[Suggestion] NC Shotgun Max OP?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by AntDX316, Dec 16, 2022.

  1. AntDX316

    NC Shotgun Max is OP as they Single Tap and I'm dead everytime. Only way to counter is either to have C4 or have another Max but if not they just dominate indoors. : (
    • Up x 1
  2. blackboemmel

    I absolutely recommend you to try out that NC MAX before telling it's OP.

    For me personally NC AI MAXes are the worst. Their range sucks and they need to reload after 1-3 kills... which gets them killed too often. With a TR/VS MAX i can easily clean a full room and still have enough rounds to kill that C4 fairy coming at me.
    • Up x 3
  3. Botji

    I think its generally accepted that NC MAXes are 2, 3, 4 steps above both VS and TR MAXes, the only ones who would argue otherwise are those with obvious NC main bias. The entire "NC MAXes are bad at range!" thing is just a myth created by NC mains thinking the other factions somehow have better accuracy over range even when they have similar or worse CoF.
  4. Demigan

    Not right now at least. A quick look when taking both arms simultaneously the NC MAX scores high but not exceedingly so compared to the best performing VS/TR weapons.

    This is similar bias to regular shotguns, which are lauded for "oh noes they can 3-shot kill!" But pretty much all shotguns struggle to outperform even the starter Carbines/LMG's and definitely struggle against the high performing weapons of most other weapon classes.

    I wish there was some way to see the amount of deaths as well. For example with the NC Vanguard we could find it on PS2Alerts and use it to prove the NC Vanguard dies the most while getting the lowest performance of all 3 MBT's. Having access to MAX deaths would let us gauge (heh) the risk involved between the 3 MAX's and the effect a CQC weapon has on a class most vulnerable to some close range AV options. Perhaps its a boon letting the CQC MAX defend itself more easily when enemies get close or its a detriment as enemies have an easier chance getting close in the first place, who knows until we find that data!
    • Up x 2
  5. Botji

    Except I dont really care how badly a bunch of NC potatoes does with their MAX, the NC MAX can do a lot of things none of the others can. A slightly skilled player can and will take advantage of that and it is that I am basing my opinion on.

    Instantly killing someone up close is amazing, it can save you from launchers and C4.
    The insane DPS up close is amazing for killing other MAXes, no one stands a chance.
    The Aegis shield can let you regenerate health with auto-rep/Berserk or just while some Engineers repair you and you act as meat shield, protect you from C4/AV mine/launchers, it also lets you push and retreat giving you much better survivability than any other MAX.

    Because the kicker is that most/all fighting with MAXes is almost face to face range, even if the other factions would have had a imagined range advantage it doesnt matter because no one is using it.

    The only weak spot the NC MAX has in terms of gameplay is the anti-ground vehicle weapons and hitting fast moving vehicles/aircraft which is like 0.5% what people use a MAX for so doesnt matter, perhaps one day VS will bring out a bunch of Vortex MAXes and dominate out in the field but I doubt it.

    Since I am bored, I can give some numbers for perspective. Dual weapons so damage, DPS and damage per reload is 2x.

    Scattercannon: 2808 DPS - 1300 damage per shot - 2.1 per second - 13000 damage per reload - Ammo Dump time ~4.6 seconds
    Hacksaw: 2722 DPS - 750 damage per shot - 3.6 per second - 9000 damage per reload - Dump time ~3.3 seconds
    Grinder: 2160 DPS - 1000 damage per shot - 2.1 per second - 22000 damage per reload - Dump time ~10 seconds
    Mattock: 2034 DPS - 672 damage per shot - 3 per second - 9408 damage per reload - Dump time ~4.6 seconds

    Heavy Cycler: 1904 DPS - 286 damage per shot - 6.6 per second - 17160 damage per reload - Dump time ~9 seconds
    Mutilator: 1904 DPS - 286 damage per shot - 6.6 per second - 28600 damage per reload - Dump time ~15.1 seconds
    Onslaught: 2050 DPS - 250 damage per shot - 8.2 per second - 15000 damage per reload - Dump time ~7.3 seconds
    Mercy: 1774 DPS - 250 damage per shot - 7.1 per second - 12500 damage per reload - Dump time ~7 seconds

    The main thing to take away from this is that NC damage per shot/instance is so high that all their AI weapons are pretty much massive overkill with 2 shots, meaning a few missed pellets and damage drop off wont matter unless you are plinking at non-MAX range for whatever reason. Hold a door or something like everyone else. Scattercannon is such a absurd weapon that it regularly 1 hit kills even with some missed pellets.

