No Bullet Drop for VS, is it enough?

http://planetside.wikia.com/wiki/T9_CARV
http://planetside.wikia.com/wiki/Orion_VS54
a 0.12-0.13 difference in shake
Fair enough

The gauss SAW and the 200 damage carbine are decent because of high damage if you can aim for the head

NS-11C, NS-11A , NS-15 have the best weapon handling. The low recoil is user friendly, the increased mag size makes the weapon forgiving. On the other hand the accuracy is not user-friendly (spraying is easier than being accurate) and the low dps is not forgiving (you have to make every bullet count).

So nothing is as simple as "VS are more forgiving and noob friendly". Low recoil weapon are user friendly but not forgiving. Small mag weap' are not forgiving. Big mags are forgiving, dps is forgiving. So if you wanted to caricature you would say that the TR is forgiving, while the VS is user-friendly. The NC has a bit of everything in their weapon selection.

No Bullet Drop only matters if you play NC or TR exclusively and you've never bothered to take a VS character to BR20. I'd love to have 10 more bullets per clip on VS Carbines like TR, or to have 167-200 damage monster carbines like NC. The Razor is amazingly accurate at long range for a 167 damage weapon.

The grass is always greener, and No Bullet Drop does sound like an awesome trait, but i'd happily exchange it for faster reloads.

The RailJack is the only No Bullet Drop sniper rifle in the game, and don't even pretend that the .2 second firing delay is anywhere close to the PhaseShifts charge and release mechanic.

most players also aren't tired 7 year old girls who stayed up past bedtime to sneak to the pc of their parents to play Planetside for the first time.
on average, the average player is pretty average...

didnt they up how much the railjack drops to have the same drop rate as an EM4?

Maybe? But it's velocity offsets it enough to where it simply doesn't matter. Hop into VR and check it out yourself. It's amazingly insane, and no wonder I see plenty of <BR20 players running around with the RailJack, unlike the TRAP or PhaseShift. I know NC is sad they got "just another sniper rifle", but the reality is that they got the best sniper rifle in the game and they don't want you to know it.

Must. Resist. Urge. To. Make. Phaseshift rebuttal.

I would like to see the alternate shotgun mode brought back though. I think it was going to be what the mag scatter is now with slightly more damage/shot

Which is (yet again) a nonsense arguement because anything that boost a weapons useability is always going to have much more effect than having a very high skill ceiling (as the performance stats show).

The reality is anyone that genuinely cannot aim (as in your "example" ) isn't going to do well with any PS2 weapon, but VS weapons are often pretty user friendly (on balance) to the average player.

They are pretty good if you can 100% head shot....... yet even there it would seem the NC6 SAW isn't actually that good.

NS weapons are, certainly, however they tend to have lower DPS however as well.

NC weapon selection is pretty much the same as (but opposite of) TR weapon selection:

All this talk of who has the better trait is giving me a headache...

Look, if you're not packing a silencer onto every plasma spewing automatic, the no-drop trait is negligible. VS do have the better recoils among their ARs and Carbines, among the faster if not fastest reloads, and yes, they do have superior muzzle velocities to the TR. LMGs typically have tighter hip CoF and the VS do have the .75x ADS LMGs. Besides that, LMGs seem to be samey between the empires.

VS weapons tend to be reliable, but middle-road. They don't exactly stand out, but they don't fail either.

The TR have extra rounds in their rifles and carbines, but typically live with greater recoil per shot, longer reloads, and generally the crappiest muzzle velocities, but the differences within weapon types are like 10-20m/s so... debatably negligible. Even with a silencer on a carbine, you're unlikely to notice the drop within standard engagement distance, but it still hurts. Exceptions exist. TR are built for assault and CQC by default. Coincidentally, a foregrip nullifies most issues with recoil. Actually, TR rifles and carbines in general don't shine until after attachments are added. Go CQC, they dominate. Go ranged, they're very competitive in that field. They're flexible where builds are concerned, but inflexible in the field. Even a Carv with a laser can be a beast within 15m. One word: "denmaku."

Basically, before attachments, TR guns are "meh." After attachments, they're above par, but only really in the field of engagement they're set up for.

