[Suggestion] Nimitz Reactor, one year later...

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Liewec123, Aug 28, 2020.

  1. Liewec123

    Today, August 28th 2020 marks exactly one year since the 3 faction MBTs received updates,

    Magrider's received their Magburner as baseline,
    and also slot options to drastically decrease its recharge and allow for omnidirectional boosting.

    Prowler received the Rampart Shield, which can be really handy (or just fun)
    in certain niche roles. (i like to use it to defend sunderers in the garages)

    but vanguard...vanguard received what is essentially a 2150 cert version of Nanite Auto Repair
    that only repairs 20% of the tank's HP. (albeit ever-so-slightly faster.)

    many of us were waiting for a buff or a rework, but it never came,
    what has became known as "Numbnutz reactor" was simply forgotten, dead on arrival.
    so a year later i think its time for the devs to do something about it! :)

    different suggestions i've seen:
    instead of replacing health, the shield is simply added on top like a sundy deploy shield.
    the shield constantly regenerates slowly, effectively working as small damage mitigation.
    the shield replaces more health, and the delay before recharge is dramatically decreased.
    the shield is buffed in some way and made baseline.

    personally i do feel that the shield would be a good candidate to be made baseline,
    because on that day last year, when magrider was given magburner by default,
    vanguard became the only MBT without an innate ability, all magrider have magburner,
    all prowlers have lockdown, it is only fair if all vanguards have something too!

    it isn't practical to give all vanguards Forward Shield,
    because that would cause complications with the ability slot using the same button,
    so a passive shield seems like a good candidate!

    anyone else have any ideas how to mane "numbnutz reactor" somewhat useful? XD

    as promised i've posted this over on reddit too! (so devs might actually see it.)
    • Up x 5
  2. Blam320

    Vehicles in PS1 all had shields similar to how Infantry have them in PS2 now. Granting *all* vehicles a small amount of shield and reworking Nimitz reactor to either increase that shield pool or allow it to recharge quicker/in combat might work. That then removes worry about chip damage from terrain and increases survivability against C4 if we don't want to nerf its potency against infantry. It also means vehicles are harder to kill across the board, so resistances and damage values may need to be played with.
    • Up x 2
  3. Botji

    Ah yes, all MBTs have 6000 health after all.
    For any NC player reading, no, they have 5000 health and the Vanguard comes with a +1000 baseline bonus.

    Its just 125 health away from completely eating up a Magrider FPC hit and does eat up a Prowler AP hit with 100 health to spare(though TR gets another shot so TR OP as usual ;P ). It might not seem like much but that extra health combined with the forward shield means you can facetank 2 rounds of shots from both the main gun and 2nd gunner(halberd) and still have more health left than a full health Magrider.

    I do 100% agree that the Nimitz should get one or two looks at, though im also 100% sure it can NOT be any increased bonus for either offense or defense because the Vanguard would be a true raid boss then.

    A Vanguard with HEAT and Enforcer can throw out enough damage to kill ~1,5 MBTs during the 8 second shield, seems kinda hard to improve the tank even more without making it even more bonkers than it already is but who knows, the Prowler is still a level above imo so it depends on what we would use as the 'norm'.
  4. Liewec123

    i can't decide if you're saying "the extra health is the vanguards ability!" or not XD
    but it kinda seems that way, so i'll give the same response that i gave on reddit,
    a stat increase is not an ability, just as magriders have a recoil value of zero and prowlers have a shots per reload of two.
    these aren't abilities they are juat numbers.
    but Magburner is an ability, Lockdown is an ability, it is only fair that Vanguards get something unique too.
    it has been a whole year that 2 MBTs have abilities and 1 doesn't.
    about time vanguard got something, yes? :)
    • Up x 1
  5. Botji

    Its kinda silly to even call the boost a 'free' ability, sure, its free but if you want to get any real use out of it you have to dump your Defensive slot(Multi Directional, not just boost forward) and when you have already bet so much on the 'free' ability you almost have to get the Recharge ability so your tank isnt crap after you have used the boost for the entire full second that it has charge for. Suddenly the 'free' ability is taking up two very important slots on the tank and its still extremely dependant on your player skill to actually get anything out of it and very few are good enough to dodge 2/3 shots to even bring it up to the efficiency as the Vanguard shield is by taking a single hit on the front.