    The second thing to take note of is that the RoF on these are not bad, 2-3 per second is as the DPS numbers show, more than good.

    The third thing people might notice that the damage per reload is typically lower for the poor NC MAX, that is indeed one of the "advantages" of TR/VS AI MAX weapons. If you stare long enough at them they will eventually do a lot of damage to you, great advantage.

    Yes, that was sarcasm because the last point of importance is the Ammo Dump time, how long it takes to dump all that damage into something so lower is better and following along with the DPS, NC obviously absolutely crushes in this department... aka they will kill your MAX waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay faster than you will kill theirs given you are both not potatoes and cant hit each other 5m away when you are fighting over who owns the doorway/room, eventually the higher damage per reload might win then but it should be a hard sell to say that the NC MAX is balanced if it whiffs like 50% of the shots given how close range these fights are.

    So yeah, I dont care how good or bad the average NC potato can do with their MAX or what any stats might say because any half skilled player can and will take advantage of things like ludicrous DPS + the best defensive ability. That its even being argued about is silly.

    All MAXes will kill infantry really fast up close, the point is that with the current lack of balance NC MAXes can/should dominate other MAXes up close which is a definite advantage but it never ends there, the shield and actual instant death are also big advantages to their survivability and its these things that make them 'the best'.

    I am also aware that I did not do the VS weapons, I intended to do them too but now im not bored anymore but instead tired so cant be arsed. Anyone complaining can feel free to do them yourself.
  6. Demigan

    Except that the range of TR/VS MAX's absolutely does matter, they dont just fight at the same range, they are well capable of similar feats by just holding the trigger and looking at opponents in CQC, and generally dont seem to be underperforming to the NC MAX.
    • Up x 2
  7. AntDX316

    The grenade printer NSO Max is the absolute worst to get kills with. I will try using the NC Scatter Max later.
  8. AntDX316

    Indeed the NC Max at close range is OP as it can single shot kill when done right. I have no problems killing the NC Maxs with the A2G Scythe though especially if they are using Shotgun. PPA and Hornets/Dual Photons next to them if they are shielding and they die super fast. I have my Scythe Auraxed. I got Light PPA and Dual Photon Auraxed within the first 2 weeks of Planetside 2 releasing.

    Very easily like an NC Scatter Max indoors when with A2G outside and no AA to contest. : )

    When my KD starts to suffer hard I just keep spawning the A2G Scythe and invert the KD at the expense of everyone else who is dying with ease of course. Sometimes I can streak 10 deaths easy before getting 1 kill and I'm really trying as infantry, swapping classes, loadouts, and such. You have to have some sort of mental perspective change coupled highly with their certain individual level of patience and proper positioning when using certain classes that I'm not too sure about for each. I just try to get everything to work but that does not work all the time and is paid for with a huge death streak. Trying to get the Deimos high-damage VS shotgun to work is as bad as trying to get the 1050 damage knife to work when it was 1050 than just hopping in an A2G Scythe and getting kills like it's nothing! I might be just a bad infantry player and not running AD keying as much as I should.
  9. Hersiphar

    "Grenade printer in the face"

    ... uh ? You say 'dangerous at close range ?'
  10. Pikachu

    Still complaining about scatmaxes. You guys should have been there at the beginning.
    • Up x 2
  11. AntDX316

    I missed noticing all of this because in the very beginning I was doing nothing but A2G Scythe, Tanks, and the V10 bolt-action Sniper.

    Maybe the game died because the infantry play was super unbalanced. A2G was incredibly unbalanced because only flak AA maxs were the only AA and I think the Skyguard but that might have came out later.
  12. AntDX316

    I just used the NC Scatter Max in VR Training, it's mad OP lmao, compared to the grenade printer NSO Max?? there is no contest. It's a shame they are even comparable when they are not.

    edit: I just used it Indoors and it's super easy to get kills. It's the greatest thing I have ever used for Infantry play. I wish I had Berserker and everything just that loadout unlocked so bad (I'm a VS Main). There's no need to follow targets and hoping they remain in a clear view of the center crosshair during a spray n' pray to finalize a kill. Just press Left-Click and Right-Click once and boom, easy kill.

    That is the one shot scatter max NC infantry gun version?
  13. Liewec123

    i see no difference from what people who can aim high are capable of achieving with blueshifts :p

    except blueshifts have greater range, shorter reloads and longer sustained fire :D
  14. Demigan

    I think we need less “but I think/in my experience/this anecdotal evidence in the VR” and use some actual numbers.

