New spiker changes

Discussion in 'Test Server: Discussion' started by gary the sewer hobo, Oct 21, 2014.

  1. nehylen

    Not that i want an OP Spiker, but having a 2 hits kill at 30m is rather useless on a gun with a 325m/s velocity, unless you've ambushed some very static target (engineer on his turret/ rookie sniper).
  2. SanPelicano

    Well, of course people who died from Phaseshift are deserved to die too. People who get killed by my xbow from 70m also deserve it. People who stabbed with knife blabla. Death happens.... So it is not a valid point of an arguement. On the battlefield there are hunters and preys and you never know who you are...

    Okay, at 30m the traveltime is less than 0.10s with 325 m/s . I dont think anyone can notice the velocity at that range. BTW Xbow has 150m/s velocity and 2 shots OHK and has some killing power:)

    I think I would use charge mode with knife combo = Instakill, intercept wounded enemies on mid range maybe or just troll people:) If I do a mistake it is more fogiving than Xbow anyway...
  3. DxAdder

    The charged shot takes around 1 sec to engage and is only available in single shot mode, practically speaking why would you ever have the pistol in semi-auto mode ?

    Secondaries are used as a QUICK method to finish off someone. At the very least the charged shot should work in both modes.
  4. nehylen

    0.1s is a lot when shooting at a moving target! At that range you can very clearly feel the difference on the same NS-11C with SPA and HVA (427m/s vs 550m/s), and from my small experience with the SMGs, you do very much feel how sluggish 300ish m/s is at that kind of range compared to even the slowest carbines.
  5. DatVanuMan

    PLEASE, don't decrease the damage. Without it, the charged shot may no longer be a valid option. Instead, why not make the fire rate 452, keep the damage, increase drop off, and keep the charged shot the same?
  6. DatVanuMan

    So what do you suggest? Because I like the current charged shot. The only reason I would get this pistol is to use the CHARGED shot, not the burst mode.
  7. Moonheart

    It is. Or else, are you pretending your Xbow is too strong and requiers to be nerfed?
    When something requiers the opponent to be stupid or unreacting to kill, it can't be counted as an argument to say the weapon is powerful or not.
  8. DatVanuMan

    Wait, what is the argument here? That the Spiker should be able to two shot people with the charge (It should)? Or that the Crossbow needs to be nerfed?
  9. DxAdder


    >>>> At the very least the charged shot should work in both modes.<<<<<
  10. Moonheart

    That the spiker being -theoricaly- able to kill someone with two charged shot is without any importance.
  11. Ztiller


    No, god no. That was the reason the Spiker was so horrendously bad in the first place.
  12. Moonheart

    I agree.

    The charge mechanic change the way the trigger work from "shoot when pressed" to "shoot when released".
    It produces an extra delay at each shot, which brings 2 problems:
    1- It's almost impossible to reach the full RPM of the weapon, which, on a weapon that -unlike the Lancer or the Phaseshift- is not almost bolt-action, is a huge hindrance
    2- It makes harder than usual to land shot at a moving/straffing target, which, on a close range weapon like a pistol, is something that can proove to be a deadly flaw

    The dual mode is something that almost all Spiker user asked for. It is not here by accident.
    But... on the other side, having the burst shot on both mode would be acceptable, IMHO.
  13. DatVanuMan

    What the crap? Sounds important to me! WAIT...
    You ARE on my side, right? You DO believe that the Spiker SHOULD be able to do so, RIGHT?
  14. DatVanuMan

    HA! LikeABoss will hunt for you. Here's the thing:
    Implementing the charge mode on the burst mode isn't a good thing, as it limits fire rate.
    Instead, why not improve the charged shot on the semi-auto mode?
  15. Moonheart

    I'm neither on your side or his side.
    I say it does bear any importance, if it can or not.
  16. DxAdder

    I like the modes but the charged shot just seems lacklustre for a 1 sec in firing delay, yes its four shot but the AoE radius seems abit small to make it worth while.

