I'm not sure what you mean by ineffective. Are you saying that TR and VS maxes should be better than NC maxes at all ranges? I agree that NC drops other maxes too quickly, but we should have an advantage in CQC, and that's it.
I was being deliberately sarcastic. If you want to know what I desire read my other fifteen posts in this thread.
Stop whining that scatter/hacksaw max is overpowered when you run in alone close range. I've been in situations were my max was completely useless, all it takes is 2 grenades or 2 rocket launchers to kill a max and in the confusion of a bio-lab fight with 25 people that's not hard to pull off. You might as well complain while running into an incinerator wearing paper armor. Start whining that your maxes are under powered. There should be variants of every weapon type for every faction max. Some accuracy increases are needed for minigun too.
All MAX units have the same number and archetypes of max weapons (Fast firing/slower more accurate/standard)
It saddens me to see MAX users turn on each other when an increased resistance to small arms fire would not only help us all but make our AV weapon options more useful.
So, you think it's perfectly fine that it takes multiple people to take out a skillsaw when the same doesn't hold true for VS and TR.........You think VS and TR aren't susceptible to grenades and rockets? You think you can actually outrange a skillsaw when all objectives are indoors in tight spaces? The only scenario where there are long lines of sight are outdoor bases, guess what, MAXes are not good in those situations because vehicles will be abundant. They plan on implementing PS1 style bases on Oshur, if you think that the noobsaw will remain in its current form before those style bases come out, then you're an idiot.
Excuse me but.. Running with 2-3 engineers behind me is hardly alone, they cannot out heal it at any range where I need to be at, as a VS MAX. What you listed are things that can kill any MAX but most importantly: Are not tools available to a MAX, no MAX decimates other MAXes at anyway near the speed that a NC, will obliterate other MAXes at in the ranges you are Forced into, if you want to do anything meaningful like say: Push a generator or a point, especially in a biolab where it's purely infantry on infantry and MAXes actually matter. there's a difference between slight MAX variants and 'having access to a weapon type that is infinitely more viable.' Sure a TR can stand and shoot at ranges, but he's not hitting enough to scare a MAX, I certainly don't give a toss when he's standing at 20-25 meters and shooting at me with dual mercies, I just waltz into cover.. So much for accuracy (and as VS I'd land even less bullets than him), however if I meet a NC MAX at 10 meters, which is where I HAVE TO BE, if I want to kill infantry, then I am dead so fast it's rendered my existence in the biolab pointless. Neither from a balance point of view or a realistic point of view does it make any kind of sense that a NC MAX can finish off other MAXes so efficiently, it quite simply makes them too dominant in a otherwise MAX friendly setting.
I really don't understand why you are still crying about this issue. Look at the vanguard. Look at the reaver. Look at NC stock weapons. Now that is game balance changing 'imbalance' that makes the NC really weak / hard to play in comparison to TR and VS. We have one thing atm that is situationally better ( hands down better ) then VS and TR, and that is sub 5 meter encounters were we can use a choke point to funnel you guys in and shotgun you to bits. Advocate some balance for our useless MBT, and our inferior at every level reaver before you take our ONLY toy away. Lets just for arguments say we make hacksaw "balanced" in a way that you guys will kill us in the bio domes aswell ( wich you already do by outnummbering us atleast on the EU servers ), now how many will continue to play NC then? What will happend on servers where NC players either quit or re-roll into another faction? Really think this thread is the epitome of min max balancing in favor of "ones" own realm no matter what. You won't be the ones advocating for balance in the MBT department, or in the ESF department. I am all for all maxes beeing situationally good at all ranges with short range, medium range and long range armaments but starting with this in a game were the imbalance is pritty one sided ( all stacked against NC ) atm is not the right way to do things.
