New spiker changes

Discussion in 'Test Server: Discussion' started by gary the sewer hobo, Oct 21, 2014.

  1. HyperMatrix


    As would I. If you're going to make an unimaginative clone of a weapon...you may as well just take the weapon. I bet the NC wouldn't be too happy about trading their Desperado for the Spiker though. Lol.
  2. minhalexus

    Not the current live spiker, but I'm sure many will prefer the current PTS one.
    I'm NC, I would be happy with the current PTS spiker for the current live Desperado.

    So devs, do consider revamping the NC Desperado into the PTS spiker, if VS don't like it.
  3. UnDeaD_CyBorG

    I definitely wouldn't. Only thing it lacks is a heat mechanic. <3
  4. HyperMatrix


    We are in agreement. Get to it, devs. (p.s. I hope you realize they nerfed the refire time between shots from 150 back to 200)
  5. ATRA_Wampa-One

    Even though the Spiker no longer has these stats... lets have some fun shall we?

    DPS

    Desperado 1391 / Spiker 1464 / Repeater 1577

    Reload

    Desperado 1,85 sec / 1.55 sec / Spiker 1.845 sec / 1.53 sec / Repeater 2 sec / 1.71

    Damage per mag / total ammo damage

    Desperado 2338 / 16366 / Spiker 3006 / 21042 Repeater 2352 / 14112

    Accuracy Hip:
    Desperado 1 / 1.5 / 1.5 / 2 / 0.24 / Spiker 1 / 1.5 / 1 / 1.5 / 0.22 / Repeater 1 / 1.5 / 1.5 / 2 / 0.2

    Accuracy ADS:
    Desperado 0.6 / 0.6 / 0.6 / 0.6 / 0.12 / Spiker 0.5 / 0.5 / 0.5 / 0.5 / 0.11 / Repeater 0.8 / 0.8 / 0.8 / 0.8 / 0.1

    Cert cost

    Desperado 1000 / Spiker 1000 / Repeater 0

    I don't know, apart from the damage per mag / total ammo damage the spiker you had a problem with looked balanced to me. Maybe swapping the DPS with the Desperado would be warranted as well but actually comparing all three burst secondaries that looks pretty good.

    And here are the current stats.

    DPS

    Desperado 1391 / Spiker 1336 / Repeater 1577

    Reload

    Desperado 1,85 sec / 1.55 sec / Spiker 1.845 sec / 1.53 sec / Repeater 2 sec / 1.71

    Damage per mag / total ammo damage

    Desperado 2338 / 16366 / Spiker 2338 / 16366 / Repeater 2352 / 14112

    Accuracy Hip:
    Desperado 1 / 1.5 / 1.5 / 2 / 0.24 / Spiker 1 / 1.5 / 1 / 1.5 / 0.22 / Repeater 1 / 1.5 / 1.5 / 2 / 0.2

    Accuracy ADS:
    Desperado 0.6 / 0.6 / 0.6 / 0.6 / 0.12 / Spiker 0.5 / 0.5 / 0.5 / 0.5 / 0.11 / Repeater 0.8 / 0.8 / 0.8 / 0.8 / 0.1

    Cert cost

    Desperado 1000 / Spiker 1000 / Repeater 0
    • Up x 3
  6. nehylen

    I can't access PTS at the moment, so i don't know how that new version fares in terms of charge, but about the damage model, instead of 143, how would you feel about 125?
    I say this because even if it's 499rpm/167 model, VS are let's say a bit too used to having slightly worse copies of a particular weapon that exists for the opposition (bullet drop compensation i suppose; Flare/Gauss SAW S comes to mind), so you might as well give a different model if only to skew perception a bit.

    The initial version of the Spiker was 766rpm/125. While that is too high for what you want to achieve, why not some 652/125 model with a 16 rounds clip? There's no pistol of that kind right now, it's still a lower dps than the Desperado in that configuration (1392dps to 1358dps), though a tad better than 480/167 (1336dps) and it's an even number which is good for 2 or 4 shots burst balance while 143 is odd. Assuming 2/4 shots burst, 143 can be better if the target as nanoweave 1 to nanoweave 3, while 125 would cover nanoweave 0 and nanoweave 4 to 5.

    I'll also add that having a sidearm that feels significantly faster would probably be a welcome change for diversity's sake, considering the current 3 VS pistols are very similar to one another in that respect.


