Nerfs/buffs are far too dramatic.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by teks, Apr 17, 2014.

  1. teks

    No matter how you feel about the following nerfs or buffs. The magnitude of the changes are way too high for a game thats been out as long as this one, and its a serious problem. This is just one patch I've used to indicate a long running trend in every patch. The percents by which SOE changes things in the game are far, far too high, and its causing many issues.
    • Timer on the max rank of nanorep was nerfed 33%
    • Enforcer's rounds per clip was nerfed by 25% (additional nerf to reload speed on top of this in the same patch)
    • Saron's direct hit damage nerfed by 45%
    • Saron's inner blast radius buffed 100% (just gotta note, why are we punishing good aim and encouraging spam fire? Kind of odd.)
    • Vanguard shield duration nerfed 25%
    • Shield strength nerfed 33% (kind of redundant if the duration was reduced)
    • Prowlers heat blast radius nerfed by 33% (AP is now likely a more effective AI weapon then heat due to velocity)
    • Vulcan COF buffed 25%
    • The lynx (no numbers can describe the changes)
    • The engy turret (several nerfs applied at once. Sledgehammer nerf)
    I'm not making a point on any specific buff or nerf here. I'm just pointing out a trend where SOE's nerfs and buffs don't balance. They just turn something which is too strong into something which is too weak. Its overkill, and its been hurting the game a lot. We need to stop going so dramatic with these balance passes if were going to achieve balance.

    These dramatic changes, which offer no refunds, hurt the playerbase and hurt the games balance when they should be doing the opposite. Noone likes it when their weapon's role is completely changed from one month to another. Players feel more reluctant to invest in anything, and many straight up quit when their playstyle was completely removed from the game.

    Balance should be very subtle changes done with careful testing, thought, and, most importantly, communication with the playerbase. Its no surprise that most of these dramatic nerfs/buffs get turned around the very next patch, and even then the change may leave the weapon worse then it was before it was when it was buffed in the first place.

    Some famous examples of the worst of these
    • The magrider nerf- Took at least three subsequent buffs to make magriders even usable again.
    • The harasser nerf- So many nerfs were applied at once that one of the most popular vehicles in the game suddenly disappeared almost completely.
    • HE nerf- two nerfs applied at the same time made left the weapon inferior to heat/ap in 90% of scenarios.
    • Striker nerf- In SOE's defense the weapon is impossible to balance, and should be changed, but it went from the best RL in the game to the worst in a single patch.
    • AV turret nerf- Same as above, but again, several nerfs applied at once without testing leave the turret in a poor state. Might as well remove it and give refunds, it was ugly anyway.
    • Viper buff- You can't put a number on its december buff because it was a change in resistance values, but it easily received at least double the AV strength in one patch.
    No refunds, little warning, and its killing the game.

    Please stop doing this.
    • Up x 13
  2. minhalexus

    I loved this patch even though i didnt find any NC buffs.

    Mainly because harassers are better now, opens up a whole new type of gameplay.

    Viper nerf was called for and NAR nerfed was needed for ESFs only.
    • Up x 1
  3. teks

    I would counter by saying that if the harassers weren't nerfed 5 times over in one patch it wouldn't need a buff. It doesn't open a new type of gameplay as much as its bringing back a type of gameplay they completely killed.
    • Up x 2
  4. Chowley

    I have to agree the balancing process they employ is absolute insanity.
    • Up x 2
  5. z1967

    Soon (obviously a joke so don't mount me on a pole or something)
    Walking Adjustment
    -Our data crunching magic machines have determined that walking is out performing all other modes of transportation. We are nerfing walkspeed by 30% along with making it so that you can no longer shoot and walk. We also blocked even more windows because F-U Light Assaults! Also made it so that tanks and aircraft are small enough to fit indoors (btw, this would have been a great april fools joke. Just saying) and buffed liberator so that it requires 3 skyguards, 4 esfs, and a walrus in order to take one down.
    • Up x 5
  6. teks

    [IMG]
    too late
    • Up x 4
  7. Cinnamon

    The idea behind making dramatic changes like that is fairly sound as far as I can tell. Too small changes and it is very hard to see if the change made any difference at all and you don't know how much of a change is too little.

    The problem is when you don't have any follow up adjustments quickly enough or if you make too many changes all at once so you don't know what was too much.
  8. Bankrotas

    People are too dramatic.
    • Up x 3
  9. DevDevBooday

    Yeah, cuz the Prowler Vulcan buff was dramatic. -_-

    The Prowler vulcan needs a dramatic buff to bring it up to being an actual weapon.