NC have probably the higher skill floor, but also the highest skill ceiling, and the greatest variety of guns, plus access to uniques in the Reaper DMR, AC-X11, and the SAW. Beyond that, their wide weapon selection means they have a solution for just about any situation. Any gun that mimics another empire's weapon typically falls short of that weapon though, though they find a strength in another way (example, EM1 to T16 Rhino, Carnage AR to T1 Cycler.)

NC weapons are more for shooter enthusiasts than newbs. In the hands of said newb, they're laughable. In the hands of a skilled opponent, scary as ****. Some weapons direly need kit to perform well at all, mind.

It's the best trait, but it does make the VS "easy mode".

The scout rifles are particularly lovely; even silenced, there's no bullet drop; so it's one less variable to account for in battle.

Anyone who says no bullet drop on carbines and LMGs and scout rifles isn't the best advantage to have... they are completely deluding themselves, it makes gameplay way easier; whether your style is to aim or the spray and pray, either way your bullets are going exactly where the sights send them with little deviation.

Of course, my favourite trait is that the Spectre sounds like a small whip when fired.

I'd rather have more Lashers than Orions. I think that's saying something.

There are only a few weapons that make good use of the trait, the lancer, the battle rifle Eidolon VE33 and directives one,
not that battle rifles are viable. semi and bust mechanics = broken, and the lancer well, it is the only effective infantry weapon against air they all need to be buffed to its capability, kinda sad really.
apart from that the lower bullet speed is more of a pain. as on most weapons, carbines etc leading a target is alot more difficult than compensating for drop,

The weapons that truly would benefit from it are the sniper rifles, the tank weapons, but of course vs tanks have the worst bullet drop as their speed is too low,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Thats not to say VS doesn't have some strong weapons, the serpent and the orion are uncharacteristically (faction wise) strong in the game,

to answer the question is it enough? I don't know, most tr weapons don't really mater that their rof is higher and their lmgs don't see the same ammo bonus that their other weapons do. their mbt and chain guns on the other hand are far Superior to alternatives,

The NC have harder hitting weapons, I have found that the ability to place a few shots to kill your target lowers their reaction time and damage per mag is at par with the other factions or better, the biggest down side is people can dance and make you miss, it feels like a trait well rounded trait, except for the phoenix how s that a thing? its fun dont get me wrong but no.

You only need to get two headshots and a bodyshot against any class, and 5 body shots against any class, granted this lowers the dpps of the saw on bodyshots by about 100 compared to the carv and orion, but its slower, more manageable rof, if you can account for vertical recoil, makes pulling off 50m range headshots easy with a 2X or 3.4X scope

I think that since i see more people between BR 1-25 using the saw. 26-60 using the anchor or em6 or the ns-1fm, then gauss saw numbers pick up again after awhile its skewed by use, considering the orion is i think currently the most used lmg in game and the carv close behind (citation needed)

this isnt me saying nc players are bad, its me saying the saw doesnt see much use.

No, actualy, the best one is the TRAP, as shown by those statistics.
http://ps2oraclestats.com/?stat=kph&weapon1=7337&weapon2=7301&weapon3=73161

No drop have no use before 125m, and after 125m with a BASR, your main issue is to aim fast enough to hit your target before it starts to move again, or change direction, and not to aim well enough (aim with a BASR is ridiculously easy: no recoil problem, huge scoping, almost no spread...)

A player that have a realy fast aim can even headshot you with a BASR at CQC range.

My bet is, if every sniper rifle of the game got no-drop, it wouldn't change much to the number of kills they do.

While your stats are correct and accurate, the usual explanation for this is that the VS and NC options are true sniper rifles, while the TR got some kind of battle rifle. The TRAP is simply going to perform better because it isn't used for long-range, slow, precise shots.

That being said, if your measurement for "best" is "kills the most in the least amount of time", then yes the TRAP is the best ESSR.

But if you define "best" as "can kill enemies from extreme range" then the TRAP isn't so great of a ESSR.

