[Suggestion] New TR weapons and their useless mods.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by RexV14, Jan 4, 2020.

  1. RexV14

    So lets make this short. While I think that the new NC and VS weapons have GREAT mods which enhance their performance the TR got stuff that not many people use because they add nothing and only take something away.

    Dragoon Semi Auto mod: Its almost necesary since you can still fire as fast as you could before, have less recoil and lose nothing.

    Dragoon explosive ammo: You lose damage per shot, damage overall, magazine capacity and you gain very minimal aoe damage that doesnt even hurt vehicles.

    Jackal 9 round burst: Its only usefull if you fight a single enemy (wont happen a lot) around a corner (will happen less) and know when exactly the guy will be and where (happens even less less). Then you have to charge up which everyone will hear to release a 9 round burst at a slightly higher rpm...then you need to reload or switch mode.

    Alabasta: Nothing special, minor damage increase with regular downsides which doesnt change the feel of the weapon or its potential

    Watchman: Slightly more damage while taking 25 round off your magazine but keeping the massive 5-7 second reload time.

    Most mods for the NC and VS weapons give you great abilities, change the entire way the gun feels and works or gives you MORE. Most mods for the new TR guns reduce their effectiveness or change nothing.
    • Up x 1
  2. Terrince

    Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes!
    TR's newest weapons need to be looked at again.

    Unfortunately I think the Watchman was over nerfed, when you line it up with the MAW and Promise, it falls short.
    (Needs just a tad damage buff, I think. If the other two can both 3 shot kill, why can't TR's??)

    The Jackal should've got VS' Canis mechanic, it is, err was, TR's thing to have faster fire rate weapons anyways... Right?

    When I heard the Dragoon had explosive ammo I was like, "Finally! TR gets a small arms weapon that can damage heavy armor!" Nope... (I never understood why explosive ammo, for any game, causes LESS damage to infantry. It is explosive!)

    Finally the A-Arba-Arbalest-eewagh... It needs a buff again. One of the worst guns in TR's arsenal!
    Don't get me wrong, it is cool looking and sounding but it takes to long between bursts, which is very odd, because it fires much faster than the other two ARs and yet VS and NC's will kill you before you fire a second time, (unless they aren't good shots) It feels like there is a block lodged between your finger and the trigger for every pull. You gotta land 7 (or was it 8) shots to kill and only if they are all headshots!
    (Like most TR's guns you must get headshots if you wanna be competitive. And yes, you need to do that in general but TR's more so)

    Of course this is my thoughts on them. (I have used/own them all)
  3. OgreMarkX

    DBG's design concept in a nutshell:

    Make VS stuff deadly and useful, make their attachments even more so.

    Make NC stuff fun and useful, make their attachments even more so.

    Make TR stuff gimmicky and make it all require attachments to achieve peak mediocrity.
  4. OneShadowWarrior

    I thought I was the only one who posted stuff about this, glad to see I am not the only one who see’s that TR are having trouble finding a niche with their weapons.

    I have the same issue with many of their weapons like the Butcher for instance, it just doesn’t have the niche compared to Godsaw or Betelgeuse. Godsaw has range and a punch, Betelgeuse got ammoless and can even get a Coldheart custom implant. Butcher is basically a T9 Carv but with a extended mag and it only get’s 150? Sorry but for a high end gun that doesn’t really hit hard in close or far and excessively long reload times 200 or 250 magazine would seem more feasable.

    The Watchman feels sluggish and ammo feels small, Jackal runs out of ammo to fast, so many issues with TR getting junk for new developments.

    NS/NSX weapons have pretty much retired many of the TR weapons.
  5. Demigan

    Hold on, the NC weaponry doesnt have that many useful abilities either.

    The Promise has the "unique" choice between higher velocity or more ammo per magazine. Both are viable but not unique.

    The charger's unique is a weaker version of the TR, having higher damage for the first few bullets but needs to reload to reset it where the TR only needs to release the trigger. Additionally where the TR version has it's DPS fall off towards what a normal weapon would have after the initial higher RPM burst the NC version starts with a normal DPS and falls off afterwards towards an inferior DPS. The smartfeeder is a double edged sword, except the second edge is placed on the hilt of the weapon. You get a normal amount of ammo for a higher reload (and more shots with inferior DPS due to the lower damage after the first few shots) or you have a standard lower magazine.