    Yes, a single hit on the front Vanguard shield is more than twice as effective as Fire Suppression and kinda similar to a Magrider dodging 2/3 shots(as in, slightly better than this). The Vanguard shield has enough duration to take 3 hits from a FPC(Magrider AV gun) which means the Magrider would have to dodge 6/9 shots to compare to the shields damage reduction.

    You want the Vanguard to have something more, as well as keep the 1000hp advantage it has?
    When was the last time you were fighting a Magrider that only got hit by 3 out of 9 shots that you fired and you still thought it was the Vanguard that was lacking something?

    Im not against the Vanguard getting a 'free' ability but if it does there needs to be nerfs on other things since its already really really good with just the shield. Cant really let it have a shield that only takes the ability slot, needs a single button and keeping your front at the enemy to be just as good if not better than what Magrider has using both the Defensive and Ability slot + very skilled driver to even make it comparable to the shield, throwing in another free ability for the Vanguard would be insane.

    If you want the Vanguard to be more equal to the Magrider in abilities, then we could give the Vanguard the shield for free but its only the weak side shields it gets, if you want it to be actually useful you need to put the "Forward Shield Module" in your Defensive slot. Oh, the shield only lasts for 4 seconds so if you want to increase it to 8 seconds you need to put the "Shield Efficiency Module" in your ability slot which lets you refresh your shield energy once every 40 seconds or something.

    There, now your Vanguard also has a 'free' ability it can use!
  6. Liewec123

    i have always, ALWAYS ran my maggy with fire suppression and NAR, (with the side to side frame so i can dodge shots.)
    so when i was given magburner, it was absolutely free!
    and i get plenty of use out of it!

    also as i said above, the issue with giving forward shield to vanguard by default is that it uses the ability slot button to activate, which could lead to complications, so i feel like a passive ability would be better,
    and an improved Nimitz Reactor would do perfect, with the whole theme of vanguard being its defensive nature.
    • Up x 1
  7. Botji

    FS doesnt even heal a single tank hit and you would rather have that than a full charge for your boost that you could perhaps use to dodge 2-3 extra shots with some luck/skill?
    Put side by side, FS is worth less than 1 second of the Vanguards 8 second shield duration. Even if the Vanguard shield only had 1 second duration, it would still be at least twice as good as having FS, are you seriously saying that FS is worth more than the full 1 second extra of Magrider boost?

    How can you even be discussing this when you think that little of it?
    The Vanguards 1000 extra health is worth more than FS, you have been talking about how bad it is that the Vanguard doesnt have two abilities like the Prowler and Magrider but now you just kinda flipped the table and suddenly the ability to get twice as much boost is not worth the 750 health you get from FS.. but the extra 1000 health on the Vanguard doesnt count as an ability!?

    You trolling or what?
  8. Demigan

    Lets put it like this:

    Magrider advantages:
    - Auto-granted afterburner
    - since afterburner doesnt take a slot there is no penalty to taking something else, fire supression or diagonal afterburn for example. This does not necessarily force the player to pick the quick recharge tanks.
    - strafing, which contrary to popular belief is definitely useful for making you harder to hit which raises your effective survivability.
    - fixed turret allows for front armor to face your target at all times (even with multiple attackers you are more likely to present frontal armor to more enemies than other vehicles in the same position)
    - best turn ratio's in the game by a landslide.
    - its sloping frame combined with strafing means that most enemies will effectively be firing at 33% or less of your actual hitbox size.
    - hovering allows you to get over friendly Lightnings to/from cover, or over enemies to their rear.

    Magrider disadvantages:
    - front-facing gun makes aiming a bit more difficult and some shots are harder to take.
    - slowest-in-class maximum speed.
    - low placement of gun makes some shots harder.
    - its hovering makes hitting something while turning a larger detriment than for the other tanks.

