New Player Experience

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by KastianJJ, Sep 8, 2021.

  1. KastianJJ

    Well looking at what we know about the NPE update I'm going to rate the effectiveness of the NPE patch updates... alright let's go.

    Issue number 1: No class counter play against snipers.

    Not solved, most likely made worst. The big issue here is there really isn't a weapon maybe outside of a battle rifle (which we don't have unlocked at level 1) for medium range but at long range it really feels pointless since they will just use their cloak ability and run off after a few shots (if good) or run after someone is close to their spotter (if bad.)

    The only counter play to this is going a stalker infiltrator and hunting them down (not fun for NPE on either side) or to teach players to always be in a vehicle if assaulting a base (not fun for NPE infiltrators)

    There is no solid class interaction/counter play to snipers.

    Issue number 2: Nano-weave

    10% MS reduction doesn't solve anything for the NPE. The issue is the not 1:1 feeling of firing at someone at the firing range to a player who is standing still. IF anything this is the NPE nerf added with the above is easier to snipe players moving slower, and experts have an easier time killing players who aim for the head. IDK if 10% MS is enough of a nerf to really go, oh this is better for X since it's usually better to use cover.

    Issue number 3: Infantry / Vehicle interaction.

    Rocket launchers seem a little lackluster outside of the decimators. Having access to the lock on launchers from the start will be nice for organized squads and new HA's feeling absolutely worthless. A big issue is landing rockets don't feel impact to them.

    For ground vehicles it feels like the best solution is not the HA but the LA with 2 C4. Air might run flares again, IDK with lock on air rockets. but for ground IDK what will happen as the most viable strat that requires 0 team work is being a C4 fairy on a bike. I don't think I've really ever died to a rocket launcher unless I charged the point when I was new to the game.

    Issue number 4: Stealth is already annoying but stealth vehicles?

    You know what's fun, a dude who can one shot you by running you over... but someone you have to fling 2-6 deci rockets with a stealth ant/wraith running you over is not fun. Not to mention it also has the firepower to destroy armoured stuff with rockets. Sure with a non stealth-ed vehicle I've put myself into position for this to happen with lacking awareness.

    I feel it needs to have a reduced timer as it lasts way too long, its way to easy to camp a sundy and run people over.

    Issue number 5: Losers feel like someones EXP grind not like you lost a battle.

    Battles where you're easily winning there is no point to go on an attack to pick off their last sunderer. IF you can hold a base forever, people will try to make sure that happens. Battles for a base can last too long and on the side of the defender. There is no reason to go on the offensive (if anything it benefits the defenders to keep the defence going on forever due to free certs. Since people too spawn way too fast it's hard to attack unless you outnumber em.

    No solution to this, wont have a solution til we get base resource like we do in planetside 1 so the defenders have a reason to push out or structures like towers that give spawns to who ever has it capped.

    Issue number 6: ADS bloom mostly unexplained

    this is compounded by major issues of the client side, why?

    I'm shooting you BR 100 and you're BR 1, I shoot in bursts with a light key press off and on every X bullet- what does that BR 1 see. Me going full auto since client side they see me going full auto and not stopping my burst. That BR 1 has learned, oh everyone goes full auto- but why is my bullets going off to the side at bullet 6 and missing my target while that dude is going full AUTO!


    Death 100: **** this game, going to LMG cause they're made for sustain fire!

    Go Heavy assault, because oh LMG's made for sustain fire- nope just as bad as an smg/pistol/ar/carbine bullets go crazy after the fifth bullets


    The ADS spread is so anti-noob it's prob worst than nano-weave. Compounded by client side making everyone look like they're going full auto. The fact that holding off your mouse button too for even 0.1 second helps also cause a second issue NPE

    Macros, fire macros with your gun, that allow you to pretty much go full auto with no downside since it's based off how long you held M1 not how long you've been firing in ADS.
  2. KastianJJ

    Implants unlocking stuff at rank 5 also again kinda bs certain classes are way better *cough medic healing + shield device*
  3. JibbaJabba

    Issue #5. Fix this way....easily.

    Instead of granting XP for a base capture to those in the hex, Grant EXP for a base cap to a wide radius, say 750m (roughly 1.5 grid squares).


    The current behavior encourages large zergs to form around a base and stay there. You end up with vehicles in an inward facing circle firing at buildings. Eventually the big rewarding cert dump comes, the base flips and like a starting pistol everyone starts rolling to the next base. Attackers have no incentive to move towards an actual fight. Defenders get spawn camped and never bother to retreat up the lattice because no fitght is yet occuring there.

