No Bullet Drop for VS, is it enough?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Ruchalus, Feb 23, 2015.

  1. moriarrr-ceres

    For example a NS11/a/c/m is more accurate at range than most of our guns (and .75 ads speed....) A lots of Vanu players use these guns mainly for these reasons.
  2. Ballto21

    not my preference, its the opinion of the community and how well they were preforming. I say were as they were changed today. Lets see if that makes them any better
    This is the default TR camo. As you can see it is mostly grey with white trim, some red accents.

    The grey blends in nicely in dim light everywhere. No exception. The white blends in very nicely on Indar and Esamir, looking like dark snow/ice patches.
    The red are very small accents virtually invisible at all ranges camo makes a difference.
    Here we see a VS infantry unit in VR. Hard to see, but you can still see him.
    Here we see a TR in VR. I can see him about as well as i can see the VS, maybe a bit more but there is more light in this part of VR. Still difficult while hes not moving if it werent for the triangle.

    This is a screenshot taken in VR on my terran republic alt, using the T5 AMC with a 3.4x scope and forward grip. No other attachments. As you can see by rangefinder, its at 23 meters. A common engagement range for infantry. If i were to shoot (and i did) it would hit the head.
    Heres one at 40 meters. Another common engagement distance. No significant bullet drop, still hit the head.
    60 meters. Most would only engage with SASRs or BRs, but if grounds flat id engage with a automatic using burst fire. Still headshots aiming dead center.
    75 meters. Most would never engage this far out unless they were using a weapon designed for it, such as SASRs, low zoom BASRs, BRs, and some slower ROF ARs/Carbines. Still headshots dead center.
    90 meters. Almost no one would engage with a weapon not meant for this range like slow firing ARs carbines or LMGs, or SASRs BASRs or BRs. Drop kicks in enough to have to aim very mildly higher for a headshot. If i equip HVA, they do hit, however.

    Drop is meaningless almost always on all non infiltrator classes.
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  3. Prudentia

    i'm actually afraid to call you out on your mistakes, because i already got a post removed today by mods, but:
    VS didn't have more damage drop than other factions since early 2013. also the Flare is a straight downgraded NC LMG, i think it was the EM6(?)
  4. moriarrr-ceres

    yeah the flare is a downgraded version of the Em1 but at least it a good weapon. It's funny also to see people tell "omg no bullet drop" on an lmg with 650 ms 75 meters. I never noticed bullet drop at 75 meters with my paralax XD
  5. Hatesphere

    I barely even notice bullet drop on the bull.
  6. nehylen

    Downgraded SAW-S.

    The multiplier is high because VS guns tend to have less vertical recoil on standard shots and DBG's aim is to get similar first shot recoil across the board. For instance the default carbines all have 0.7° on the first shot, but in terms of vertical recoil per shot or vertical recoil over time, the Solstice is way, way better than the other 2.

    The multiplier isn't the problem. Stupid penalties are:

    • Flare: horizontal recoil+tolerance+first shot recoil (direct downgrade to SAW-S/TMG-50)
    • Ursa: horizontal recoil (worse than all other higher rpm 167dmg LMG except Flare)
    • Pulsar VS1/Equinox/Darkstar: Horizontal tolerance (different from every other default carbine/AR, including Solstice)
    • Pulsar LSW: Horizontal tolerance+CoF (doesn't fit the Pulsar VS1/Solstice archetype properly; direct downgrade to the the SVA because of it)
    • Corvus: 550-24rpm (super low RoF because reasons)
    • Zenith: 750-27rpm (lowered RoF despite stats similar to Jaguar or Carnage AR because reasons²)
    Basically the 2 last guns aren't as damaging as they should be, and all the others aren't as accurate as they should be.
  7. Prudentia

    well of course the Flare is great, after all it's the highest DPM a VS weapon can get :eek: but it's still just a downgrade to a weapon which is a downgrade to another weapon :( tough i never played with a weapon that got more random headshots by just spraying at someone... i could literally aim 10m away from someone and suddenly get a headshotkill :confused:
  8. zaspacer

    I rarely think of Factions in terms of "Empire Specific Traits". Instead, I think of them in terms of their best Loadout for each Class/Vehicle/Role.

    And on that level, VS seems fine. Though I don't know much about Maxs.

    Best bet is to list out the best Loadout for each Class/Vehicle/Role of each Faction. And see how they stack up.