    Prowler advantages:
    - best-in-class acceleration
    -best-in-class maximum speed
    - second-in-class movement. Combined with the other movement advantages this makes the Prowler the fastest MBT on the battlefield as long as terrain isnt too rough.
    - dual shot makes for the easiest gauging of long-range shots, also makes for the best main gun anti-infantry capabilities.
    -highest DPS of any ground vehicle
    - Auto-granted lockdown for better long-range combat
    - new Barrage allows the Prowler to make use of its superior movement while benefitting from the decreased reload speed.
    - Prowlers square frame make it less susceptible to bumps in the road.

    Prowler disadvantages:
    - the broad frame and track movement make it more likely to hit more bumps.
    - anchor makes you sacrifice all the movement advantages you have, very situational.
    - prowlers present the same medium-size target from all directions

    Vanguard advantages:
    - 1000 more health
    - second best-in-class speed
    - shield that heavily reduces damage from front and sides.
    -vanguard has the thinnest front of all MBT's.
    - 25m/s more muzzle velocity compared to its main canon counterparts

    Vanguard disadvantages:
    - slowest acceleration
    - slowest turn ratio, combined with slowest acceleration this makes the Vanguard the actual slowest-in-class to get anywhere with the least maneuverability
    - largest side-profile of all MBT's
    - in general the least useful ES topguns, they are either close to equal to the NS variants without offering something better or downright worse than the ES variants of the other factions.

    You probably cant see it, but all the advantages of the Vanguard are reactive. The advantages of the Prowler and Magrider allow you to use them and gain advantages such as more damage dealt overall, more damage avoided or an easier time reaching safety or a better position.
    The Vanguard's abilities come into effect when you are doing something wrong: your extra health can only help you when you are hit, the shield only helps you when you are hit and you have to use that ability almost immediately. The only thing a Vanguard user can leverage is making sure his opponents can use their advantages the least so it becomes a 100% accuracy slugfest, which the lack of mobility of the Vanguard make very hard. And that ignores the fact that PS2 rarely has just 1v1 slugfests, with most fights being multiple tanks popping up from cover, firing until damaged and then retreating for repairs.

    So yes, the Vanguard definitely needs something unique to it. The Afterburner and Anchor ability are truly abilities you can leverage, if necessary out of combat. On top of that the inherent statistics and behaviour of the Prowler and Magrider give them unique opportunities to defeat their opponents, while the Vanguard can in all practicality only outperform the other two by tanking shots. The Vanguard needs more inherent stats that help it's base chassis, but also more abilities that it can leverage, one of which has to be an auto-granted ability like the other two tanks already have that is not focused on taking more hits.
    • Up x 2
  9. Liewec123

    thats the thing, i don't need to choose between fire suppression and boost, i have BOTH, i was given an entirely free upgrade.

    actually the one who is trolling here seems to be you.
    first you claimed that everyone is required to pile everything into magburner in every slot,
    then i let you know that no, i've played without magburner since 2013. (and its probably the MBT i've used most.)
    and now you say "but now you just kinda flipped the table and suddenly the ability to get twice as much boost is not worth the 750 health you get from FS."
    you can try to give me a quote if you like because i didn't even mention the other suit slot,
    i've never used it so how can my position have flipped...my position was always that i preferred FS to boost.

    i've always went for a full regen build with the strafing frame to allow me to dodge a lot of the incoming shots,
    thats my preferred build, getting magburner for FREE just made it even better.

    and no, we aren't talking about stat differences here, 1000 hp is a stat perk.
    just like prowler's shots per reload is 2 instead of 1 is a stat perk.
    and magrider's recoil being 0 is a stat perk.

    we're talking more flashy, abilities.
    all prowlers can deploy, all magriders can boost, so all vanguards should get something unique too!
    "but 1000hp!" lol, and then having the audacity to call someone else a troll. :rolleyes:
    • Up x 1
  10. Botji

    Ah yes, the no Multi-directional exhaust, Fire suppression Magrider... probably the most optimal use of a Magrider.