    What this would promote:
    Attackers having taken the capture points hold it while also moving up lattice to stop or possibly suppress defending vehicles from spawning and moving in to rescue the nearly captured base.

    Defenders relocate to where the options are. If suppressed on one base, they'll spawn at the next to fight the attackers there.

    You'll get real organic battlefield play. Attackers defenders will use tactics and strategies that make sense rather than them being artificially twisted by a reward dump. Anyone remember those cool battles that happened right after the warpgate shattered? That's what happens.
  4. Gustavo M

    Truth be told... give newbies whatever you folks want, even free cosmetics -- none of those will matter if said newbies can get "clientsided" by any salty vet. Planetside 2 is a flawed/broken game -- and theres nothing that either y'all or the devs themselves can do about it.
    • Up x 1
  5. JibbaJabba

    I don't think it's the salty vets that are the problem. I'm one of them so might be biased.

    The most horrible new player experience is the spawn room camp. 100+ players with armor and air and maxes pounding away at some 4 to 1 overpop with everyone talking **** in the yell channel. The amount of unsportsman like behavior from these zergs and their leaders is astounding to me.
  6. KastianJJ

    A big issue is, this is game design too.

    Planetside 1 gave players a reason to push out of a base that has the perfect defense that vehichles can't do **** all in- *COUGH ESAMIR/BIO/ECT*. You could stop spawns if the offensive was over powering, but the defense is overpowering they would need to push out because they can make the base neutral by removing the resource drain.

    I feel a lot of issues where introduced since they forgot some of the things that made planetside more interesting. No quick swapping seats made vehicle so easy to 1/2 or 2/3. Needing resources for bases added some passive form of exp. More balanced damage types (tanks couldn't instant kill players so they didn't need to be countered by C4. Sure Planetside 1 had issues but base design made sense. It's kinda funny though after the hate of BFR's we essentially got them back in planetside 2, but since they used treads instead of legs we where fine with em (literally the best solution was to BFR fairy build with a mosc to drop you right under it.)

    Heck I would say PS1 gunplay was even less obtuse than current, it was more a certain implant made balanced imba at early levels *stam shield*, which is the same issue of nano-weave.
  7. MonnyMoony

    Base design is one of the big issues here. How many bases are essentially kill boxes, overlooked by hills that are easily camped by HEAT, HESH, Snipers etc.

    Even those that aren't can be effectively covered off by hovering ESFs running cheese weapons like Banshee and Mustang or my libs raining Dalton rounds.

    Many of the defensive structures that do exist at bases only serve to hinder a counter attack - like the angled structures above spawn rooms - which break your lockons when trying to counter aircraft. How many bases have turrets that are positioned to nowhere or are placed directly behind trees etc.

    Some bases have walls, but they don't serve as battlements as there is usually no way for defenders to get up onto them (aside from LA) and even if they do, they are simply farmed by the aforementioned HESH/HEAT. Again, what should be accessible to the defenders simply hems them into a kill box. There should be more ramps, stairs, lifts etc from the inside of the base up onto the walls - it's crazy that base walls are almost always as accessible to attackers as they are to defenders (I think Nasons defiance on Hossin is a good example of how this should be done)

    Some bases have spawn teleporters that try to spread the defenders out a bot - but how many bases have the teleport room right next door to the main spawn room. If you want to spread defenders out or at least give them a chance - the teleport rooms should be places on the other side of the base.
    • Up x 1
  8. KastianJJ

    I'm agreeing with ya some area's are literally just meat grinders either for the attacker or defender. Most of them are poorly made.
  9. KastianJJ

    Honestly I think the biggest issue though with vehicles is quick swap means it's better to spam a lot of them as 1/2 or 2/3 instead of fully loading up your gunner seats.

    if we removed quick swap we would see a lot LOT less MBT spam. Everyone spamming lightnings for HE rounds?
    Spawn a bunch of lightinngs with AP rounds.

    Honestly the lightning should prob swap too
    AP Round
    HESH Round
    Viper + LMG, have the viper have less splash and do less DPS than an AP round, and the LMG for infantry/air (Aka the classic Lightning)

    So it has to be a dedicated role or play the middle ground.