    Edit: could access the PTS and test, i don't know what you're worried about. The alpha damage will ever be a non-issue on the Spiker (or any short range weapon) as long as the first shot in the second firing mode is not a fully charged one. The movement+noise penalty is just too huge for that, even more if you keep that purple flame animation that i saw with the charge mode.
    Having to charge twice, or even once+relying on the sluggish semi-auto fire (it keeps the charge mode refire delay) to finish the target, is not a viable gameplay possibility. It's arguably worse than the live Spiker on that specific possibility.
  7. nehylen

    Can't edit any more but with the immediate switch between fire modes, the sluggish single shot fire delay is actually a non-issue if you switch fast enough. Feels much better that way.

    Also the charge mode seems not to do the equivalent damage of the 4 rounds it currently burns through, as the charge doesn't get through the dummies' shield, needing 3 single shots to finish the target for a total of 7 rounds. I thought it might be a bug, but in the end i don't know if it's intentional considering the 14 rounds clip which is twice that, and the immediate firing mode switch.
  8. minhalexus

    Looks balanced to me.
  9. Edelhonk

    1. i correctet a thing for you....0.8 is still not the same as 0.6

    2. What was your reason to bring in the cert cost??? Needed one more red spot on Spikers side and one more green on Repeaters so someone will fall for it??? When will people like you finally understand that in this game a weapon isnt automaticly better only because it cost cert points/station cash? If this would reality my MSW-R would have all the features it has now + 0.75 movment mult. + 75 round clip...because it costs 250 certs and had to be better then your Orion which came for free. Costs have nothing to do with balance!

    3. it had a reason i didnt bring the Repeater in the direct comparsion...simply because it is a 3 round burst weapon. It needs 3 round for the same damage a Desperado or a current Spiker does in 2 ( 3 x 112 = 336 , 2 x 167 = 334..that is also the reason Repeater per se needs a RoF atleast min 33% higher then the other to reach the same DPS even if it had the same accuracy as a Desperado/Spiker). And that is the exact reason another number in your comparsion is wrong...it is the CoF bloom. Yes it is 0.1/0.2 for the repeater...but this value is multiplied by 2 for a burst instead of 1 like for the Desperado/Spiker (CoF bloom hit after the first shot). And now lets look all your numbers again, shall we?

    DPS

    Desperado 1391 / Spiker 1336 / Repeater 1577

    Reload

    Desperado 1,85 sec / 1.55 sec / Spiker 1.845 sec / 1.53 sec / Repeater 2 sec / 1.71

    Damage per mag / total ammo damage

    Desperado 2338 / 16366 / Spiker 2338 / 16366 / Repeater 2352 / 14112

    Accuracy Hip:
    Desperado 1 / 1.5 / 1.5 / 2 / 0.24x1=0.24 / Spiker 1 / 1.5 / 1 / 1.5 / 0.22x1=0.22 / Repeater 1 / 1.5 / 1.5 / 2 / 0.2x2=0.4

    Accuracy ADS:
    Desperado 0.6 / 0.6 / 0.6 / 0.6 / 0.12x1=0.12 / Spiker 0.5 / 0.5 / 0.5 / 0.5 / 0.11x1=0.11 / Repeater 0.8 / 0.8 / 0.8 / 0.8 / 0.1x2=0.2

    So what left is that the Repeater has the highest DPS (what i never denied...look at post #21 right in this thread) and it has 24 damage more per clip (but if they remove a bullet it couldnt fire 7 bursts per clip anymore like the other 2...only 6.6666 burst...would be stupid, wouldnt it? Or we can ask the devs if they would make a 111 damage per shot model for the reapeater only so it is 3 damage points away from the Desperado/Striker damage per clip...sounds also really stupid to me (not to mention the fact that it would one bullet more to reach the ">1000 damage"-mark).

    Btw...here also lies a point were i maybe made a mistake. If BBurnes decides to reduce the damge to a 143damage/526RoF model the Spiker couldnt kill in 3 burst like the Desperado and the Repeater anymore...it would need 3 and 1 bullet to reach the "more then 1k-damage" spot..it would have higher DPS for sure...but you needed to waste a bullet and one burst more then the other 2 to kill a normal target...dont know if this is worth the "more DPS on paper" it would get from such a change.
  10. HyperMatrix

    This doesn't change the fact that the VS would kill for a pistol like the Repeater (or in my case, the T4 AMP)
  11. Edelhonk

    You can have my AMP for free. i still regret i bought it. You need 11 shots to bring down even a normal target over less then 8m and the AMP starts to spray their shots like a firehose without someone holding it after 5 shots. i prefer any other pistol TR has over the AMP simply because i dont have to stand on my opponents feet to actually kill him.
  12. HyperMatrix


    I only play Stalker on my TR because of the AMP. It's a great Uncloak + Unload + Cloak weapon. Yes...a weapon with 937 rpm has recoil. It's recommended to aim down sight. The point in this game, for Stalker kills, is to kill the target before they have a chance to react. This is in part thanks to network lag, and in part due to human reaction time. The AMP can do this in 0.64 seconds. This type of TTK is completely lacking on VS side. And all the pistols we have are almost identical and clones of other existing pistols. We don't have a single unique pistol. With the exception of the gimmicky new "charge up" on the Spiker.