    Just as using the Magrider boost to dodge shots is not a reactive ability, unlike the Vanguard shield that is only used to negate 2/3 shots that hit it.

    Yep, I have to agree. The average Magrider driver can definitely dodge 67% of all shots that are fired at them, they dont even need to use Multi-directional or Recharger to get 2 seconds of boost, they do it with the basic forward boost and 1 second total charge. Unlike the Vanguard shield that only lasts for 8 seconds, a Magrider can keep dodging shots almost as long as the average alert lasts... most people dont bother longer than that since the continent locks after the alert but im sure they could keep it up indefinitely if they even tried.

    Yeah, not sure what to say. I have to be the absolute worst Magrider driver since I cant dodge all the shots people fire at me unless its over long range, and I use both the Multi-directional and Recharger to get the most out of the booster. Cant one of you throw up some tutorials to show how you can consistently fight without them while still maintaining the bare minimum of 67% evasion? Im sure there is at least one or two other Magrider drivers almost as bad as me that could learn from it.

    I have watched some youtube videos of what I thought were really amazing Magrider drivers but now I know even those guys are on the lower end of the skill spectrum and struggle with this clearly OP vehicle.

    Now that I think about it its kinda weird that only really terrible Magrider drivers have posted videos but I guess thats just how things are.
  11. Demigan

    You are deliberately taking my words to the extreme.

    When you aim dead-center of a Magrider, you are effectively aiming for the 50% to the right or left of the Magrider since it's strafing. The center of the Magrider might be as large as the other two MBT's, but almost immediately only 50% of the hitbox remains when you go off that center and it slopes down to about 1/3rd of the center hitbox. unless you are almost standing against your opponent, that means that you've just eliminated 60 to 70% of the potential hitbox you could hit. That doesn't mean you'll be missing 30 to 40% of your shots, which is your instant kneejerk reaction.
    Also not aiming for the center and leading a strafing Magrider means that a change in direction allows the Magrider to dodge your shots now. So either way you have to pick your poison: Shoot for a smaller target or risk the Magrider dodging your shots. "risk" being the operative word here, there's no guarantees and there won't be any magical 67% dodging going on.

    Magburn use during combat is rare even with the directional burn, it's not used for dodging much which you should know as Magrider user and if you have been trying to use it like that the problem is definitely with you. It's about as dumb as the people who claim the Vanguard can just suicide-run itself into any enemy position because of the shield and win. It's the strafe that's useful and helps the Magrider avoid (not dodge!) more shots. If someone said "hey the Vanguard has a slim frame from the front" I'm not going to scream "But it can't dodge ya idiot so a slim frame is useless!!!!!". Ofcourse not! A slim frame makes it a harder target when fired at from the front, it's wide side frame makes it an easier target from the side. That's a simple truth. Magrider's being able to strafe make it a harder target, especially when you keep in mind the hitbox of the frame.

    Also the FS Magrider is probably one of the best choices. A single use of the FS allows you to tank at minimum 1 more shot, it's not as if the damage of each gun will perfectly kill their target, so where a shot would previously have killed the Magrider with 200 health overkill it would now have a few hundred more health than before allowing it to survive just a little longer. In the meantime you can still use the very useful Magburn ability for free to get around the more difficult obstacles for the Magrider.
    • Up x 1
  12. Botji

    750 health is an ability, 1000 health is not an ability, just numbers?

    My argument is based on you following basic logic, clearly I was mistaken since you are valuing 750 health higher than 1000 health.
    You are putting the Magrider boost as an equal to the Vanguard shield, since your argument is based on "Magrider has two abilities so the Vanguard should also have two".

    I once again mistakenly thought your value of the boost was based on the damage it can negate instead of just "its one ability so I want one ability too!".

    Thats why I thought it was insane to value 750 health higher than another second of boost, since a single tank shot dodged is more than 750 health, again, my bad thinking you were somehow grounded in anything other than abilituz! WOO!