The best solution is to give NC a machinegun type weapon for their max and then give everyone access to shotguns for their maxes. NC can still have the best shotgun but they shouldn't have that much of an advantage/disadvantage of being limited to shotguns. P.S. yes this opinion come from several years of AI max imbalance from PS1
no arguments, just trying to guilt trip others by saying 'but we suck at other things' Well.. If that's the case that stuff needs fixing, guess what, you can go complain in other parts of the forums about that. You present nothing against nerfing NC MAXes damage against OTHER MAXES something a lot of NC players conveniently leave out, is the fact that you'd still decimate infantry in your optimal range just like now, but you'd not be unstoppable when facing down an enemy MAX, you'd win a 1v1.. but if he's 2v1 with an engineer behind him, he should win. Right now you cannot win with 4v1 with 3 engineers repairing you. And sure you could argue 'just bring 4 heavy assault and rocket spam him' yeah.. Great.. That's a fun way of making an already underplayed class more viable... One of many solutions to this problem (although my favourite would be to just make ALL MAXes, in general immune to small arms fire, which would solve the problem) would be to greatly reduce the clip size of NC MAXes, but increase reload speed proportionately, increasing their DPS over time, but decreasing their spike damage to a point where they cannot instagib an enemy MAX. That option however would probably not sit well because it actually affects your infantry killing potential, so really nerfing Damage vs MAXes (and I cannot stress this enough, ONLY MAXes) is really the better option if you want to keep your guns as close to theri current state as possible. Or y'know.. Just give TR/VS MAXes a cert option to be more CQC.. you have a cert option to get medium range in the form of slugs. This of course has the added downside that ALL MAXes will just be insta gibbed when they see each other, not just when they see a NC MAX.
As a primarily VS. I use Mag/Engineer/LA/Max a lot. I would not nerf the NC Max, each faction has different things, NC holding Biolab is a challenge. Am I upset my VS Cosmos Max, 4% kinetic gets killed in half a second, yeah. Its not like the Blueshift with .02 quicker TTK would have made a huge difference. VS Max is good in the more open stretches of Biolab, mostly you have to watch out for LA C-4 ing you and HA Rocket to the face. But your VS AI Max will not be able to push around the close corners vs the NC Max, you need lots of rockets and explosives. You have to let the NC faction have its asset. I think that VS AI Max needs a buff more than nerf NC, TR does better vs the NC disintegrater. The NC damage drop off is quite huge for every 10m, though I suppose in Bio that isnt a huge problem.
Reducing clip size will basically render the NC MAX useless against everything - my NC MAX will be lucky to get 2 kills per mag at close range against infantry - my Cycler TR MAX has mowed down about 8 or so per clip close range. Agreed that the TTK against other MAX at point blank range needs to be increased but still maintain a large point blank CQC superiority. Don't know about the VS MAX as I don't play VS but IMO, the COF for the Cycler should be reduced to make it more effective at range - it appears to be a similar complaint about the VS AI variants so do the same with that. Bio Lab fights for me are rare, the Platoon I play with considers the benefit from a Bio Lab pretty weak. As a result, my NC MAX is usually carrying Scatters with slugs in Tech Plants and other outlying regions so I can get some range. The killing potential outside of 15m even on infantry with NC MAX uncerted shotguns is poor and renders the NC MAX to either indoors (boring..) or a defenceless target outdoors.
hacksaw could get minor nerf against other AI maxes, IF it get samekind of wide/average/tight modes like it was in PS1, cos fact is that about leght of sunderer is the one and ONLY effective area of scatter/hacksaw( 1-8 meter), after that its effectivness drop dramatically due pellet spread/low ammo/slow and constant need of reloading. sony should not touch scatters/hacksaws one and only range without giving something usefull back sametime. hacksaw/scatter are best AI max in close combat,but same time CLEARLY the weakest/useless in everything else outside of that very small radius,it allmost feels like some (many) TR/VS players would like to keep they maxes better reach/versatility with more bullets in they maxes, BUT same time fight "equally" against NC maxes in the ONLY place NC maxes supposed to be good.