    The Bishop's tungsten liner is a straight downgrade. It heavily increases recoil for minimal damage increase up to 20m, after which it deals normal damage again. It would already be a tough choice if the damage didnt fall off due to the recoil but it effectively gives you damage in a range the weapon isnt designed for. The Sabot rounds are fun, but even when I tried to maximize the amount of targets to hit I might have had between 5 and 10 kills through it on a full auraxium. I lost more battles because of the lowered ROF.

    Vanquisher is a massively good weapon by itself, but its unique attqchments are terrible. Has the same self-nerfing Sabot ammo but also the choice to equip EMP ammo that is a direct nerf in 95% of the situations.

    The Gladius is again a weapon that is solid on its own, but its attachments suck balls. Velocity ammo that takes precious magazine away and on an SMG that isnt designed for range anyway and a hybrid suppressor that isnt much better than a regular suppressor.

    Of all these weapons only the Vanquisher and the Gladius are anything to write home about and that only because their base weapon is good. And the Gladius is one of the best SMG's but looking at voidwell it isnt THE best SMG which many make it out to be.
    • Up x 1
  6. Liewec123

    why are people saying NC attachments are better?
    I usually find NC are worst, TR'S usually suck too, and as always VS get the best.

    Battle rifle
    TR get damage nerf for non-existent aoe.
    NC get a RoF nerf that let's them shoot through all enemies in a single straight line.
    (I main engi and bishop has been my go-to gun since its release, i've NEVER won the lotto and had enemies stand in a nice straight line...)
    VS get to hipfire their BR as a 167 dmg SMG for CQC.

    Assault rifle
    TR get a nifty Incendiary launcher, giving you Aoe for chokepoints.
    NC get the useless piercing mechanic again, and also a useless "EMP" damage nerf.
    VS get to use their AR for splash, like the TR's BR but without reducing their damage.

    The attachment that really takes the cake though is Charger...
    Here we have a weapon that is "decent" for the first few shots of the mag, but then the rest do weak damage.
    I guess the idea is that we peak out, fire a few rounds and then duck back for a reload, well...
    Wrel actually gave us an attachment that gives us LONGER RELOADS in exchange for more of the WEAK BULLETS...
    Think about that for a moment...
    • Up x 3
  7. pnkdth

    Obelisk has a bloom per shot of 0.2 when hip-firing while the Cyclone has 0.02. Obelisk will have about twice the CoF compared to the Cyclone. The Obelisk will also have 12 bullets if firing full auto (assuming you have zero heat). Sure you can burst fire but the only way you'd argue that's practical in a CQC environment is if you have no idea how CQC and the heat mechanic work. In other words, switch to your sidearm... You'll thank me later.

    It is also worth mentioning that the Lashing ammo from the VS AR will be dragged down to 250m/s which will severely limit the weapon even at "long" short range combat. Main reason being that even if you would hit them your opponent will have already killed you and probably moved out of sight (thus surviving). You aren't a HA with a shield, after all, and staying out in the open hurts. You can fire bursts and duck into cover yourself but this will devour your ammo + much like the NC piercing rounds it isn't terribly useful in practice. I'd like to note that it isn't useless either and has a place.

    The Horizon is fun but often infuriating. Points for creating something interesting though.

    All in all, I view these attachments are optional extras when I want to do something a bit different. Personally, I hope we get to see weapons entirely based on ES ammo and attachments rather than having to do this awkward dance of trying to make one weapon work in multiple ways. Sure, they'll probably have to deal with a lot of whining but that's how it should be when each faction gets something unique to them.
  8. LodeTria

    They got a really nice carbine at least, 167 damage at just under 700rpm. It sits right at the top with gd-7f though I don't know which is actually better.
  9. AlcyoneSerene

    Can't forget the useless unstable ammo which harms the game overall: low headshot multiplier, low visibility to target, target being blinded by it, low skill ceiling, and to top it off it has effectively nerfed two VS guns in order to account for unstable ammo option: Canis (recently buffed finally), and Maw - I'll gladly take an Anchor over it.

    Charger yellow tracers are similarly blinding, and give away your position big time.

    Watchman has such low ammo pool since the damage output of each bullet is so low. The very long reload and low mag size do enough to keep it balanced.

    Jackal's mod draws from the same magazine, adding charge-up and yet another delay to empty the other rounds, on top of the sound effects alerting everyone of what's supposed to be an ambush. A Canis spin-up mechanic would have been much more appropriate to TR.

    Explosive ammo is completely useless too, and will never be worth the loss of damage.
  10. Campagne

    Every time I read a thread like this my resolve hardens a bit more. :p I have no idea where these nonsensical ideas come from, but a quick glace at the applicable weapons' attachments blows this idea out of the water.