    The spiker as is, doesn't offer anything that we don't already have through the use of other pistols. On test they had a 4x burst mode for a bit. That was pretty sweet. OP because it was calculating damage at 167. But with a few nerfs and adjustments, that could have been a unique weapon. But now...we get the Desperado. But a little worse TTK. So it's more than just about whether it's a decent pistol or not...but about us not having any good solid pistols, and definitely not having any usable unique ones.
  13. SanPelicano

    Well, I made a little video about the newest spiker today ... Its really impressive... :)

    • Up x 1
  14. sindz

    No its really not. Its sub par in 2x burst and the charge up is gimmicky and doesn't really serve a purpose.
    • Up x 1
  15. Moonheart

    Personnaly I'll strongly argue against the spiker becoming anything like a clone of the Desperado.
    It is an ES weapon, it should stay unique in his own way, a VS way.

    The charge feature is perfectly fit for it (and heat feature could be nice too)... but having this perk means that it cannot be exactly as strong as the Desperado while in "normal mode", or else, the Desperado will become inferior to the Spiker (which doesn't seems to be the point)
    It has to be slightly under the efficiency of the Desperado with the normal fire more, the main word here being "slightly"

    What are the actual damage/falloff damage for a fully charged shot?
    I'd like to test it on the PTS, but I can't do it for technical reasons.

    Also, I think that the numbers shouldn't be what you worry the most. A number is something easy to change in the code, it will take you a few minutes to change it afterward if you see you missed the mark too much... the most important thing is for the mechanic to work well and reliably.

    I often thought that overall on the work of the dev on PS2: you're perhaps trying to change too radicaly the weapons who have a problem in one pass, when tuning up/down the numbers on a weapon slowly each patch cost very few time to do and allow you to see how things evolve progressivly.
  16. SanPelicano

    Have you tried a charged shot + 'B' + 1 burst shot? nearly intakill m8 or at least the ideal ttk is shorter than the human reaction time...

    As I remember you wanted an AoE pistol and here it is. It can kill soldiers with 3 indirect shots....
  17. sindz

    Yes I have, and single shootign while in charge mode is horrible delayed. And if you want to charge shot -> switch fire modes = takes dages.

    Do a TTK comparison on this and the repeater and then get back to me. By the time you charged your shot, you are dead.
  18. ATRA_Wampa-One

    Thanks!

    No really, I had it right on the old PTS Spiker comparison but the formatting got weird for me doing the current PTS Spiker comparison.

    Oh cool, glad you think the Orion Is fine as the starter weapon for the VS since it's performing better than the MSR-W. I mean it gets really obnoxious when people want the Orion nerfed just because it's a great gun for CQC and the other factions have to pony up 250-1000 certs for something similar.

    Which is why I compared DPS as opposed to ROF. Furthermore, the Repeater having a three round burst as opposed to a 2 round burst is both a perk and a drawback. It's a perk since you have three chances to land a shot and finish someone off vs just the two of the Desperado or Spiker but it's a drawback since you'll get more sustained recoil but less recoil per shot.


    When did I say the Repeater was OP? If anything I suggested that the old PTS Spiker was fine provided the damage per mag/total ammo damage was brought inline with the Desperado and it's ROF reduced to that of the current Desperado.
  19. ATRA_Wampa-One

    Why?

    The Cerberus is a complete down grade compared to the Rebel at anything beyond 8m.

    Why can't the Spiker be a clone of the Desperado (like the Manticore is with the Mag-Shot) while having a charge up gimmick so that it's gimmick makes is better than the Desperado?

    That way Rebel > Cerberus, Manticore = Mag-Shot, Spiker > Desperado.

    Then you would have Beamer > Immortal, Repeater > Spiker.
  20. Moonheart

    You seems to assume that the purpose is to make the VS equal to the other empires in the field of sidearms, but we don't know what is the overall balance plan among factions.

    Does the dev have plans to make:
    - the empires strictly equals on the sidearm field?
    - the VS slightly inferior in the sidearm field, and better elsewhere?
    - the VS slightly superior in the sidearm field, and weaker elsewhere?
    ... it is something mysterious to us, and we shouldn't assume too much about it.

    If I compare the Spiker with the Desperado, it's only because BBurness said he something that let me think (but I be wrong) he's trying to achieve something as powerful, but not more.
    It is only guessing from my part, however.