[Suggestion] NC maxes urgently need those Machine guns

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Jbrain, Dec 18, 2015.

  1. Scr1nRusher



    Archer & various other counters.
  2. Imp C Bravo

    There would need to be a severe nerf of the Raven to compensate... otherwise NC MAXs would be the best at everything.
  3. Chewy102

    I can do you one older than that with having every TTK for MAX v MAX for all MAX AI weapons at ranges from 0m to 30m, along with video proof of the data.

    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps2/index.php?threads/max-balance-is-still-messed-up.212136/

    That's from 2015 but is a repost of this ( https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps2/index.php?threads/max-balance-part-4-everything-ai.139234/ ) with the all new data for the very few and **** all changes MAX AI got. You know, the ones that changed the Scats reload from 3 seconds to 2.945 seconds along with some other reload time changes for TR/VS weapons. Credit has to be given for that being when Mattocks became worth a damn from new damage drop numbers. But those didn't help all that much when you compare it all TTK wise as at 15m they still took 22 shells on average under 100% perfect condtions, and certainly didn't do **** for sustainability for anything NC MAX AI.

    July 5 2013 is when I first posted on this topic after taking at least a week to do all the math, record all the tests, upload any/everything I used to be used against me, and what not to make certain I knew what I was talking about and could deal with naysayers easy enough. And like I said Iv been complaining about this imbalance since BETA! I was in the Beta for 1-3+ months and from the first week of even that I seen that shotgun MAXes wasn't going to work out.



    This is a very old topic and I gave up on it long ago. The spark came back recently and that's why I even bothered logging on again. But after looking back at all this, Im still never going to boot the game up again from no ***** given from the devs for this. Really shows how much they care for balance.

    I love, LOVE, the base building and ANT stuff. But their balance work is lower than ****. Striker 1.0, ZOE, launch Magrider, BJ, the list goes on with stuff that is CLEARLY broken but takes months for anything to be done. Damage done and who knows how many quit from it all.
    • Up x 2
  4. Khallixtus

    K, so far the argument has gone like - NC MAXes need range; TR + VS need CQC; They have got CQC, just not as much.

    What you NC players don't seem to realize is that our range isn't great, it's sub par, unless we get the correct guns for it, in which case our CQC is bad, and we win because we are MAXes. Your range is useless, but don't think ours is good, as the only times it is sub par is when it's CQC is much worse.

    And having bad range on a MAX isn't the end of the world. There are plenty of ways to keep engagements within 10m, if you can't manage that, then that is your problem, not the MAX, but your skill. What's more, MAXes aren't really meant for range as it is.

    In more competitive PS2, such as Server Smashes, MAXes are used for storming points, specifically as a MAX crash. Now, what's better for storming a point, a shield that lets you get close whilst taking less damage and shotguns that can easily clear a room or some chainguns that, although fast at killing things, are still slower than shotguns.

    The answer is the MAX with the shield and shotguns. The shotguns are better for what the MAXes are made for. Holding a spot. Sit inside, and it's very hard to get rid of you, and nearly impossible with the right backup.

    And if you don't like how you don't have range, think about the Ravens. Can VS or TR happily kill every vehicle out there whilst sitting in a spot where they cannot be touched? No, they can't. NC can. It is hard, but you can happily sit right outside your spawn and happily kill whatever vehicles you want.

    You also have the best MAX ability. Aegis Shield. TR have lockdown, which isn't actually that useful, as using it is turning yourself into rocket bait. You do some more damage, sure, but any decent heavy will happily unload a rocket right into your face. VS get their increased damage dealt, movement and more damage taken. This just changes the gameplay, as both the MAX and it's targets are dying faster. The Aegis Shield lets you get close to your objective and take less damage as you do it. It isn't perfect, no, but with shotguns, something that lets you get close or keeps you safe from a range is extremely powerful.

    So next time you want a buff to your NC MAXes, try to make sure that it needs a buff. From what I've seen, it certainly doesn't.
    • Up x 1
  5. CNR4806

    Unless the entire faction balance themes are thrown back to the drawing board and redone (which should be done because frankly Higby and his idea of a shotgun faction is ridiculous), NO.
  6. Goretzu

    Yeah the Falcon 1.0 was the best NC MAX AI weapon for long range by far, then the Falcon 2.0 was made pretty rubbish at it, but the Falcon 3.0 is again reasonably good at it (not Pounder good, of course, or really long range like the Raven).

    They had a NS MAX shotgun in the works.

    It could be done within faction diversity.

    Although in fairness the biggest problem with that is their complete misdesign with MAXs in PS2.

    In PS1 MAXs had a high defence and not so high DPS.
    In PS2 MAXs have high DPS (especially AI), but not so high defence (higher than infantry certainly, but not relative to PS1 MAXs), which makes them much harder to balance when you're talking about 0.0s TTK vs 0.3s TTK.

    PS1 AI MAX balance was pretty good and the way they got around the NC ScatterMAX was, of course, choked modes - something that they seem to find impossible in PS2 (so the NC AI MAX in PS1 was better at close range and worse at long range - but because of choked modes it was still competitive at longer range, although still worse).