    MBT's have it so the turret has to be the opposite of the cannon's role, and make the halberd/kobalt/ranger standard

    Have HESH, welp you cant have a kobalt only a ranger or Halberd which needs to be crewed by a second player. Reduce damage of HESH to be way less effective to anything armored.

    Have HEAT, can use the HMG or HMG like guns (the all rounders)

    Have AP, can use the kobalt or ranger. Can never one shot infantry and has 0 splash.

    If you can't quick swap half the MBT's would disapear because people would need to 2/2 em.

    Dont want to play an MBT, and want to be general purpose, you're the viper+lmg

    Make it a custom LMG that spreads that has base inaccuracy but can maintain fire (aka meant for CQC, as they can't snipe people with it.)

    People would than see the lightning and go

    OH HEY that tank cannon has HE, i should avoid it and let the armor deal with it

    OH HEY that tank cannon has no explosion it's AP, i should hunt it!

    Oh hey they have the viper! I should use long range lock on and take it down/scare it away.

    Why does this work?

    Look at Planetside 1 single seat fighters.

    Reaver: Bulky air to ground, slightly resistant to flak, but vunerable to rockets. Was an A2G fighter, if far back it can use it's dual cannons to shoot at air but wouldn't win an engagement against a wasp or mosquito. In between a Libby and mosquito in defense/hp.

    Mosquito: Quick, has a radar that spots targets out and a general purpose HMG. It isn't good in direct engagements but good at picking off distracted targets and harassing them. Also needed by the reaver to find targets as it needs to bomb it's targets and defend it from other mosquito's and wasps.

    Wasp: Really squishy, but fast and can generally **** to ground to air and can only be chased by other wasps. Has a good cannon for bursting air or quickly hitting something and running out but doesn't have the sustained firepower of a mosquito, need to be in groups to use it's alpha damage.

    Infantry see's a wasp, oh okay that's not scary. I can ignore it knowing it wont kill me, but if I have something I should try and scare it off. Infantry see's a Mosquito, oh I can win if it tries to engage on me, but it will generally wait for me to be distracted and use it's cannon with a bit of splash to take me out or just harass me to keep me busy as I can't ignore it or it will kill me over time. Infantry see's a reaver, oh **** oh **** I don't have a rocket launcher or anti-air I need to get to cover before it can hover over me.

    The power of infantry is always that it's multi-purpose in planet-side 1
    The power of taking a vehicle seat is you've got a specific focus and you cant just jump out or swap.

    You trade adaptability for speed, resistant to small arms, and focus. Where an infantry can be both anti-infantry + anti-air + anti-tank.

    Your go into a Reaver you're purely A2G, you will not win an A2A engagement. You will need your allies to protect you (infantry/skyguards/mosq/wasp's)

    You go into a mosquito and you won't win in direct engagements and have to harass enemies and support your team, if you where a basic infantry you would have a better TTK by 2x. If you sit still and get close you will get ripped apart. You've traded damage for speed and information warfare (spotting). If I go to a wasp I can take out lightly armoured vehicles if they have no AA and I surprise them while they're focused on another or Air, but anything else I lose hard too.

    This rock, paper, scissors though is what makes things LIKE the mosquito useful. You can spot out what the enemy is doing to counter them. But an enemy outfit could wait for you to relay that than swap out so actively keeping info is very important. Look at any combined arms game and generally the power of infantry is adaptability, as any vehicle that tries to be good at everything just dies to every other vehicle that specializes just a smidge more than it. But in Planetside 2, every vehicle can do everything which tears apart the balance of infantry.
  10. BlackFox

    Another point I would add are the shooter mechanics (recoil, damage + bullet drop and bullet velocity). New players will get into the game expecting something like the older Battlefields when it comes to the gunplay. Prior FPS gaming experience does little to nothing when it comes to Planetside.
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  11. JibbaJabba

    This is "inside the box" thinking.

    Ain't no hesh or banshees raining down on the next base over on the lattice.


    Maybe defenders are suppressed in a spawn.
    Maybe suppressed on the teleporter side too.

    They aren't suppressed at the next base over though.
    They aren't suppressed at the Sunderer at the halfway point between bases.

    But nobody goes there. The player base does not play the map. They play "the base".

    Mid base fighting including all that vehicle fighting that the tankers and pilots crave is sporadic and mostly occurs during a brief period as a zerg see the capture complete and they move down the lattice.

    When a base is being taken there should be a serious battle occurring between the base and the next up the lattice. But it doesn't.