    If you are purely interested in thematic implications. VS have:
    1) dark outfits
    2) robot voice packs
    3) vehicles that hover
    4) guns that go "pew pew"
    5) voice commands that mention Vanu fluff
    6) old guy telling them stuff when they take/lose a base
    7) charge mechanic
    8) no bullet drop on some stuff
    9) purple
    10) teal
    11) can't see direction of thrusters on ESF
    12) ESF cockpit has no visual obstruction
    13) ESF HUD is similar color to sky, so can be hard to see sometimes
    14) VS vehicles hum a lot (energy sound vs. engine/motor I think)
    15) many VS guns look like a fish
    16) VS doesn't have an over-the-top ES hat like NC (Cowboy) or TR (Commissar)
    17) spandex
    18) techno music
  9. qquqq

    Let me say it was hard to read this and figure out how to briefly pick apart what you said,

    Then we have hip firing, the Orion has near SMGlike hip firing.
    Have you used a smg before, this is just not true, while the hipfire is better its not that good,

    Higher DPS than NC and lower dps than the carv(bullet speed counts to dps)
    Lower DPM than NC or TR (Thus the shorter reload speed?!?!?)
    Slowest Muzzle Velocity Due to no bullet drop balance.... as you said
    No Bullet Drop
    Mediocre recoil control between TR and NC (TR lower slightly, NC higher a bit) (Wha?)
    Best CQC Most definitely, and absolutely trash further than 40 yards, cof bloom is insane,
    Fastest Reload Half the bullets,

    So after all that. The TR and VS default LMG's are pretty balanced against one another. Its a matter of playstyle. NC is lagging behind simply because its DPS is the lowest. A simple Rate of Fire increase would help there and perhaps a reduction in mag size to offset it (to like 75 to put it in-between TR and VS). Many people have said that the gd-22s should be the starting lmg, the gauss saw is too unwieldy for a new player, and the gd-22s is a great weapon maybe the best lmg in game 100 certs.

    There's even more factors, as in many more weapons in each empires' arsenals. As well as weapon attachments and how each weapon plays in group settings (as in multiple people using a certain weapon). The point I am making is you CANNOT look at a SINGLE faction trait in a Vacuum. My eyes don't work in space. they EsPlOdE. by the way the flash that comes off the Orion is so bad that I run a flash suppressor on mine,,,,, a not so minor detail people tend to forget,

    Cause if you do that. I can prove VS no bullet drop is OP. They have it, TR and NC don't and VS wins more alerts. Done. Doesn't make sense right? Yeah it doesn't. So start looking at the whole picture. really? I play all 3 factions, and while some weapons (serpent) are a bit stronger than they should be, its not because of no bullet drop, you could say that the weapons require less skill and therefore they are powerful for unskilled players, you could question the wisdom of the orion having a movement speed multiplier. which i think is your point, but your not saying that your saying the orions ads speed is the reason no bullet drop is "op".
  10. Rentago

    we don't even have that anymore, most of our weapons feature bullet drop, the only ones that would benefit from it (shotguns and sniper rifles) have bullet drop.

    The idea was, we have a much earlier damage drop, but in exchange our bullets don't arc over distance. We'd still have cone of fire and all that jazz, but if a guy was 200 meters away and you were popping shots then aiming above him was not gonna be a factor.

    It was fair and balanced idea that also made VS unique from the conventional firearms, but what we instead got was purple TR assault rifles.

    and NC got TR and VS guns because they couldn't figure out magnets.

    TR are as call of duty as it gets.
  11. Goretzu

    It "kills more" than any other LMG (other directive one, best performing ones otherwise) no matter how you look at it (Q4, BR100 only KPH, KPU, etc.), not by a bit either, but by double.

    Every other LMG<------------------------------------------>Betel is how it stands, and no one can really explain why, because all of the above arguements don't explain it when they are examined! :confused:
  12. Taemien

    You missed the entire point. I wasn't trying to say they were balanced lol. In fact I even said towards the end I can show how the Gauss SAW can totally Overpower both the Orion and the Carv (a situation that CAN win alerts for the faction, but like I said, it would derail the entire thread so I choose not to show it, if you want to hear it, feel free to make another thread on it).

    The point I was making is that you can't look at ONE TRAIT in a VACUUM. As the OP has been doing. You just picked apart what I said for nothing. Should read the entire post next time.
  13. Reclaimer77

    LOL@ the NC and TR on this thread.

    Yeah bullet drop is soooo important when 99% of all engagements in this game are under 10 yards, and the control points are all indoors...
  14. Moonheart

    True enough.

    Let's *imagine* the no-drop makes the VS weapon better at very long range (which is more than debatable already, but let's imagine it): This is not even an issue unless you proove that VS weapons are also better at close or medium range.
    If they are not, it means that one faction is better at long range, and one other faction better at other range, and thus, the overall situation will stay balanced.

    Overall, it's hard to speak about balance when looking only at a local trait or aspect of the game. That's why I do prefer to look at overall results:
    - First, unless a faction actualy clearly dominate the conquests on most of the servers, there is no point to ask any nerf to any of its tools. Because even if this faction have a really good one, if it doesn't dominate despite of it, this means that other factions get better tools elsewhere that compensate for it.
    - Second, assuming a faction dominate the conquest on most of the servers, a tool do not need a nerf if it doesn't get better statistical results than the other faction counterpart. For exemple, as suprising as some TR/NC people would think, the old PPA was getting weaker statistical results than the Canister.