It's just very hard to compare all three ESSRs (or at least the TRAP to anything else) because the usages are very different. Really SOE should release Gen II of the ESSRs, giving the NC their medium-range sniper-shotgun, the VS some kind of medium-range rifle, and the TR ought to get a long-range ESSR as well. Then all three factions will have both medium and long-range ESSRs.

I don't know why this kind of thread keeps popping up. Its like you all only see bar graphs showing damage, mag size, and that's it. There's a ton of other stats that give each faction their respective 'traits'.

TR

T9 CARV

Fire Rate: 750RPM
Muzzle velocity: 600m/s
Damage: 143
Reload: 5.4s/6.2s
Mag size: 100

VS

Orion VS54

Fire Rate: 750RPM
Muzzle velocity: 570m/s
Damage: 143
Reload: 3.28s/3.655s
Mag size: 50

NC

NC6 Gauss SAW

Fire Rate: 500RPM
Muzzle velocity: 600m/s
Damage: 200
Reload: 6.5s/7.5s
Mag size: 100

On paper, the VS looks somewhat lacking. Somewhat.. buts lets look at what the stats really show:

Both the TR and VS default LMGs have the same damage and fire rates. And those equate to a higher DPS (which means faster TTK). That DPS is 1787.5. While the NC's LMG does 1666.67 DPS. What does this mean? It means one to one, a NC heavy is going to drop faster in most engagements with their VS/TR counterparts. Buff NC LMGs right?

But what about TR vs VS. The TR have more velocity and magazine size. Nerf TR to VS level and buff NC to VS level right? Wrong... there's more. One could argue that the muzzle velocity IS offset by the no bullet drop.. and for ranges out to 100-200 it does. But that doesn't even matter because those ranges aren't effective for either weapon.

The reason is recoil and cone of fire. COF is roughly the same for both weapons while ADSing. But recoil is where it gets interesting. Vertical recoil is the same on both weapons. The first shot recoil modifier is a little worse on the Orion, the Carv's horizontal recoil is more predictable than the Orion, but on average is the same. But the Orion recovers a bit faster.

Then we have hip firing, the Orion has near SMGlike hip firing. The CARV.. don't do it. In addition the Orion has a .75x ADS movement modifier. Which means up close the Orion has superior mobility.

So here's the traits on the VS with default LMGs at least*:

Higher DPS than NC
Lower DPM than NC or TR
Slowest Muzzle Velocity
No Bullet Drop
Mediocre recoil control between TR and NC (TR lower slightly, NC higher a bit)
Best CQC
Fastest Reload

So after all that. The TR and VS default LMG's are pretty balanced against one another. Its a matter of playstyle. NC is lagging behind simply because its DPS is the lowest. A simple Rate of Fire increase would help there and perhaps a reduction in mag size to offset it (to like 75 to put it inbetween TR and VS).

There's even more factors, as in many more weapons in each empires' arsenals. As well as weapon attachments and how each weapon plays in group settings (as in multiple people using a certain weapon). The point I am making is you CANNOT look at a SINGLE faction trait in a Vacuum.

Cause if you do that. I can prove VS no bullet drop is OP. They have it, TR and NC don't and VS wins more alerts. Done. Doesn't make sense right? Yeah it doesn't. So start looking at the whole picture.

*There's more traits than that of course. But to keep things short. I left them out. This isn't to prove with bias that one faction is better than another, since my point isn't to show that. Its merely to show there is way more than one trait per faction.

Or more likely theorycrafting NC6 SAW headshots doesn't equate with the reality of getting headshots with the NC6 SAW in-game.

Which is, as mentioned, sort of the opposite of many VS weapons.

Most experienced people give up with the NC6 SAW because they accept what it is, a good long range so-so every other range LMG. I've almost never found an instance in close or mid range where I'd not rather have an Anchor or EM6 (even post nerf) as there is no way you're pulling off 50m range headshots better than with an Anchor or EM6, especially becaue the NC6 SAW requires you to plink AND be stationary (as the moving accuracy is bad - again a vast difference between theory and reality) than an NC6 SAW, it is also a horrendous newbie weapon too, of course.

fair enough, ill admit an em1 would be a better newbie weapon (in my opinion since its not godawful, or at least not as godawful as people say as a medium range lmg that could maybe benefit from a rof increase)