    Because there is an artificial factor introduce into what should be organic fighting: The dump of certs that occurs ONLY for those in the hex when the capture timer finally hits 0.

    Those that were doing anything that made sense like pushing up the lattice get nothing. And because they don't go there, nobody goes there to fight them either.

    It contributes greatly to the zerg spawn camp that wrecks new player experience.

    Easily fixed. Like paragraph of code type ****.
    • Up x 1
  12. JibbaJabba

    This is a really good idea that would push teamwork. It would kill the single player dalton too.
  13. KastianJJ

    It's prob its the main reason why people spawn HESH.

    Go AP, you get 0 splash solutions to infantry that is on par with HESH, but HESH is only a slight downgrade in TTK

    Run an Halberd or faction specific AT ontop and boom, AI and AT all in one.

    Sure you could go AP/Halberd, but you will die by a medic who runs up at you or forced to retreat to any infantry with a menacing look. So you're forced to play defensive.

    Honestly even ARMA doesn't let you swap this fast (generally takes 4 seconds to swap but the thing is TTK is REALLY low from anything, you can be taken out by one rocket as a tank or put out of commission. Everything has a short TTK to their respective counter. Planetside 1 was the opposite where everyone had a 2.5 to 5 second TTK, even the tanks dealing with equal force of infantry and the damage types where more balanced.

    Mortar = Good versus light armour (buggies/maxes/atv's and harassing infantry)
    HMG = Good versus all but worst than infantry weapons for TTK

    LMG = Good versus infantry (tickles everything else)
    Tank Cannon/Rocket = Good versus Armour and light armour (Bad versus infantry)
    Flak = Good versus Air (tickles everything else)

    Vanguards/Magrider/Prowler couldn't charge at infantry because 2 dudes with decimators could well decimate it. So it would have to use it's mobility, armor and cannon. But at far ranges it doesn't have the ability to rip infantry to shreds. Where the ES launchers where better at range but took more man power to quickly take out a tank or plane.

    EVERYTHING was balanced around if you go into a vehicle you put your TTK into a collective, single seaters you essentially swapping out your weakness. You melt just as fast to your counters, you melt a little slower generally because you lost the benefits of infantries adaptability.

    It also didn't help that getting in/out took 3 seconds so a total of 6 seconds. Heck we could keep swapping just make it take 6 seconds and another people will not 1/2 or 2/3. Have swapping stop you from moving/shooting/reload and boom swapping seats is balanced like ARMA/Planetside 1. Making getting out take 3 seconds also balanced tanks just getting out of the seat instantly and weapon swapping.

    Planetside 1 you 1/2 a magrider/vanguard or 2/3 a prowler.
    Your cannon does **** all to infantry
    Infantry charges your position. You die
    You get out of the vehicle. You die
    You retreat. They did their job

    Planetside 1 you 1/2 the BFR
    Your cannon murders infantry and you can kite them
    Infantry charges your position. They die
    Air charges your position. They die
    Tank charges your position. They die

    Planetside 2 you 1/2 an MBT
    Your cannon does **** all to infantry
    Infantry charges your position. You quick swap to your AI/AA weapon and kill them
    You get out of the vehicle instantly and kill the player as they're the one punished for your bad play since they have to spend 1-2 seconds swapping to their main gun.

    Planetside 2 designed the MBT off BFR principles.
  14. iller

    No the #1 reason new players quit is actually the Veteran community's fault in a round about way. The devs only want to tell us about the statistics of the players who quit within the first hour or two. So did Commander Cyrious. And these same exact personalities then go to try and silence every newish player who DOES make it past those first couple hour marks... but then feels that they can't win any gun fights because all of their enemies are "Cheaters".

    Well guess what. A Lot of their more experienced counterparts are skirting the line of cheating but we don't do anything about it because we've just accepted that there's no way to address the absolutely JANKY reality of Client-Sided™ round trip Latency. My own outfit leader coaches new recruits on lots of these tricks, exploits, and mechanics abuses to help them understand why they're usually making themselves sitting targets all the time. And the worst thing that any of these new players ever did really, was just try to actually play the game the way that other more modern FPS games are played.

    It's not their faults that our own community won't take this massive "Poor Coding" issue seriously. Infact it's an entirely perverse incentive our community has where we'd rather keep the advantages we're Meta-Gaming, than have more new players stick around
    • Up x 2
  15. KastianJJ

    Im going to say this game biggest issue is the entire thing from the code need's a rework which is why I guess why they're making a supposed planet side 3.

