New Striker TTK Comparison between different launchers:

Discussion in 'Test Server: Discussion' started by Ztiller, Sep 8, 2014.

  1. Jube

    What this test demonstrates to me is that none of the ESLR's are balanced properly.
    The ESRL should be the factions top of the line launcher, better than all the other available to them, (with the possible exception of the NS launchers available to all factions).

    With regards to ESF's I don't believe one man should be able to destroy it with one clip of rockets, on the other hand, it shouldn't take more than three men targeting the same ESF to kill it.. SoE should not penalize the TR for teamwork.

    When it comes to ground vehicles either the damage of the rockets must be increased or the resistance to their damage needs to be decreased. It is simply ridiculous that I can't kill a flash with a full clip of rockets from a Striker, but I could pull out the TR's beginner launcher, (the ML-7) and kill it with one shot.
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  2. Ransurian

    The next patch can't come soon enough...
  3. Ztiller

    No. That's not how Sidegrades work. For every benefit you should pay with a drawback. No weapon should ever be "Top-line."
  4. Jac70

    The stock launcher is a dumbfire, the Striker has a seeking mechanism. Therefore there should be a payoff, and that payoff is it doesn't do as much damage.
  5. Runegrace

    Firstly, stripping off the name on a quote removes the notification in the forums. If you want people to actually respond don't use generic quotes.

    The Lancer does indeed have damage drop off, but that is the only one. In addition, how helpful for discussion is it to argue someone's numbers by providing your own under DIFFERENT conditions? You don't specify the terms that you gather the data under, but then make snarky comments that people don't know HOW you got the data therefore they should shut up? That isn't very constructive to the discussion.

    And again, what is the average accuracy for players with the new Striker? You can quote anecdotal stories of a guy having trouble hitting a passing ESF on test server, but asserting that as fact about performance is dishonest at best. We can't gather that sort of data on test because Live conditions are very different and it ends up just being theory-crafting and opinions. Besides, if accuracy is too low on the Striker we'd likely want to raise projectile velocity and/or the tracking feature over a straight damage buff.

    Testing against the same target means that you get information of a launcher taking t seconds to deal at least X damage. Comparing that to another launcher taking s seconds to deal Y damage isn't very helpful. You might as well test against deployed Sunderers but sometimes it's a blockade, deploy shield, or stock vehicle. The data is only really helpful if the effective HP of the target vehicle is consistent. Attacking someone on this point comes across as either ignorant or as a childish distraction from the real discussion.
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  6. Runegrace

    Deals less damage == easier to hit with
    This looks fine.

    Sacrifices almost all AI and MAX killing potential == ?????????????????
    There's currently nothing offsetting this drawback. You would expect the launcher to outclass in an area if it's giving an entire target type up, or simply not lack so severely against the target type. The Striker needs to either excel more in some area, or not be deficit as much against infantry units. Striker is currently sacrificing too much for what it gains.
  7. Ztiller

    That's pretty much the Lancer though. Sacrifices Dmg, AI and Anti-MAX potential for damage output.

    The offset is the Coyote function. The Striker will, when balanced, outclass any other launcher in short-range Anti-air combat.

    You guys need to understand something. There are literally not a single player on this forum and reddits who think the Striker is balanced right now. PRetty much every single person agree that it's UP and need buffs.

    The difference is that some people here are asking for absolutely mindblowingly broken buffs that would literally cause every single NC and VS vehicle driver, both air and ground, to stop playing altogether. Buffs that remove every single drawback of the Striker and give it every single benefit and strength available in the game. Buffs that would make both the ZOE and Striker apocalypse combined seem lenient.

    Meanwhile the other people, me included, are asking for very small buffs. One at a time, to see where we reach balance.

    Example: A little higher velocity. Not enough? A little more RoF? Better. Now a little CoF buff and it's all set.

    One of these mindsets will absolutely break the game an d cause possibly hundreds of players to stop playing. The other mindset gives us a well rounded, well tested TR Striker who doesn't need to get butchered by the nerfhammer for the second time.
  8. SpectreGhostWTR

    first of all, i never told anyone to shut up. i was called a liar and i ecplained why that's wrong.
    look at it again. i didn't argue the numbers. i posted smth not related to those numbers and asked the OPs thoughts about those numbers, which was about a totally different point. then i was called a liar without the OP understanding how i got those numbers.

    if numbers from PTS are not reliable and playtests are useless, what's the whole point of this thread? aren't all numbers about the new striker from PTS? shouldn't we trust all testers or none?! doesn't this make ALL PTS feedback useless?!
    fun fact: i never said anything about changing the striker stats. please don't misquote me.

