[Suggestion] NC Shotgun Max OP?

Imagine having a discussion on game balance where one side has exclusive access to multiple counters to their counter as well as typically a nice and small 60% DPS advantage and its being considered "some stats" and not really that important.

Double posting like a boss because I can.
(actually just lazy)

The only AI weapons a NC MAX should care about aside from getting auraxiums are the Scatters and Mattocks.

Take those to the VR and shoot some 40-50m targets, then hop to TR/VS and do the same with whatever amazing AI weapon you think they have and if you can free your mind from the heavy bias of shotguns having bad range you will notice that they are all equally garbage at those ranges and the deciding factor is not accuracy but pure RNG.

Bonus points if you walk around as you would in combat because the shotguns are much less affected by the movement penalty than the others.

You can obviously have attempts where the Blueshift or whatever donks the target 2-3 times in the head almost right away but its not like the Mattock or even Scatters cant or wont bring the same target down with just 2-3 shots each for a similar or faster TTK. Pure RNG.

Up close though the shotguns actually holds true to the shotgun bias of being super strong.

Imagine that those counters do have downsides that are conveniently ignored and that the advantages are blown way out of proportion, and that you can prove this by showing how well it does in a real environment by taking the performance stats of the best of the best all the way to the worst of the worst of users and forming an informed opinion on that instead of some dumb theorycraft that just downplays any advantage of the thing you pretend is weak.

agreed, and as i just mentioned scatts lose over 60% of their damage by 20m.
and yes i have shot training dummies, i've been playing since 2013, ofcourse i've shot plenty of dummies with all 3 maxes.
with the exception of mattocks, NC max has the worst range of the 3, that is simply a fact.

on the subject of mattocks, while they have range, they sacrifice the typical firepower of a shotgun for it.
having only a 0.1 ttk difference to blueshifts and mercies (and only within 8m) but with fewer kills per reload.

I dont see how my theorycrafting is any worse than you and fellow NC mains arguments considering, as usual, I am the only one even trying to put some backing behind my words rather than just leaving your personal opinion as facts.

The stats we have available does actually show Scatters performing better then both Mercies and Blueshifts, Mattocks being better/on par with them so I dont really get your point here, Scatters even have a much lower average BR rating than the others while still outperforming them.

Perhaps you could elaborate on the downsides of the shield and instantly killing infantry up close instead of leaving some vague insinuation that there are big issues with them so TR/VS are not missing out on not having them as counters against what usually kills MAXes?

The only reason I included Mattocks in the "weapons NC MAXes should care about" is that they have decent accuracy at range while still having better DPS than Mercies/Blueshifts so they cant be said to be bad by any definition aside from "compared to Scatters". The only AI weapon a NC MAX needs is Scatters, Mattocks can be a viable side/downgrade but there is no need to use them because MAXes unironically fighting infantry at +20m is not a thing aside from the few occasions they fire a few shots at someone while walking/running to their position.

Scatters losing 60% damage over range sounds like a lot until you say that dual Scatters still throw out 20 pellets doing 50 damage each every second(2.1 shots per second) and that they do 60% more damage than Mercies up close. The range both wants to be when fighting.

I wont disagree that the NC MAX has the worst range of the 3, the point is that its marginally worse and pretty much does not matter because no faction is using their MAX as some +20m infantry domination machine(well... Defector does exist).

It's not OP if it's blue. Only purple is allowed to be OP.

You dont know the downsides of the shield?

For example, during the raising and lowering animation it does not protect at all, which is a pretty sizeable amount of time, enough time for a C4 to be placed and detonated as by the time you see it land in place your opponent can already press the trigger most of the time. It also only protects from the clientside direction. A player shooting you in the side while strafing around you while you track it with your shield on your screen is absolutely going to hit you and not your shield. It doesnt mean the shield is useless, but its not the magic instant protection you make it out to be. Also strange to be tooting the OP horn so loudly if you dont even know how it works. Smells a lot like the “Vanguard shield IWIN button!” Crowd who claim that by gods hairy mammary glands they storm any opponent and win the battle in a CQC slugfest by activating that shield!

care to share the stats available? I havent so far as each time I post stats all I get is a “but actually I’m moving goalposts/use an anecdote to say I dont believe you/whatever”. And when I look at those stats the NC MAX is doing good but its not as if its massively outperforming anything. Also that OHK is rather overrated, anyone check that sweet sweet STK average? Halve it ofcourse.

and that is how a certain Dev would love it to be. Nerf all TR and NC.....but do lots of sneaky Buffs for the VS.

If you have heavies circling around you with launchers you are pretty doomed for sure, same with if you are slow on noticing the C4 landing on your feet.