    • Sidegrades: BX Adapter, Impact Ammo (Watchman, Arbalest).
    • Upgrades: Single-fire barrel, Heavy Magazine, Stabilizing Rotor, Incendiary Launcher.
    • Downgrades: Explosive Ammo
    Not exactly leaving the TR weak or worthless, being primarily beneficial. At most a player can simply choose to use the standard attachment choices or simply nothing at all instead. Compared to the other factions:

    • Sidegrades: SPRW Ammo (Gladius, ~Promise)
    • Upgrades: Smart Feeder (Promise), Comfort Grip
    • Downgrades: Tungsten Liner, Sabot Ammo (Bishop, Vanquisher), Smart Feeder (Charger), Disruptor Ammo
    Less good, more bad. Predominately bad.
    • Sidegrades: Unstable Ammo (Canis, Maw, Horizon), Capsulate Ammo, Lashing Ammo
    • Upgrades: Manual Calibration, Safety Override
    • Downgrades: Vented Power Core (Canis, Maw, Horizon, Lacerta)
    Less good, more bad, mostly sidegrade.
    *For the purposes of this comparison:
    • A Sidegrade is something which alters the functionality of a weapon in a which is not inherently advantageous or disadvantageous, or one which merely offers a unique style of play without broadly increasing effectiveness. (Example: High Velocity Ammo)
    • An Upgrade is simply something which provides either a significant benefit without a significant hindrance or one which simply provides a benefit with little to no hindrance at all. (Example: Forward Grip)
    • A Downgrade is simply something which inflicts a significant hindrance without a significant benefit, or one which simply causes a hindrance with little to no benefit at all. (Example: Flash Suppressor)
    • Up x 1
  11. RexV14

    Some of the upgrades for the TR guns that you listed there just bring the TR guns in line with the base NC and VS weapons.

    Giving factions unique items is good. Giving 2 of them items that you could actualy use is also nice. Giving one mostly items that no body uses or that you really have to use in order to effectively use the gun itself is not nice.

    Also thx for all the comments. Maybe DBG reads this and at least gives it some thoughts.
  12. Hegeteus

    I've been trying out the Disruptor ammunition, it seems good against heavy assaults with nanoweave and adrenaline shield / nanomesh (AKA metabois) especially at range since it normalizes the damage output.

    I'm not sure if it actually is better though, or just really close. Here's some simple math (note: I suck at math, let me know if there are flaws here) to compare it at it's maximum damage range to normal ammo against a HA with nanomesh and nanoweave at 30% headshot rate (which is pretty average):

    Average damage with normal ammo against HA in this scenario:

    (200 * 0,75 * 0,7) + (400 * 0,3) = 225

    Average damage with disruptor ammo against HA with nanomesh:

    (125 * 0,75 * 0,7) + (250 * 0,3) + 37,5 + (450 * 0,06) = 232

    Explanation: 0,7 and 0,3 are the HS and non-HS ratios, 37,5 is 75 divided by 2 to make up for the fact that half of player's health comes from the personal shield.

    Points to consider:
    • Value of disruptor ammo will grow over range, and drop with increased HS ratio
    • Carapace will of course fully troll it
    • Enemies with auxiliary shield will be slightly more vulnerable
    • It's a bit worse against infiltrators, since they have less shield
    All I care about is how it performs against heavy assaults though, since they are the only targets in PS2 that are somewhat hard to take down as a medic or engineer.
  13. Demigan

    This is better handled with a shot-by-shot calculation. I'll do the normal shots first.

    The Nanite Mesh armor does not stack with nanoweave, so it does not benefit from the 20% damage reduction (and not 25% as you used in your calculations). The rest of the health does benefit from this and receives 160 damage per shot.

    shot 1: 500 health, 500 shield, 250 overshield
    2: 500 h, 500 s, 50 overshield
    3: 500h, 380s (150 damage is left that receives 20% damage reduction)
    4: 500h, 220s
    5: 500h, 60s
    6: 400h
    7: 240h
    8: 80
    9: -80h dead.

    Now for disruptor ammo, I assume that the disruptor effect affects the shield and not the overshield, 6% of 450 equals 27 damage per shot. The base damage the moment the overshield is gone is 100 damage after nanoweave:
    1: 500h, 425s, 298os
    2: 500h, 350s, 146os
    3: 500h, 270s (6*0,8 damage is left assuming the disruptor effect goes first and that is added to the 75 shield damage)
    4: 500h, 95s (the 6% damage to the overshield doesn't work anymore so (125*0,8)+75 it's a straight 175 damage per shot)
    5: 415h (75 shield damage is absorbed fully by the shield and 100 damage is divided over 15 shield and 500 health)
    6: 315h (only 100 damage per shot now due to nanoweave and nothing more to disrupt!)
    7: 215h
    8: 115h
    9: 15h
    10: dead.