    PS2 really has a lack of faction diversity AI MAX-wise, if you want something that works like a ScatterMAX, just use dual Onslaughts, they come close enough (0.3s) to equal the best NC AI MAX close range MAX shotgun weapons (either Grinder or Hacksaw YMMV) and yet still equal the best NC AI MAX long range shotgun (Mattock with slugs).
    Alternatively just run dual Mutilators and spam spam spam almost infinately or Mercys and have relatively high accuracy (neither option is possible to match with an NC AI MAX).

    That's not to say NC AI MAXs are rubbish, the are very deadly within their specific ranges, of course, just that their most effective ranges are much narrower than TR/VS AI MAXs.
  7. Goretzu

    The only way to "keep engagements within 10m" is to not pull AI MAXs when it is likely not to be (which is most places).

    This is infact why you see TR and VS AI MAXs much more than NC AI ones.

    I'd agree Aegis Shield is (now) probably the best general ability, however it is still worse than Charge and Lockdown is still the best situational ability by far (ask any TR Outfit that does Gal drops).

    Charge is way, way, way, waaaaaaaaaaaay better for "storming points" in a MAX crash than Aegis Shield (way better). Aegis Shield is pretty terrible for a MAX crash (you advance slowly and die, basically) compared to Charge (Charge in just behind and EMP and unload).
    Lockdown is way better for "defending points" than Aegis Shield.

    Also given that almost all rooms are bigger than 15m across (never mind 8m for Infantry-work) the reality is that weapons like Onslaughts (0.3s TTK), Mutilators (never ever stop firing) or Mercys/Blueshifts (high accuracy and good longer range DPS) tend work at least as well (and often better).


    Now that's not to say NC AI weapons are pants, but equally there is a valid point, especially when they were going to impliment NS shotgun weapons (which I suspect will end up not being used as much as Onslaught/Mutilator/Mercy/Blueshift etc.
  8. Azawarau

    Id argue its better than the pounder and raven given certain situations

    Theres no recoil and the drop is fairly smooth. It makes targeting distant sunderers easy

    And when under fire you can abuse fire>crouch to get your hits in without having to expose yourself as long as you would with other max guns

    Though for moving targets and really far targets the raven wins outright
  9. Liewec123

    run mattocks WITHOUT slugs, the range might surprise you, its like dual-wielding jackhammers :)
    • Up x 1
  10. OldMaster80

    I've been saying this since beta. Max Units should have never been the high dps unit of PS2. They should be walking mini tanks with high firearms resistance. Almost able to run after infantry and bash it with bare hands.
    • Up x 1
  11. Nerazim

    [IMG]
    Grab one of these OP and happy max hunting.
  12. Chewy102

    Find near any TR/VS MAX gameplay video and take note of the range. Then do the same for a NC MAX video. Also take note of where the MAXes fight and how they go about killing.

    I can bet you that you'd find that in the TR/VS videos, that aren't montages cut to hell, the MAX will be actively hunting the enemy. Leaving cover, going into the open, shooting across no mans lands, or the likes while hardly needing to reload and engaging a fair number of players one after another more or less alone or apart of a mob. Id also bet you that in NC videos, again NOT a montage, you will see the MAX never leaving cover, at all, and waiting for the enemy to come to it while avoiding explosives and with close support.

    I just did that myself on a fast google search after typing this out. And now I ask you. What gameplay is better for PS2? Hunting the enemy? Or waiting for them to come to you? Attacking, defending, anything.


    Fact is this. TR and VS MAXes can do both thanks to their range and massive ammo counts. What you call "limited range" for TR and VS MAXes, is still very much DOUBLE the range of NC MAXes. You don't even need to play all 3 factions to know how limited shotguns are to other weapons.



    Here is a test for anyone willing to try.

    Play Heavy with what LMG you wish for at least an hour and take notes of how you approach fights, what ranges you fought at, and what not else you think is good to note. Recording the gameplay isn't needed but is best for looking back at what really happened. Then for the next hour use a shotgun you wish and do the same with notes. After that compare them.

    Im certain every single one of you will find the LMG a better overall weapon type. More ammo to deal with more targets, more range to deal with more areas, just more flexibility anyway you look at it to deal with the chaos of PS2 gameplay.

    Infantry, ground vehicles, and aircraft all get to pick from a number of weapon types WITH also often having sub classes to those weapon types. Ever single class in the entire game has that choice. All of them but MAXes. MAXes don't have any choices at all. They are still locked out of Player Studio gear for ***** sake.

    Calling MAXes 2nd class citizens isn't even close.
    • Up x 1
  13. InfernoKoV

    While you're range isn't great either, you can still kill and actually hit **** and it's a heck of a lot better than what the NC has. Using the Mattocks with Slugs is not even worth the cert cost. You can stand still at 30m and I can aim right at you and not hit you at all... not a single pellet hits you... I have to fire about another 4 times before I actually get a hit. The way they have the shotgun spread worked out is stupid. Rather than expending outward from the center of your reticle it's as if they choose a random location from within your CoF and spread out from that point... Shotguns are not supposed to work that way lol.

