable time against infiltrators outdoors. Vehicle High Explosive rounds use to be a way to keep snipers in check but HE is so poor that a lot of players run AP rounds on their tanks and land direct hits against infantry because it's more effective then using HE or HEAT with the added benefit that you can already damage vehicles significantly with AP. Vehicle thermal vision was also another tool to find the location of infiltrators and keep them in check but unfortunately you can no longer see infantry with thermal vision resulting in sniper infiltrators getting out of control in the current version of the game.

    I have one final point I want to leave you with using close quarter infiltrators as an example. The stalker cloak is a really fun cloak to use. You can can infiltrate behind lines, sneak around and backstab people or hack terminals at critical points in a battle. The reason this kind of play style is fun is because there is huge risk to playing this way. Playing as a sniper who is 1000 meters away has no real risk to it because you can cloak and give your enemies almost no chance in finding you if you want. I propose that infiltrators with sniper rifles should not be able to equipt any cloaking abilities. This would give the sniper playstyle high risk for the high reward of killing someone with one hit. Perhaps give snipers a passive hold breath ability in place of the cloak slot that requires the infiltrator to stand still to make it even riskier to play this way. I think Scout Rifles, SMGs and pistol infiltrators are tolerable because at least you have a chance to respond which creates risk for those play styles but the long range one hit kill sniper rifles are out of control in my opinion.
    • Up x 4
  2. JohnGalt36

    Don't stand still out in the open.
    • Up x 25
  3. Nabutso

    I find using long range weapons in general on HA works well. Especially a SAW or GODSAW, but something like the Bull will work too, because of it's single damage tier dropoff, and good stats for firing long range. A Resist heavy will survive non point blank HS from any Sniper Rifle, and as soon as a bolt****ter gets hit once they tend to cloak and hide; if you can guess where they're moving you get free damage here, and if they choose to try to fight back, they will likely miss due to your strafing and their flinching from your hits. If they cloak and get away, simply let them do so. You've survived, at least long enough to find cover, and they'll forget about you (they often run and hide without thought as to who exactly shot them). You can use this time to wait for their next shot (give them some time to get their shield up), flank, or ignore them (move inside).

    I don't remember the last time I've been killed by a bolt****ter.
  4. AudieSmurfy

    Infiltrators shouldn't be able to cloak if they want to equip a primary weapon. One-shots are also stupid in this game. Fix those two things and they would be tolerable.
    • Up x 4
  5. SlugSniper

    They would also be useless.
    • Up x 9
  6. Maecy

    So we must remove all faction primary tanks (Vanguard, Prowler, Magrider) and AV turrets because they can oneshot people. Great idea.
    • Up x 3
  7. Athaleon

    No, they would just have to learn to infiltrate places.

    Tanks cost nanites and turrets don't move. Are you really this disingenuous?
    • Up x 2
  8. SlugSniper

    The only balance I can understand that would be even remotely close to these suggestions would be to split Infiltrator into two classes:

    The sneaky guy who uncloaks in a guy's face and knifes them in the nose, then hacks an AV turret and vaporizes enemy Sunderers. No idea what type of primaries it would carry, if any.

    The sniper, motion spotter, or aggressive scout. Has access to Sniper Rifles, Scout Rifles, Battle Rifles, or SMGs.
  9. Skarzog

    The point is it's an extremely low risk way to play. If you're sniping behind some rocks at 1000m, it doesn't matter if you miss 15 shots . You're invisible and out of range. No counter play to that, it's just stupid.
    • Up x 3
  10. SlugSniper

    Dunno about that. I've outshot a lot of snipers with my trusty Warden.
  11. Ziggurat8

    Infiltrators on hillsides sniping people are a nuisance. A minor inconvenience at most.

    They in no way effect the actual outcome of anything except how far you have to travel to get back to where you were.

    They take no points, hold no points and do very little to discourage enemies from doing either of those things.

    They cannot kill vehicles or AMS's. If there's a whole mess of them on a hillside put your head inside of any vehicle other than a flash and you're perfectly safe from sniper fire.

    Snipers actually contributing to battles are usually close by or in the thick of it and much easier to deal with.

    As others have said, don't stand still. Snipers outside of about 90m can't 1hk moving targets unless they're gods or extremely lucky.
    • Up x 1
  12. cobaltlightning

    Shotguns, Rocket Launchers, Grenades, AI Mines, AV Mines, HEAT, HE, AP tank rounds, Halberds, AV MANA Turret, Spear AV Turrets...