    Mistakes were made, now I know better.
  13. Botji

    With no sarcasm meant, I dont get what you are saying here. A Magrider has to look right at you to fire at you, aiming center mass of the Magrider means no matter where the Magrider strafes you will hit it unless the range is long enough to let the slow strafe speed move the Magrider out of the path of the shot, that range has been said to be quite far though.

    The exception to this(strafing Magrides too slow, aim center mass) is with Multi-directional boost, that does allow a Magrider to dodge shots even at decently close range so again I dont get what you mean by its not used that way, when I, the one that thinks a Lightning is generally a better tank is saying its possible to do so why not do it? even if you only dodge a single shot this way that is still more health gained than the 750 you get from a FS. Throw in the Recharger and its not that uncommon to dodge two shots which is again much better than taking a hit and only repairing 750 health.

    Multi-directional boost lets you dodge shots you wouldnt otherwise = better than FS.
    Recharge lets you dodge more shots you wouldnt otherwise = better than FS.

    Seems like a obvious pick to sacrifice the defensive slot for Multi-directional to dodge even a single tank shot and at that point Recharge is simply better than FS so why not use it?

    What do the Magriders use their boost for when you are fighting them? Moving around you? Why not do that while dodging a shot at the same time?
    Trying to wrap my head around this weird idea that boosting is not used to avoid/throw off the aim of people, if you can only boost forward its easy to hit the Magrider, if it can boost while strafing its much harder to hit it while it still gets to the possition it wanted to go to, why wouldnt that be the optimal way? Works half decently for me/agaisnt me and any really good Magrider driver I have seen does similar things.

    I am after all that guy that drives a solo Vanguard and kills Magriders that you mentioned above;)
  14. Crayv

    Actually since the projectile comes out of the camera the low placement of the gun has no effect. You can tell if you fire over a hill where the low lying gun wouldn't let you shoot over it but the real placement will, the graphic projectile will actually clip through the ground.

    Since it's camera seems to sit fairly high on the tank and the top of it being just a small nub. It is actually an advantage.
    • Up x 2
  15. Demigan

    This is the Magrider from the front:

    The center of the Magrider is the largest, but notice that slope to the armor? Go off-center and suddenly the Magrider has half the hitbox. Since you are aiming at the center and the Magrider is strafing to either side, even at closer ranges the Magrider will have moved its center out of the way, leaving you with 50% of the hitbox size you aimed at. But that armor slopes even more, until you effectively have 30% or less hitbox left to try and hit if you fire from longer ranges.
    Also, since the Magrider is strafing left or right and you are aiming at the center, you are effectively aiming at just half the tank.

    Why this is difficult to understand baffles me. Infantry also strafes right? And infantry fights at shorter ranges with much higher muzzle velocities. Unless you are abusing the latency system infantry cant dodge... but they can make themselves a harder target. Why wouldnt the Magrider do the same? In fact every newb in the game instinctively knows this, as virtually no Magrider in the game will stand still, they all strafe left and right while firing at you.
    Except you apparently.

    Because most of the time using Magburn in the middle of the battle isnt that useful. Not only do you have to predict when your enemy is going to shoot, which due to latency and clientside damage can mean he already hit you by the time you see his shot, but you have to partially turn your chassis for a larger perpendicular movement but at the cost of showing a larger hitbox and negating the sloping hitbox shown from the front.
    Also since most battles arent 100% accuracy slugfests but fights where players keep going back into cover, having a periodic healthregen is very useful. Also isnt it weird that you say "oh noes we have to carry this loadout and its bad" when A: you actively use that loadout and nothing else apparently and B: you did not have access to this combination before so yes the Magrider was definitely buffed compared to what it was?

    Multi-directional boost is no guarantee, and can also increase the likelyhood of being hit, and push your vehicle out of a position you want. For example most Magrider users will move forwards for the beginning of a fight, then start moving backwards and slide back into cover as they get damaged (unless the fight goes well and they want to risk taking out a damaged opponent). Dodging an extra shot that pushes you out of position is not useful unless you can make that count.

    Because you use circular logic here? "I have had success with it, so I pick this combination, so no other combination must be useful".