    BTW I liked the red fire pillar way better than the blue plasma effect..
  17. sindz

    Exactly, and I hope the current ps2 devs watche the movie aswell as there seem to be a massive confusioj about what the spiker should be.
  18. XTCAndy

    Actually, the Spiker does fit in the same niche as the TR and NC handguns that are added. Basically, in stalk mode you have the X-bow, and its a great assassination tool, but limited in any type of one-on-one fight and more than one you'll probably die quickly, and if you miss your pretty much going to loose. The new handguns allow an alternative to the person using Stalk cloak so they can be a bit more capable of fighting in close quarters beyond the standard pistol. The TR pistol is great for this, and is the best pistol choice. The NC pistol is great too, but has a more close range for its effective range. That is really the difference between these factions so a category of Heavy Weapon like the mini-chain and lasher and jackhammer can be compared, as they are all heavy weapons but are designed to have different effective ranges. It is not like 'you can't compare them'. If you can't see that then mentally your not capable of seeing the obvious. That is fine. But the jackhammer is made for short range and is a shotgun but one that is capable of burst fire which can be deadly. Beyond a certain range, like all shotguns it ceases to be an effective weapon. Sure it can still kill but it is not effective at doing so. Other than perhaps the Barron, which is a shotgun made for longer range, but notice the Jackhammer does not allow a scope (even x1 or x2) and does not allow Slug Ammo, if he did then it might essentially be like a Barron with burst fire and thus the best possible shotgun in the game, which would be great and especially if your NC player.

    So the jackhammer is designed NOT to be a weapon like the barron, and yet it is a heavy weapon made for room sweeping and close assault. The mini-chain is a medium range weapon, and can kill a bit closer but do to the spin up mechanic until your doing that and the fact it seems a bit more inaccurate the effective range for it is medium range. Beyond that it can kill, just like any weapon with a range, but it is not effective.

    This concept of effective range is very important, call it the effective Kill range and when your outside of that your weapon is at a much reduced capacity to achieve a Kill (though it can still inflict damage).

    The Lasher is an effective Long Range weapon. It can kill closer than that, but it really isn't designed for hipfire and you will find yourself out gunned potentially by weapons designed for that role.

    Thus NC, TR and VS have niches in general: close, medium, long range.

    Now for the new pistols: Spiker, AMP and Mag Scatter are all an alternative means that really are well suited for the Infilitrator in Stalk. Sure you can use it with another class, but you can do that with an X-bow yet because you don't have cloak and especially stalk cloak your light infantry probably is not going to be that effective with it, let alone, say your engineer. Not that you can't kill with it and 'get lucky' now and then but generally speaking your taking a big risk by doing this.

    Now, the mag scatter follows the NC theme of close range effectiveness and I should say I own all of these pistols. I bought the NC and TR one with 1000 credits and yet I can safely say they are all worth buying with SC, whereas I bought the VS pistol with SC and it is not remotely worth it. I should have spent the credits on it but did not want to waste 1000 credits on it so I bought it.

    The mag scatter is a 2 shot kill basically and has a fairly short effective range. If you miss you could well end up dead and you might just hit once and thus die but inflict some damage. It is not meant to be all powerful, but it does allow your stalking infilitrator some ability to uncloak and participate in a bit of close quarter fire fighting with a reasonable chance of winning and getting the kill. Whereas a standard pistol might require 6 to 8 shots to kill (thus you need to hit a lot). The Mag-Shot only really needs 2 shots in most cases. Thus it is a better pistol for that type of thing, but unlike the other standard pistols your range is not far. I really do like this pistol and nothing should change or be done with it. It is designed nicely.

    The TR AMP is great, and since most people like more range, I'd say it is close to medium range. At the upper end of medium range you can still score a kill but it does not have the tightest cone of fire thus you will ofcourse spray and pray. Yet, running up on someone but doing so at a farther distance that you would with a Mag Shot you can uncloak and shoot that gun and probably get that Kill. It has enough ammo (21) to accomplish this job, and thus has a longer Effective Range. I'd say this is the 'best' out of the three guns over all. I really enjoy using it and it is fully worth spending SC on it like the mag shot. If your a stalk cloak person you probably will not regret getting it.

    The Spiker then, should follow the VS theme of long range effective kill range, and probably work like a pistol type Lasher or plasma launcher like the Cosmos or some similiar weapon (of course then with a slower rate of fire). The weapon then really would not be that effective at close range necessarily but would instead allow you to sit back and snipe. Now, I sort of am glad it does not do this. Because you already have access to the X-bow and for longer ranges and sniping you really don't need a pistol to do that. Also adding plasma balls at most would be a support weapon you add shots down range from longer distances. It could be effective but without a scope on the pistol might not be a good option.