    depends on what you want to test. if you want to test pure TTK, sure. but if you want actual meaningful data on effectiveness you should use the RLs against their potential targets, otherwise you just collect data that isn't really helpful for balancing. if a phoenix can kill an prowler and magrider in (disclaimer: fictive numbers!) 15s, but all 3 ESRL kill a vanguard in 20s, then sure they have the same TTK on a vanguard, but the NC can still kill their enemy tanks faster, which is why i said test it against potential targets.

    the whole problem, and this is what i said from my first post, is that TTK alone get's you nowhere. looking at TTK alone will tell you all 3 ESRL are fine and balanced. but are they? is their handling and accuracy the same? can you actually land those shots? how close do you get to that theoretical TTK? that's where accuracy comes into play. you can't ignore that point. but since my first post i have to tell the same stuff. and the OP just misreads my posts and flames me. this isn't getting anywhere.

    another point is that tale of how the new striker will destroy the air game, but i haven't yet seen a single post from someone who used it on PTS AND outside of the VR on how easy and reliable the new striker is. everyone who actually tested it keeps telling how bad and unreliable it is, including players i know to be good players.

    you can't change damage, RoF, magazine size or velocity without changing TTK. if TTK is fine, what can be done to balance it?! CoF?

    see what i mean? TTK isn't everything.

    TTK -> useless
    TTK+average accuracy -> usefull
  9. SanPelicano

    I think this Realistic TTK thing makes totally no sense. Apart from this if you want to know Vanu ESRL Realistic TTK on Vanguard (our test object) you need the Lancer's exact average acc on Vanguard only (not the av. acc in general)

    Your realistic TTK will show false numbers until there are no stats about RL's average accuracy on specific objects.
    Realistic TTK is hardly calculable -> not reliable / useless
  10. SpectreGhostWTR

    that's why you don't limit yourself by testing it only on the vanguard, ofc you need to test it on other targets, OPs test wasn't limited to the vanguard btw. and it's still more useful than a plain 100% accuracy TTK that only exists on pointblank range or in a fantasy world, we're looking at smth that helps us make actual balance suggestions here and not telling the tale of the strikers TTK in a perfect world, right?
  11. Runegrace

    The Lancer has even greater range than the Striker, can be used for AA work at least within Striker range, and then can at least snipe at MAXes and wounded infantry in open terrain (not much, but still). If you try comparing the Striker to the G2A launcher you make some tradeoffs for AT features but don't really gain anything for AA or AI over it. Lancer gets some extreme range ability for its tradeoffs that the Striker currently isn't matching in other areas.

    The point of this thread is that the damage output of the launchers is at least within a order of magnitude of each other. The OP put this up as a reference because there are some people wanting ridiculous buffs. Some people have been asking for x2 damage AND x2 clip size AND x2 RoF AND x3 velocity etc. OP didn't say the current PTS Striker is completely fine; in fact he's been saying that it's UP. The data is just there for reference, and the OP's mostly been asserting that the Striker is at least within the ballpark of an effective weapon.

    But this data wouldn't be meaningful. What is the meaning of a list where I give you the TTK for a G2G launcher against a Harasser, a G2A against an ESF, the default versus different tanks, Decimator versus a Sunderer, and the Annihilator versus a Gal? Can you make any interesting conclusions based on that sort of data? Global TTK is far more important because we have all these NS vehicles running around. MBTs are actually an exception to practical analysis, not the rule. I'd assume that the OP used a Vanguard instead of a Sunderer simply because it would have more health and give a more accurate impression of DPS including reloads.

    This is absolutely true. But the things that you're asking to be considered we don't have access to yet. PTS lets us get some initial impressions and hard data like TTK, but the practical effectiveness you can only gauge with real battle conditions that don't happen on PTS. Go ahead and discuss the effects of intangibles, but be aware that this stuff is extremely subjective. For example, I love the Prowler Anchor Mode but there's other people who hate it. People's ability to take advantage of intangibles can vary greatly.
  12. DrtyRttnHkr

    The problem is that TTK is also useless unless you are comparing like weapons, like all LMGs or SMGs. Due to the nature of the ESRLs all having some sort of unique utility to them, showing TTK is useless to them as they will always function different in combat.
    You don't see these comparisons with the MCG, Jackhammer and Lasher, because they are not the same weapon despite all being Heavy Guns. You would instead look at how they function in their niche.

    IMO all OP shows is potential damage of all the launchers, and is useless for balancing the Striker since it is fundamentally different from all launchers. Yes it needs some help realizing it's damage, but at some point it might have some damage that's never realized in combat and that would need to be buffed in it's potential damage.
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