But how is that worse than the alternatives the other factions have?
They are doubly dead in those situations since they dont even have the chance to react fast enough to it to begin with. If a NC MAX cant kill or pull out their shield in time before they die to a C4, VS/TR wouldnt survive it either but there are cases where a NC MAX can react fast enough and kill/pull out the shield fast enough to survive where VS/TR would not.

The OHK is valuable because it can save you from a launcher or C4 to the face when someone goes around a corner. The shield can do the same thing. The thing giving the OHK ability is the massive amount of damage being done which also translates into being the clear winner in any AI MAX on AI MAX violence in all the 99% of places they would fight each other, up close and often around corners/doorways.

Even if a NC MAX gets caught in a bad spot(long range) can whip out their shield and back off, what are they going to do? come close?
Its very similar to how a decent Vanguard driver wont just pop their shield on reaction when taking damage unless they have to. Get to cover and repair because again, what are they going to do? get close? Vanguard will slap them any which way in close range combat if it has its shield still, even with half health.

Thats the power of being unmatched in CQC combat, you can push enemies and kill them up close but they cant push you nearly as easily since you still have the advantage if the get close and that goes for both a Vanguard and a NC MAX.

HA peeking a corner with a deci can often both fire and escape from a TR/VS MAX but a NC MAX can kill them, sometimes fast enough that they cant even get the shot off. It can also stand there with the shield up... what now? shoot the shield? wait too long and you might get caught by clientside because something that definitely is clientside is lowering the shield and blasting their face with the shotguns.

As for how the shield works, I do think it depends a bit on the stuff being used. I think C4 and grenades etc are actually on the victims client rather than the one throwing them because looking at them with the shield has like a 95% chance of blocking the damage. I cant say its 100% because it has happened that a blast has hit me through the shield like that though its rare. Launchers are ofc on the attackers client but yeah, if they are close enough to circle your shield you are either entirely alone and swarmed with enemies or they are dead, shotguns up close and all that.

and I mean, what is the alternative? how would Repair, Zealot or Anchor be more useful in that situation?
Even in the event that the shield fails at first with blocking its still more useful than any other ability because ow, you ate a deci to the face but now the shield is up and you are backing away for cover/repairs and that shield has a little more health than your entire MAX has, they have to kill you twice before you go down.

VS/TR MAX in the same spot would be half dead and running for its life praying the Repair will repair its 20% over 12 seconds FASTER, while everyone is shooting it in the back. Or its possibly dead if its backing away shooting as the Repair slooooowly heals them. Add any engineers repairing and the shield just gains even more value because now you are definitely surviving any chip damage getting past the shield.


And no I wont bother with the stats because as you said, the stats that we can see are not great and fairly volatile, its available on Voidwell for anyone wanting to see them but Scatters do perform better than most especially if you look at more 'relevant' days like Saturday when most people play and thats also when they tend to be on top. So I dont think its really worth focusing on but its definitely not a point to be made for NC MAXes not performing better than the others, the stats can at least show that much.

My argument is mainly about where MAXes are generally used, which is close range combat and what MAX does best there which is the NC MAX.

If I were instead to rank them by AV ability I would easily put the VS MAX as nearly uncontested #1, same for LONG range infantry killing. Not because of Blueshifts but because Vortex is actually nearly criminally undervalued both as a AV weapon and AI weapon.
Reality of it is though that basically everyone is just using MAXes to kill infantry and they do it up close, even 30m is more like a "I am just shooting at things while I walk to my next spot, likely the door these enemies came out of" thing rather than anyone actually trying to hold that range and kill stuff.

Because they have range to actually prevent it in the first place? You know how the defense onion works I hope? Not getting shot at by the weapon that can kill you is superior than having a shield or potential OHK ability. Also when C4 is thrown at MAX’s the thrower tends to have surprise, hence their opportunity to actually have C4 in hand and throw it at the target. Then basic concepts like the latency system and server latency take over and by the time the MAX can see the C4 land at their feet the user can pull the trigger. Even if they had perfect latency, the time it takes to raise the shield would be enough to detonate the C4 and still get the kill.

You are not really making any sense here, where and how will multiple HAs swarm around your MAX(and very likely ball/group of supporting infantry) at ranges of like 40-50m while still being in plain view for several seconds where a TR/VS MAX would have the ability and time to gun them down before they can shoot their launchers?

And yes not getting shot at by the weapon that can kill you is superior, that is why instantly killing someone walking around a corner with a Deci is in fact a big advantage to have. The shield is just a backup to that advantage and the others dont get the shield either.

Ah yes anything that doesnt kill instantly doesnt matter. Like ammo capacity, uptime, accuracy, range, the chance of enemies actually hitting you back etc. Lets just ignore everything and boil it down to “but NC might OHK you”. That sounds fair.