    Combined arms is goofed up.

    Air can be shoved out of a position with a **** ton flak max's or sky guards. But lock on launchers don't work as they dont have enough range but hit hard. To the point air gets fire system is picked not flares.

    Tanks only just camp from afar since C4 furries take them out instantly, where it takes a squad of RL.

    Infantry are pointless on the field, maybe outside of roaming explosive X-bow infils who are better at taking out tanks than roaming Heavy assaults.

    The net code is goofed with no server authority which allows high ping players / lag switches be fine which allows absurd disconnect times (if you disconnect for longer than a second nothing should count... you would be dead. This is also why most mmofps game player count try to increase the TTK not lower it. So the game isn't about the first engagement which is the entire issue of PLANETSIDE 2 the TTK is 0.4-0.6 which means anyone around 100-200 ping can most likely kill you without ever seeing you or uncloak.

    Longer TTK would also make the game play around more team work strategies, you could run at them in no man's land of no cover which is risky. But you could as a group work on surrounding and flanking.
  16. iller

    You could give them SIX different teleporters placed all over the base, but you're still not "spreading" them out along the actual *Roles* of combined arms. The "kill box" being described here is only one of:
    1. A) People on the defense side who are either new and lacking Certs or ppl who feel more comfortable only playing Infantry most of the time -- IE: the ONLY people that the Devs actually listen to...
    2. B) People who'd rather stay in Vehicles because they recognized a long time ago that infantry Gunplay has way too short of a TTK for the amount of Clientsiding and other Exploits that are allowed in said gunplay.
    The real problem as to why this gets so Lopsided, is that the dedicated vehicle zergs end up avoiding eachother somehow and the infantry zergs typically avoid eachother as well so it's more often the vehicle zerg will keep getting pushed back UNTIL they get to one of the bases where they actually *can* perch up on a hill and shoot down onto an exposed point. These kinds of bases are a lot less common than your post attempted to paint them as. It just doesn't become a Camping situation at the other bases so the infantry Zerg rolls through those bases at the literal speed of the cap timers while the couple of lousy Vehicle-Campable bases see that progress slowed down significantly resulting in the *feeling* that the KillBox effect happens more often than it actually does.
    And unlike the Original Poster, I'm under no delusions that just requiring resource/Cortium deliveries to a Base to maintain its SCU's or Nanites will actually solve the problem like people all claim it did in PS1. And I'm someone who probably spends 80% of the his playtime driving an ANT around keeping silos above the 20k cortium threshold.
    This would only create a situation where the faction with the most useless cowardly "PvE'ers" in Cloak ANTs would simply have the easiest time creating a Defensive slog against a much more nimble and coordinated Offense. Experienced ANT drivers can also run Turbo and Battle ANT loadouts and actually contribute more to defense than simply refilling an Obtuse and binary respawn-mechanic for the defense.
    If it was up to me, the "Resource Silos" for the Hex bases would be spread around outside the bases meaning that the Base's defenders would also have to come out of the base in Vehicles to defend the base's resources. And once those Silos were destroyed, it wouldn't just be like an SCU being destroyed, the spawn room shields would stay up but everyone spawning inside would have 20% less Medkits/C4 access, ability meter, health, and shield-regen for each Resource Silo that was destroyed. ONLY THEN would it be appropriate to just place more Teleporter exits out of the main spawn room. (I'd also enact the same debuff on people spawning from Routers depending how on FAR away the routing spire is from where they're dropping the it to basically require BaseOwners to build closer to the front lines like they used to do when HIVEs were a way to win).

    Any cortium deliveries to these silos would simply give those Silos a larger "Virtual Hitpoint Pool" through an automatic Repair effect allowing them to withstand a longer "siege".
  17. OneShadowWarrior

    You nailed it on this post.

    The NPE is a complete step in the wrong direction.
  18. DeadlyOmen

    No amount of game tweaking will change dumb play behavior.

    If a team has to go all the way to a spawn point in order to find the enemy, it is the enemy's fault.
  19. JibbaJabba

    mmm, You can tweak the game to make this not happen as much.
  20. JibbaJabba

    We have accepted there is no way to get around the client side mechanics because ... wait for it ... there is no way to get around the client side mechanics.

    You can not perform the network prediction server side in a game of this scale. There is a reason that games that user SERVER-side prediction never realistically scale past 64 vs 64 (planetside does double that in a single hex).

    So. Move on.
    • Up x 1