    Honey, there's a list of things that can kill you with a single click of a mouse. By your logic, those would have to get removed, as well.
    Oh no, not MAXes. Most MAX weapons aren't One-Hit Kills. But you've no more grenades or Rocket Launchers to oppose them. Now what?
    • Up x 1
  13. Campagne

    Well, the one true limiting factor of snipers is the fairly steep skill requirement to be a real, deadly threat.

    One could always just pull an ESF or roll up to them in a tank if they're really annoying, as they would be literally 100% incapable or realistically defending themselves.

    Removing cloak for snipers is a terrible, terrible idea though. Without cloak there just simply aren't any snipers. Couldn't do anything without being murdered immediately by tanks, other snipers, random infantry, anything and everything!

    Stalker with a Blackhand would become the new sniper, and they can be quite deadly and very elusive as well.
    • Up x 4
  14. LordKrelas

    Considering how easy it is to see someone running around at a distance, let alone when firing a sniper rifle...
    Without cloak, those snipers would be killed off by LMG's, other snipers, and similar before getting to their spots.
    Not to mention, the counter to snipers is: Cover, Other Snipers, Buildings, distance.

    Then there's the whole aircraft, harrasser, any form of tank, quad-bike flash, surprise infantry, teams of people...
    All of which beyond the flash, and infantry can't be scratched by the sniper at all.

    Who's only prayer is to run.
    Since, even if they could fire, after the first shot, everything on the list above can, could and would kill them:
    And that is with cloak mind you.

    And without any ability to hide, with their more fragile health bar... we can just call that suicide.
    Since they fire the first shot, they just signaled exactly where to look, and without cloak to disrupt the spot..
    Just straight up dead.

    If it makes you feel better:
    An engineer with an archer is more of a dangerous thing than a normal sniper, to the above.
    As with an archer, you can damage every single type of target.

    Also, you called the Gauss Saw laser accurate.
    Good Joke.
    • Up x 1
  15. AudieSmurfy

    Well, no. You can fix that by giving them non-cloak abilities. A few ideas:
    • A decoy hologram that runs in a straight line in order to distract enemies / absorb damage.
    • A phaseshift ability that increases your run speed, makes you immune to damage, and makes you transparent (not invisible), but renders you unable to fire during and shortly after the duration.
    • An ability that grants you thermal vision (the old kind that highlights infantry) for a short duration.
    They could also add variety to the cloaks since they would all behave like stalker cloak. A few examples:
    • A cloak that has no shields, but allows you to remain in deep cloak at all times.
    • A cloak that has no shields, but has infinite fuel.
    • A cloak that only has 200 shields, but has no recharge delay.
    And so on...

    There's a very big difference between a large, obvious tank and a small target that can turn invisible and one-shot you out to render range.
    • Up x 1
  16. LordKrelas

    Useless to a sniper really.
    As if they are looking at that, they likely already destroyed it, before you have managed to escape.
    Or you just have that, while being hunted in the hills..

    Phaseshift, the invulnerable escape.

    Thermal Scope, without a weapon. Joy.

    And these cloaks are down right disturbing.

    Ghost Capper from hell, and ultimate killer.

    The second one: The best cloak for hidding for all eternity.
    Or forcing a point to be contested for an entire day.

    The glory of a cloak that just never stops giving.

    Yeah, a Tank can't be scratched by a standard bullet.
    A sniper has to work with specific angles, must get to that distance, find you, and then land the mystical head shot.
    Which isn't easy to even get into position, let alone account for bullet drop.
    Nor is it easy, to hit the smallest part of the human body at such ranges...
    Let alone if the target actually has the brain to use cover, and.... move a centimeter.

    A sniper can not account for the cover of an area.
    They have a limited firing angle from their spot, which they literally state the position of, after a single shot.
    A tree, a rock, a wall, any vehicle, or even movement blocks the one-hit kill shot.

    Not to mention, if actually engaged, or located, which isn't hard... they are easy to kill.
    The other means to survive is to cloak.

    Your tricks literally would stop the player hunting the sniper for all of a second if that.
    As a decoy, unless it has more health, and erratic movement would die fast in a straight line.
    Also would be state exactly where the sniper fired it off from.