    The buff they gave it was disgusting.

    If the Vulcan was a totalled car, crumpled, twisted and broken, the recent fix that SOE gave it would be like changing the oil and saying its good to go.

    Its a wreck SOE you need to drastically fix it. It wasnt even better than Enforcer or Saron BEFORE the 95% range nerf and 50% damage nerf.

    You could buff it to what it was originally and no one would complain, just as no one did in the beginning.
    It was the Vulcan-H that people had the problem with.
  10. teks

    Thats the idea. You shouldn't notice the changes. There are actually a number of good examples in the patchnotes as well. Small tweaks to the kobalt, and the ranger. Those are good. They will stick. Those are how balance passes should be done. Balances passes shouldn't be attention grabbing game changers.
    And I'm including multiple changes at once in the magnitude of changes. Its up to you if you want to think they are separate. I don't feel that they are. Well, they are I admit. they are worse because it goes against your first point. IF you make so many dramatic changes how can you tell what worked.
  11. teks

    Yeah, I'm only posting numbers. Going back once again, why does the vulcan suck? BEcause it was nerfed big time.

    I'm sorry I should have added that to the list of the best examples.
  12. UberBonisseur

    Nice stake duuuuuuude !
    [IMG]
  13. teks

    It was the only pic I could find that wouldn't get me banned :D impaling is graphic!
  14. Cinnamon

    Well what I am saying is that several smaller changes is a bad thing. It's the "death by a thousand cuts" sort of situation. A balance change that is not a good thing for the game is slowly crept in small change by small change until people feel that the game is not as much fun as it used to be but nobody can quite say why or if they are just being nostalgic.
  15. teks

    I'd disagree there. Almost every successful game does small balance passes over a period of time. Most famous example is the incredibly fun and balanced starcraft 2.

    SOE has tons of numbers in their game. They cans ee what may be too strong, and they can see the shifts when they change it. Its not hard to determine the effect of a small change.

    As for the 'fun' there are updates for that which add content. Thats what keeps games like this fresh.
    Fun is the new carbines.
    Fun is not the huge nerfs to vehicle secondaries people have invested thousands of certs in. I can garuntee you the enforcer nerf, the saron nerf, and the prowler heat nerf were all too much. They didn't balance those things at all. Those players are very upset.
    Is it fun for people who don't use those weapons? also no. Vanguards will use halberds, magriders will use PPA, prowlers will shift to AP. Same problem just that now their old tactics and investments were a waste of time.
  16. MostlyClueless

    Yeah do small incremental buffs to the C85 Canister and the Vulcan and they'll be good to go just as soon as the Heat Death of the Universe finishes up.
    • Up x 1
  17. teks

    The cannister may be a failed concept. PRobably the same with a vulcan. Tanks aren't made for close up combat.Secondaries for close up combat when they can barely aim down...yeah.

    But, again, why does the vulcan suck? Because they took a nerf hammer to it in december and completely destroyed the weapon.
  18. MostlyClueless

    The patch notes are littered with guns getting small adjustments, the ones getting hit harder are likely outliers. Is anything broken this patch? Everything feels good, even the AV Turrets are still perfectly usable and they got nerfed to hell.
  19. Halon

    The percentages are irrelevant, especially if any one thing is severely imbalanced.

    The harasser was nerfed hard though. The AV turret wasn't nerfed enough.

    The problem with arguing that the game has been out long enough is that they add new weapons and add whole new dynamics, like the empire AV launchers and the AV turret. Also, all players started with zero certs. There's a big gap from having all new players with zero certs and stock tanks to having players with fully certed tanks.

    Balance will be ongoing.

    I think Higby has mentioned that game balance swings like a pendulum, if its too strong one way, they try to get it where it should be and if it ends up too weak, they swing it back to a bit strong, etc. Until they get it where it should be.
    • Up x 1
  20. teks

    AV turrets are crap.
    Nanorep is pretty much useless for ground vehicles.
    Enforcer is crap compared to the halberd now.
    No reason for a prowler to use heat over AP anymore. They are better off getting direct hits, and keeping their AV power.

    Was there a ton of examples this patch? no, but it was also a pretty small patch. I've been watching this happen for a year, and they are pretty stupid. Most of the incremental buffs are reactions to overnerfing them before hand. Or the opposite. Viper, vulcan, harasser for example.