    Can anyone on the “hate NC side” prove with numbers that the NC MAX is superior as a whole?
  15. Shadowpikachu

    I have horrible luck and NC maxes kill me with 1shot of both guns 20m consistently and i've seen videos and living proof "1shot"(one of each arm) is enough to kill any infantry.

    Ingame, also NC pulls the most maxes and sometimes like 3 to even the smallest bases, also they have quickish reload times for 12 per arm.

    They also have a quick shield to say no to C4 and rockets almost entirely or just take minimal damage as their overextended self can crawl back around a corner.

    The main thing is though the shotguns are crazy and prevents a ****ton chip damage other maxes would have to deal with by chugging through infantry.

    It's mostly those 2 things, enough to make my NSO sign up for NC so i stop seeing them, they pull a max every base nomatter the pop it seems like.

    This is on emerald btw.

    Point is i see more NC maxes then others to a ratio of 5x more and every NC participating base that dosent have atleast one chewing people up is rare as hell, TR doesnt count for some reason their rare max pulls double bursters indoors because ???, VS seems to pull one or two maxes here and there rarely with their ops focused mindset.

    IDK what to even do about it, i dont think it needs immediate nerfs or anything it's just the design of it is outright better to prosper the most out of them all in good positions you can set up really fast.

    Much like most of NC's arsenal, it fits the game the best.

    Now if only NC would have a single op and win things outside of competitive.
  16. Botji

    I did, you even quoted it.

    What you responded with was the fable of NC not having good range on their MAXes but you did not prove it so perhaps you could start there?

    Prove the NC MAX has bad range compared to VS/TR and if you cant do that then it should be even more obvious that the DPS and tank monster NC MAX is the best one, if it was not obvious already when it dominates both alpha strike damage, DPS and health.
  17. Liewec123

    besides mattocks (which are decent at range),
    it should be painfully obvious that the other NC max AI weapons have far less range potential.
    you could paint a freaking barn with the pellet spray of something like grinders.
    but putting aside the obvious advantage of not spraying shotgun pellets at a distant target,
    have you even looked at the damage drop off?

    Cycler has max damage until 10m and drops 12% by 65m.
    Quasar has max damage until 10m and drops 14% by 75m.
    Scattercannon only has max damage until 8m and drops 61% by 20m
    yes 61% damage loss by 20m.

    Cosmos and mutilators have max damage until 10m and drops 12% by 65/75m.
    (it is also worth mentioning that Cosmos gets VS's faction specific "hitbox hack ammo", which greatly helps with getting shots to hit the target.)
    meanwhile grinders only have max damage range to 8m and drop 30% damage by 20m.

    Onslaughts have max damage range until 10m and drops 20% by 50m.
    Nebula also have max damage until 10m and drop 21% by 50m.
    meanwhile hacksaws have max damage until (you guessed it) 8m and drop 33% by 15m,
    yes 33% damage drop off by FIFTEEN METERS.
  18. Demigan

    You posted some stats, not performance numbers. At that point you get the Vanguard shield discussion. “It has a shield! No one has such an ability! Its OP!”. Ok but how well does the entire thing perform when you look at the actual overall numbers and not just a theorycraft? When we do look at that we find that despite the shield the Vanguard dies the most of all 3MBT’s. That wouldnt make sense for anyone looking at just the bare numbers that makes the tank as its got more health and a resistance shield. But when you pit it against the other MBT’s, Harassers, AV guns, rocketlaunchers and all the other stuff that it can encounter and the Vanguard dies the most while achieving the least.

    You just posted the stats, not performance stats, and pretended that proved them OP. This is similar to your previous shotgun comments where you pretend they are vastly superior because “oh noes they might kill across a room” while most shotguns can barely outperform the starter weapons in the game.
  19. AntDX316

    The Scattercannon NC Max is garbage if outside and the range is beyond close. Indoors it's definitely OP but getting C4ed or Rocketed puts a quick end to all of those 450 nanites.

    I had full HP or nearly full HP getting 1 C4 bricked inside and died. : (
  20. Shadowpikachu

    Who even uses the hacksaw??

    Just run 2 mattocks, it's outright better and every MAX i see uses them.

    And yes the low range variant will be low range, the other 2 MAXes get a short/medium/long range variants, but the shotguns still just outright tap someone at range vs just more consistency with less damage the others have.