    This is the most ideal scenario for disruptor ammo in terms of calculations where I always subtracted the ability first before doing the normal bullet damage.

    With headshots this becomes even more skewed, as the disruptor effect becomes smaller compared to the flat damage per hit. The only way that it stands a chance is when damage falloff kicks in and it's about bodyshots (or legshots). We can calculate that btw without having to go through the entire shot-by-shot thing again.
    The shots against the overshield have a damage difference of 33 damage while against health and shield it's 167*0,8=133,6 damage per shot compared to 160 damage per shot during nanoweave meaning a shot difference of 26,4 damage per shot.
    3 shots with nanoweave and 6 shots without means 257 damage difference between all 9 shots. Since at shot 9 you dealt 80 damage too muchthere's 177,4 damage left at shot 9. This adds 2 shots of 133 damage at max range with bodyshots alone so 11 shots.

    11 shots for maximum range damage versus the 10 shots that dirsuptor ammo retains. Except that the Vanquisher is a burst-fire rifle. In that last burst you kill your opponent anyway. This last shot is a difference but it only matters if all you do is bodyshots and you don't even have to get that much closer to get your damage up to 10 shot kills again.
    And again, it could be that subtracting the disruptor effect before the flat bullet damage is wrong, which would push the disruptor to 11 shots as well...
    • Up x 1
  14. Hegeteus

    Yeah a shot by shot is more appropriate I suppose. Oh and yeah I for some reason always remember nanoweave being 25%, although I use it constantly myself... I also didn't realize that the nanoweave had at some point apparently been dislodged from affecting overshields, nor did I consider that it'll obviously be gone before the HA dies.

    I really like it's idea, it's a shame it kind of appears to be a little undertuned after all (at least with ability power drain). It's in theory very powerful against bionics users, which are turbotrolled by EMPs already and I bet more people are using carapace. It might be better on minimum damage range at least, but that's 90 meters which isn't nearly the case most of the time.

    One thing that comes to mind is that maybe carrying around Fujins or Raijins could bring some benefit. First tear through the shields, then finish with another damage source.

    Since I've enjoyed it with Disruptor ammo, I should probably give it a try without it as well.
  15. Demigan

    I think that disruptor ammo is fundamentally flawed. It has perhaps 1 very tiny way it could be a useful yet balanced slot for a weapon.
    You need to find the average range at which kills are made, and make sure that the point where disruptor ammo becomes superior due to no damage falloff is exactly on that average. That makes it a superior option for longer range for the weapon, but if you fight at closer than average (which would still be the 50% of the cases) then the standard ammo is superior.
    But there's a caveat. You simultaneously have to deal with HA's. If disruptor ammo is superior from the average kill range than it will be a superior choice overall when hitting HA's. But if you base it on HA health than its an inferior choice overall when hitting non-HA's. So what choice do you make? What classes do you balance this ammo around?
    Worse still is that headshot damage totally skews things again. Disruptor ammo is vastly inferior the moment headshots come into play. How do you balance that?

    I think that rather than different damage potentials, special ammo should offer different playstyles or sacrifice some damage for an advantage. Think of flash ammo that (almost) blinds the opponent for 0,1 seconds per hit, or its effect lasts longer but has to stack multiple hits to truly be dibilitating. Concussion ammo, bouncing ammo, bullets that erase all hostile spots upon hit for that player, tracker ammo that spots a target for longer durations and through stealth, ammo that has an effect on target death (VS could build up a plasma charge on the target that explodes when the target dies to hopefully damage others nearby, or some forms could return health and ammo to the player or detect nearby enemies as the bullets "hack" the suits systems during shutdown etc).
  16. Hegeteus

    If it was slightly worse against non-HAs and better against HAs, I wouldn't mind that trade of at all. Like I said, it would be interesting to have something that targets the 1v1 brawler directly.

    That being said, I briefly tried out my theory on utilizing Fujin/Raijin as a finisher for disruptor ammo. It feels good and relatively easy to execute thanks to the burst fire mod. Maybe it won't turn out to be the hottest stuff, but finding good properties from flawed stuff has been my specialty for 5 or more years now :D It'll take some time to get used to throwing knives again, but I'll keep trying this gimmick out and see how it goes.