*carefully sticks his head in the thread, checking to see if something's burning before comitting* Sorry if I'm going to repeat something already mentioned, but I haven't read the entire thread. As a dedicated NC MAX (That uses the Mattock almost exclusively), I'd say that the Hacksaw variant is indeed out of balance. Now, that being said, I'm not saying that it varrants a big swing of the nerf-hammer, but I do agree that it needs to be adjusted, even if it's ever so slightly. I think that the main issue comes into play because the Scattercannon can't really trade a fast fire rate for per bullet damage. Basically, compared to their base counterparts, the Hacksaw version is geared towards increased alpha-strike, where the Nebula and Onslaught are geared towards a higher damage over time. My own contemplations on this is: Remove the refire-rate bonus from the Hacksaw altogether - maybe a very slight decrease in refire-rate, from 240 to 235/230, but in return significantly decrease reload-speed. Basically swapping refire-rate used on TR and VS, for a reload-speed bonus. (Given this is a big part of the Scattercannon, it may have to be significant). This would translate to the Hacksaw being able to lock down an area more effectively, but without the high alpha-strike it currently has. Also, it would mean that, given the nature of the Scattercannon, it's overall damage over time is increased, and with a slight decrease in refire-rate, hopefully still be in line with it's counterparts in the TR and VS arsenal. Granted this "solution" makes it somewhat different from the other two empires', but it is already different in that it does not have decreased pellet damage, where TR and VS, have. As many have stated, the time between reloads is one of NCs biggest drawbacks, and I can't help but think that removing a good deal of that reload would still make it a "go-to" weapon for the situation these variations were meant for, but remove the high alpha-strike which, at the ranges it's meant for, is too much of an advantage - in my opinion. In short, it would, hopefully, remove the alpha-strike, but increase the DoT in the same way that increased RoF and reduced bullet damage does for the TR and VS. On a sidenote, the reason I would not "recommend" reduced pellet damage, is that that specific bonus is already present on the Mattock. The difference between the Mattock and the Hacksaw I proposed above, would be that where the Mattock has normal refire rate and reload, it has a bigger ammo capacity. On the other hand, the proposed Hacksaw would have a significantly reduced reload, (maybe very slightly reduced refire rate), but normal ammo capacity and a much higher ammo consumption rate. [Edit: Bit late here and lacking sleep, fixed a few quite important semantical errors ;o ]
A few weeks ago the Hacksaw was OP because no VS or TR did know how to conter this. people ran up to the max trying to unload their LMG and died. At the moment more and more ppl get to know how to deal with a scatter/hacksaw max. They know they have a long reloadtime and few bullets, they use rocketlauncher, c4, and other blastweapons. It took a while to get some working tactics for ESF's too till everyone was aware how to survive and kill them and I think it will be the same with maxes.
Other MAXes used to have a answer to the Scattermax, it was the Flamethrower that they removed in Beta (no idea why, they haven't said)
Cursed edit timer and lack of sleep. What I meant to say was: On a sidenote, the reason I would not "recommend" reduced pellet damage, is that that specific bonus is already present on the Mattock. Removing that from the Mattock in favor of putting it on the Hacksaw would, in my opinion, make the Mattock too effective, and potentially invert the imbalance with Hacksaw vs Nebula and Onslaught. The difference between the Grinder and the Hacksaw I proposed above, would be that where the Grinder has normal refire rate and reload, it has a bigger ammo capacity. Whereas the proposed Hacksaw would have a significantly reduced reload, (maybe very slightly reduced refire rate), but normal ammo capacity and a much higher ammo consumption rate. Ultimately the Grinder would have more longevity in the long run, but the Hacksaw would have a higher DoT but would need more ammo support. Approximately the same relationship as Onslaught/Mutilator and Nebula/Cosmos.
It was because once we had a couple thousand people on a server rendering the flames became an issue.
And this was relevant to a discussion for MAX on MAX fights how? (not to mention, yay, explosives kill all MAXes, woopie) Did I miss the part where my quasars were effective beyond 15 meters (when equipped with cosmos, the most accurate mind you) or have they been handing out rockets and c4 to MAXes while I wasn't looking? no?.. well.. How is that relevant to the fact that a NC MAX has a disgustingly low TTK against MAXes, rendering TR/VS MAXes harmless in any fight against NC because they cannot go into their optimal range, since if they do a NC will blow them out of the way, no matter how many engineers or how much kinetic armor you have certed.