    So then the Spiker seems like a closer range assassination weapon, yet you already have the X-bow really and since you charge up the Spiker, if you miss your probably screwed and will die, much like the X-bow. So to me, it is like an alternative choice to that type of ambush weapon. You can go with the spiker or the X-bow. The probably is the Spiker can be deadly at very close range but beyond a certain point, it quickly ceases to be deadly beyond that one-shot kill due to the x6 shot's that get launched. You see in the time it takes to then re-charge, anyone with a remotely effective weapon has already sidestepped and probably shot you dead. So you have one 'wad' to blow and if your wad misses, that's it, much like the X-bow. It generally takes two x-bow shots to kill and if your quick you can do it. Same with the Spiker but the shots go in a vertical line and so if the person moves even remotely that second volley probably will not hit.

    In a close fight if you try and just take single shots with the Spiker though it does fire 'double' shots due to the slowish rate of fire you won't kill someone in time before you die. Thus the normal outcome is you die and they get some damage. That is why weapons like this should allow a Directive Kill for Kill Assists, OR here's a thought simply raise the Rate of fire to that of something like the Beamer for the Spiker so you can spam click and due to the double fire action is clearly more effective than a Beamer, but then your paying 1000 credits for it or 700 (630) SC and thus it should be.

    Perhaps even get it a 3 shot burst and drop the charge up, and raise the rate of fire, thus 3 clicks of the mouse and you probably shot enough to kill most opponents.

    The thing then is what is the effective kill range of the Spiker. Right now it is fairly close, and what role should it fill, as a weapon the Stalk cloak infilitrator takes for running around uncloaking to get (or try to get) effective close to medium kills much like the mag-shot and AMP, but in a slightly different way and feel like if you uncloak and don't miss you'll probably not die and come out with the Kill and if you do die deal some damage. Right now the Spiker does not feel that way and does not seem to be that effective at that function.

    I can log on right now with the Spiker and experience that, and it is much more risky weapon than either the AMP or Mag-shot for that purpose. If I want to get kills it seems then the X-bow is a clear choice but again that weapon is not really made for uncloaking and short range fire fights. That is the role I wish the Spiker did and i'm sure the vast majority of people who might use the Spiker.

    Yet, like the mag-shot or Amp if you run around with a non-stalk cloak infilitrator or let alone another class you'll find your effective range is not that long relative to your many other weapon choices and you will get out gunned or outclassed more often than not, thus your taking a risk. In other words, it can be effective if your a heavy or engineer as a back up weapon, but if you run around as your main, just take an SMG as it would be more effective, or a normal shotgun or a host of other weapons.

    Thus this is really a choice for stalk cloakers. A normal Hunter cloak infilitrator can use it, but again they can just take an SMG and probably achieve a much more effective Kill potential.

    Please, please please re-work the Spiker. I do like the charge up mechanic, but as an option that I can use for those opportune moments that come up where I see a change for a kill but know it is still a risk, but for normal use something else is needed, and the normal fire mode is not it. Either add another shot (3 shot burst and raise the rate of fire a bit so it is more beamer like). Then I feel I probably can uncloak and if fairly close (say in the same effective range as a Mag Shot or perhaps AMP or perhaps inbetween that distance I can (if I am fairly accruate) get a Kill i.e. like 2 or 3 clicks.

    How about 3 shots to kill which is 1 more than the Mag shot, if it does 167 within 10 m means it is a fairly close range weapon, and 84 dam up to 60 m. If it was 3 shot burst, then 3 shots would kill someone. That might do it. That requires though that you hit all 3 and the rate of fire cannot be too fast, but should be faster than it currently is. I'd say put it on the Test server.

    You can still keep the charge up mechanic as it is, at most, an opportunity attack. Not in a 'oh crap' moment, but rather 'oh look I can try to get that kill' and doing so is a risk. It should be a risk, but the normal combat mode, and the primary combat mode would be that Burst Fire capable pistol. Perhaps allowing it to work more like the TR burst fire weapon, the TR Repeater which is not a bad pistol and if the Spiker was even as effective as the Repeater it might approach be worth buying or spending 1000 certification points on.

    Currently, if I had to price out the Spiker: it is worth like 250 certification points, and 450 SC, which I'd ONLY pay if it were half price, so relaly 225 SC, and still it would not be like 'wow what a great pistol' like I feel with the mag shot or TR Amp which I had zero regrets or agnst over.
  19. Klondor

    Why don't you guys ever use the Beamer of the Manticore? I love using those pistols on my VS, they're quite fine.
    • Up x 1
  20. minhalexus

    This is a tough one for SOE.

    Some want the charge mechanic.
    Some want anything that's unique not in particular the charge mechanic.
    Some only want a burst-fire mode as good as the Desperado, realizing they can't have both since that would be OP.

    I don't really think SOE can make all 3 parties happy by changing one Pistol.