    And if it didn't die as easily, well then you know a sniper was there.
    Rather than being undetected, You gave them the ultimate "I'M OVER HERE"
    If they didn't move from there, all you need to do, is simply search for the highly visible sniper..
    Whom unless they can manage a head-shot at close range, would need their sidearm.
    And actually to win, with less health, without proper surprise, against a target hunting them.

    Or use the phaseshift of yours, and literally be invulnerable while contesting a point.
    While getting into knife range...
    While escaping, allowing them to literally scout out people, run invulnerable away, spotting everyone.

    Or run over land mines, while completely immune to harm...
    Or lure opponents over land mines, while being untouched by the lethal explosion under their feet.

    Or the glory of thermal vision without needing to have a specific scope..
    With it being basically on every gun they have.
    Spotting Heaven.

    Or we can just let them have their several seconds-long cloak, and not deal with the above.
    • Up x 3
  17. Erendil

    No, they would require significantly more skill to play effectively though.

    As someone who has played the role of sniper since Launch as an HA or Engie w/ a battle rifle, I can assure you that neither a cloak nor OHK ability are required.

    Case in Point. If you can outshoot snipers with the Warden, you can snipe with it too. OHK and cloak are not needed.
  18. BartasRS

    If you state such things at least be precise.
    First, 1000m is about triple the distance between typical bases on Indar. I did check this on other occasion.

    Second, this is way beyond render range for infantry so it is impossible to be sniped at that distance and even if it was possible it would mean the victim was AFK for like 2 mins (kinda hard to precisely hit 1 pixel target).

    Third, no sniper rifle can OHK at that distance, at 500m maybe other infil will die from HS but no other class and I even doubt that.

    Finally, sure, you can miss 15 shots but if it takes you 15 shots to hit (most probably not kill) a target it means you're in deep **** coz of lack of ammo. OFC VS can use Phaseshift BUT it won't OHK anyone beyond 325m in BA mode.

    Now, usefull range for sniping will be about 250m and that is the distance at which no sniper is safe from:
    - other snipers
    - LAs hunting for snipers and sunderers
    - turrets of various kind
    - vehicles
    - determined players who want to kill that annoying bolt sh!tters

    We also need to remeber that getting in good spot for sniping takes time, cuts you from resupply/heal AND you can be immediately OHK by other sniper. You know, some spots are so obvious that I often blindly shoot and get a kill coz I know a sniper will be there.
    Personally, as sniper main, I have tons of fun shooting people from one base to the other BUT even if I kill some people it is mostly because they are AFK, stand still for long time or just plain unexperienced. Does it help my side win? Rarely! Most I can hope for is to delay some vehicle deployment, kill a spitty, Engi on turret or eliminate other snipers. At that distance it is even impossible to kill enemy mines even tho I can spot them!

    No matter how good your spot is or how far it is from enemy lines eventually someone WILL kill you, always.
    • Up x 1
  19. 1917

    Infiltrators do nothing in this game except run around with SMGs or camp far away with sniper rifles. They're a class that's supposed to be a support unit but instead acts like a front line combat troop. They personify everything wrong with Planetside as it stands, which is why they're an object which is universally hated by everyone who doesn't play it. I don't know a single player who never plays Infiltrator that thinks they're a positive contribution to the game. You can theorycraft all you want but if everyone else hates you and sees you as an unfun mechanic then you're bad for the game, end of.

    Let's take a look at a few problems that Infiltrators currently cause.

    1. They wreck the new player experience

    When someone first comes into this game they're expecting large scale, team orientated gameplay. They run out of the spawn, get behind cover and they get shot in the head by an Infiltrator who's camping a few hundred meters away that they can't see or understand how to counter. Repeat endlessly until they quit. Repeat for every new player.

    Alternatively, that new player stays around and learns one of two things(or both). Firstly, that they can get in on the action and become another invisible ******* sniping people from across the map. Secondly, that infantry sucks and that they should camp in a vehicle instead.

    That people think "Get in a vehicle" or "snipe them back" is a solution is indicative of an individualistic, narrow, non-systemic mindset. That answer tells us that these people think every class other than inifiltrator should be useless. It's quite incredible, really. It also ignores the currently existing problem that the proliferation of vehicles in this game is cutting across gameplay in a really bad way, and encouraging more of that is telling of just how out of touch the advocates for Infiltrator-as-is are.