    That's a problem of "perception": what people feel to be right.... and "facts": what mathematicaly measurable results show.

    I could say it more bluntly: Any player that ask a nerf to something that have poor statistical results because he "feels" its too good, without checking the available statistical results... is an idiot that slowly kill the game.

    That's the case of every people who whine about the no-drop.
    First, VS is not currently dominating other factions. Second, most of no-drop weapons actualy sucks compared to their counterparts.
  15. Thovargh

  16. Hatesphere

    I love how people use alert tracker like it means anything. I still don't see an option to filter the alerts by prime time or population level, no stats on how many platoons were running on each faction for each alert, no really use full data. . So all that really shows is alerts won, not any other useful data to make remarks about the VS being op.
  17. Takara

    My biggest issue with this don't really change the way you fight each empire. With the single exception of NC AI maxs. You pretty much fight VS the way you fight TR and the same way you fight NC.

    There is so littler difference between fractions. NC should have the hardest hitting shotguns, TR should have the best LMG for suppression and damage output, VS should have the best hit and run weapons. (Or possibly long range weapons since they like to make us sneaky cloakers in all the artworks)
  18. Moonheart

    A nice statistic that is largely due to the awful situation on Emerald at prime time, where VS dominate in both population and organization and win every alert.

    That's why I said "on most server...": you have to currently be careful when looking at conquest cross-server due to what is happening on that sole server.
    Last time I seriously checked, on most servers, VS was not dominating. I could have changed however, but you have to seriously analyze the data and not just look at a single number and draw quick conclusions like you do. Like most TR/NC do.

    Balance is a more complicated matter than this.

    Another proof that people like you don't seriously analyze the data before drawing conclusions.

    The Betelgeuse is only one of the weapon of the VS arsenal, and the rarest of all in addition.
    Is it proof in any way that our traits are good?

    No, it's not. There are plenty of our weapons, the vast majority in fact, who have those traits and that actualy underperform comparing to the TR/NC "equivalant" with TR/NC traits neverless.... If those traits were that OP, that should be the inverse: the vast majority of those weapons should win against their counterparts, which is not the case.

    By throwing this statistics and this ironical comment of "But just go on about how your taits are worse than everything else and clearly need a buff", you just bring another proof of the sade and nocive attitude of many TR/NC players.
    You do not make a serious analysis, you take a local fact, without looking at the whole, global, scheme, and make it a biased argument used to spite on VS and scorn at VS players opinions. Just because you have the "impression" that no-drop is good.

    I'll tell you again it to you: Actualy, the VS players doesn't care at all if the no-drop is removed, or given to all their opponents.
    Because we know, after a long use of it, how pityful the influence of this trait has on the battle results.

    What makes us angry is not that you ask it to be nerfed, but that you call us "easy mode" for something like that.
    Don't you think you are overating your own skills, thinking that if we didn't havea trait that make us not needed to aim 3pixels higher at 120m with a non-BASR weapon to hit your head, you would win more against us?
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  19. qquqq

    "*There's more traits than that of course. But to keep things short. I left them out. This isn't to prove with bias that one faction is better than another, since my point isn't to show that. Its merely to show there is way more than one trait per faction."
    Is this your redeemer? yes I failed to see your claim thus my saying it is hard to pick apart what your trying to proove, I dont see more than one weapon trait, i see many diferent weapons which follow a theeme.

    However as the question "No Bullet Drop for VS, is it enough?" was in a vacuum. the expanded question would view ( is no bullet drop enough to compete with more/faster bullets. or the hardes hitting bullets)

    The hard answer is simpler, no bullet drop is a flavor of weapon, more/faster bullets is a flavor of weapon. harder hitting/slower is a flavor of weapon. they all do compatible dps and dmg per mag, on paper.

    But the subjective question is does no bullet drop feel like a real trait. which only the community can answer in their own opinions.

    I may have stumbled figuring out your point (which I don't think was my fault as the reader) but you helped me find mine.
  20. Moonheart

    I don't feel personnaly that we need more that this no-drop trait, even if it's currently pityful.

    I said earlier that too much TR/NC players ask for nerf/buff without looking at actual statistics. That if a faction doesn't dominate on most servers, it doesn't deserve a nerf at all.
    That means also the inverse: since us, VS, are not dominated on most servers, we also don't deserve a buff.
    Bringing a new faction trait would up a good chunk of our arsenal, thing we do not need currently.

    I do understand that most of my fellow VS would like to have a trait that feels currently much more useful.
    Point is: From what I hear from TR/NC, they feel the same about their own faction traits.
    So the matter is currently balanced: the traits of the three factions are currently all barely useful at all, and are more like "flavoring" to the arsenal that a true aspect of balance.