    Also lets assume you are right for a moment. This still means that the Magrider got a straight up buff, and the Magrider was not underperforming compared to the other two MBT's.

    Because its used to get into position while out of combat?

    You know, I've been fighting Magriders for a long time and I have a far better view of what Magriders do to try and beat me (besides me piloting some). However your focus is not on friendly Magriders during a fight and whenever you do see someone Magburn to dodge its confirmation bias, ignoring all the times you didnt see that happen. Since Magburn using Magriders are rare during combat and almost always used as a last resort when they cant reach cover otherwise you are the odd one out.

    Bullcrap! Why dont you show it?

    Also about the Lightning: everyone and their dog thinks the Lightning is better then their MBT. I realized this years ago but only recently people have been using it in their "my MBT is the weakest even Lightning is better" threads.
    But that is the thing: the Lightning has always been the great equalizer in PS2's tank warfare. Esamir showed us this the best. For years you had to control the techplant for access to MBT's, and the owner of Esamir's only techplant never became an unstoppable vehicle power no matter if it was NC, TR or VS that held it.
    No MBT has the cost/effectiveness of the Lightning, not the Magrider, not the Prowler and definitely not the Vanguard which is the worst performing MBT. Trying to use the "but mah MBT is weaker than the Lightning!" Argument is like saying "but all our snipers have longer range than our Carbines! Only our faction has to get long-range Carbines because only we suffer from this!".
    • Up x 1
  16. Liewec123

    yes...the ability to regain 750 health every 45 seconds IS AN ABILITY.
    having 6000 HP instead of 5000 is not an ability.
    Please just try saying the sentence "I have the ability to have 6000 heath instead of 5000 health."
    Feel stupid saying that? I hope so.
    Welcome to logic, enjoy your stay.

    I mean seriouly, are you wanting to count everything as an ability?
    Because by the time we add up the hovering over objects, the strafing,
    the zero recoil, the lack of wobble when firing while moving over terrain, and the other quirks like faster speeds
    how many "abilities" does magrider have?!
    Vanguard is due half a dozen new "abilities" if we want to go with your logic that every little quirk is an ability...
    Its lucky for you we just want ONE, to rival the ACTUAL ability that you were given for free.

    I doubt it.
  17. oOHansOo

    So, seeing how you only seem to throw insults at each other, i'm trying something new here: A thought on how to make the
    Nimitz-reactor work.
    Right now it is nothing more than a ****tier Nano autorepair, so why not have the 2 certlines interact. When you equip the reactor, your autorepair is also active. This would make the Nimitz-reactor viable without overpowering it. You still don't get an advantage in battle, but you will recover a bit faster out combat, since the autorepair and the shield recharge can run at the same time.
    Right now it takes ages to repair a vanguard to full health, so having a bit of your health as regenerate as shield, while you, or nanit autorepair fixes the rest of your tank, means you simply have less downtime.
    It still won't be a recordbreaker for speed repair, but at least there is a reason to chose the reactor instead of stealth or flanker armor.
  18. Liewec123

    but you'd still need to change Nimitz in some other way,
    because currently all it does in real scenarios is increase your downtime to 20 seconds.
    (10 seconds before regen begins, 10 seconds of repair time)
    it doesn't help with downtime, it hinders it! :p
    without nimitz the two engies can hop out and repair the tank to full (NAR will help speed up this process)
    however with nimitz the two engies can hop out and only repair the tank to 80%,
    they need to wait 20 seconds without the tank taking any damage to get to 100%.

    so even if we made nimitz and nar active at the same time,
    the engies might be faster repairing to 80%, thanks to nar,
    but they'd still need to wait for 20 seconds for nimitz to do the rest.

    imho the best thing for nimitz would be to constantly apply a small shield (30-50hp)
    every second up to a max of 1k.
    if we made it default to all vanguards (to be vanguards equivalent of Magburner and Anchor)
    we could lower the regen per second to perhaps 25?

    also i'm only giving him insults because he's been so utterly condescending, i'm no insult sponge, people will get what they give! ;)

Share This Page