    2. Cloaker SMGs

    The second major problem with Infiltrators is that they've been transformed into the most absurd frontline combat troop possible. Let me preface; I have no problem with Infiltrators being able to use SMGs. In fact it makes sense. My problem is that Infiltrators have these very effective primary weapons and can run around using them while they still have a cloak equipped.

    As everyone who plays infantry in this game knows, assuming equal skill, that 99/100 times a fight is decided by who gets the drop on someone. The TTKs in this game are very low. If I see and shoot you first you will almost certainly lose, often without time to react. A cloaker SMG is designed to always get the drop on their opponent. This is self-evidently problematic, it makes the Infiltrator easily vie for the position of best combat troop in the game - certainly it is the most annoying one. This is a bad mechanic and it was incredibly poorly thought out by a developer who either had no playtime in this game or whose playtime consisted solely of killfarming.

    How can we solve this?

    I don't want to hear the "Well just do X better" nonsense from tryhards. New players don't even know what X is, let alone how to do it better. PS2 is supposed to be an MMO and that means retention of new players is key. How about instead of making everything so simple and samey that the new players can excuse themselves from the team aspect or logistics and strategy and organisation(looking at you, Redployside), we eliminate things which actively unfun and drive new players away? If that means infiltrators getting a bat taken to them, damn right I'm for it.

    Well simply put there needs be a redesign of the class. It wouldn't be too difficult, either. People shudder at the word "redesign" but frankly the changes the Infiltrator need are quite small, in terms of workload. Make Infiltrators choose between a primary weapon and a cloak. In exchange, give the Infil a broader support role so that people actually understand that it's a support class and that if they want to do nothing but rack up kills they should go Heavy Assault. On that point, there have been ideas floating around about how to make Infils better for years. Revisit them.

    An additional change I'd make is to lower the damage modifier on headshots across the board for every weapon, which would deal with one shot kill snipers and increase the TTK more broadly which would improve infantry play drastically.
    • Up x 2
  20. LordKrelas

    I don't know how you came to the conclusion that the lowest health class is a front-line trooper from a camouflage device.
    As they die quicker, and easier, the moment they aren't attacking; And that is attacking from ambush.
    As in a straight fight, your infil will just straight up die to a heavy, light assault, engineer or medic.

    Fun Fact: I don't main infil, but I like Infils.
    They find targets, threats, and eliminate them either from a distance or up close with an SMG while scouting.
    IE sensor Darts, and motion sensors.

    Of the examples people gave, sure there is vehicles & snipers.
    And of course, which was apparently skipped over, was basically every infantry class hunting them down.

    A Heavy with an overshield, that appears to be an un-killable god can achieve the same effect.
    As can a MAX.
    Or any vehicle.
    As Good luck fighting as a rookie against any skilled opponent without thinking "THAT'S ********"

    Not to mention, Infils aren't the only ones who can head-shot.
    I do it, with an archer to infantry, and basically every single gun.

    A cloaked SMG user needs that ambush, or to get the first burst.
    You have a slightly harder-to-see solider, that can not fire while in such a state, with less health, and a close-ranged weapon.
    If that's front-line, I should introduce the Heavy, who has a full secondary shield that recharges, with a wide range of weapons.
    It comes with a rocket-launcher,a SMG\LMG\Shotgun of your choosing & sidearm.

    99% is kinda not accurate.
    Only if their aim is on target, and the target's isn't better, does it truly get that %.
    Case in Point: Commissioner takes 2 shots to the head, or less.

    A squishy solider, with a SMG, can't engage a room like a Heavy or MAX can.
    So I'd say, those best a one-trick-pony.

    Your idea is to make every infil unable to cloak, unless they are a stalker.
    Pray you never need to escape a target, or want to use that SMG on an Infil like that.
    Or hell, take a second shot with your sniper rifle.

    If you ever make it to your spot in the first place.

    What in blazes, could an Infil do as a support class without cloak exactly?
    They have darts & sensors, Good luck placing the motion sensors.
    The Sniper rifles provide extended range suppression fire at worst; That is support.
    Use a sidearm, or a sniper rifle \ smg, which if you actually take a shot with the first will die moments later.
    If you use the second, you will die to the opponent's superior supply of health given you can't surprise all that well.

    Making the hard-shot that it is, less effective...
    Just makes DPS more superior, IE aim rewarded less, simply firing more rewarded more.
    IE NC screwed, TR & VS vie for whom is the victor.

    Which isn't all that entertaining, just more "More Bullets = Victory, accuracy don't mean crap"
    • Up x 7