    I keep hearing this crap about your CQC being bad... IT'S NOT! The ONLY noticeable benefit that I have over you is the ability to instant-gib... where I come around a corner or you appear in front of me and I immediately kill you IF YOU'RE CLOSE ENOUGH. Outside of that split instance our TTKs are roughly the same... ALL WELL BELOW .4s! If you add any amount of range we get severely worse while it affects you nowhere near as much. No one is asking for a buff, we're asking for it to be more balanced.

    Feel free to look at my numbers and point out where I am wrong... And look at my proposed changes from 2 years ago: https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps2/index.php?threads/my-nc-ai-max-suggested-fixes.172711/
  14. Reclaimer77

    I don't think downplaying the current insta-kill factor of the NC AI Max's is a good way to state your case. Sorry but it certainly feels like a lot more than a .03 second TTK difference in actual game conditions. You are just gibbed instantly.

    Those who truly know how to play that Max to it's strong points are HORRORS indoors.

    Also would you be willing to trade a Falcon/Raven AI nerf in exchange for this? I mean a big one. Because frankly you guys already have the best short-ranged and arguably the best long range Max's in the game. This change would dramatically swing things in your favor.
  15. Goretzu

    A lot of things would have been much easier if they'd been designed this way.

    It doesn't matter what you "feel", the reality is it is 0.0s vs 0.3s and in most situations you're dead in either case.
    Certainly the NC AI MAX is marginally better in this context, but then equally it is subpar from 8-50m (15-50m vs MAX) compared to the other MAXs - most combat is outside 8m range in PS2.

    As Chewy points out the most pro-active MAX is probably the Blueshift given that it has the greatest effective range, unsurprisingly when you look at general performance stats it also performs the best like that as well.

    It is also unsurprising that the most used TR AI MAX is actually the Mutilator, as I suspect its ability to basically endlessly fire makes up for an awful lot.

    If you're nerfing the Falcon then that would ba AFTER the Pounder was nerfed, of course, given that the Pounder signficantly (by ~33%) outperforms the Falcon.

    The Fracture 2.0 needs a buff, but a buff that doesn't make it the obscenely overpowered Fracture 1.0 again.






    At the end of the day if they ever bring in NS shotgun and LMG arms, a lot more TR and VS only players are going to get shock vs NC AI MAXs than NC only players will get vs TR/VS MAXs, given that NC AI MAXs will suddenly have range, whist the TR/VS MAXs will suddenly have a 0.3s faster TTK along with massive reloads and short sustained fire times.
  16. InfernoKoV

    I don't think you've given your argument much thought at all... as if anyone has a chance to react to the same situation with the other MAXs lol. You are speaking of a very small and insignificant instance... If you run in to a room with 5 enemies and you have perfect aim, it will take you longer to kill those 5 as an NC MAX than it will with the VS or TR... Your point becomes moot in this situation.

    The suppression aspect of the TR/VS weapons alone are much more advantageous than an instant-gib. They could at least add some nice tracer effects to our guns so the enemies could see all those pellets hitting everything but themselves lol.
  17. Savadrin

    Nobody makes you play the rebels ;)

    At any rate - I typically lose going head to head with an NC MAX as TR, and I typically have better chances against VS.

    The Mutilator might as well be a shotgun that shoots one pellet at a time forever, because the CoF is so awful the ONLY thing that makes it useful is that you can just keep firing for eternity. Unless, of course, you're within the range where two heavy's or an NC MAX can simply destroy you before you get through shields.

    I'm talking <6m to get a reliable number of headshots.

    The Mercy, meanwhile, plays accuracy, except it's not really that accurate. The round counts/damage are so low that I hardly use it, because it's just not effective at all, for me.

    Then we've got the pounders, which are decent - when you're in the mood for getting C4'd, AV grenaded, or just plain old worked over by Heavy rockets.

    I haven't even tried the fractures, since all I have heard about them is bad.

    I've never played an NC max, so I can't speak directly to how tough it is to have two shotguns on a shielded infantry suit instead of one on a non-shielded meatbag.

    But as long as you have Ravens, you've got your own Gatekeeper style engage at any range - except the AI potential is LOADS better.
  18. Flag

    I'm still hoping for a buff to change the archer from being dangerous to maxes to making them absolutely terrifying - or to make them less anti-max only.

    Or for Charge to be removed from the MAX. That'd be good too.
  19. Scr1nRusher

    I'm hoping for a Archer buff aswell.


    It sucks at doing so many things.
  20. Jubikus

    You should have seen the Dozens of VS that thought that in a biolab last night most of them light assaults on the roof of buildings and what did i do i tossed on slugs less than half the shots hit but enough would usually hit to kill them works better than chainguns more aplha damage they just die before they get to cover. But your point still stands you can run away from a scattmax granted you can run away from any max pretty easily and kill them if you have C4 you always know where they are since they are so loud just walking around.