NC Hacksaw is too effective in MAX duels

Discussion in 'MAX' started by Cryptek, Dec 14, 2012.

  1. SemperFi

    You forgot putting SCATTERCANNON to the OP List not only hacksaw. Its ridiculous compared to its TR/VS anti-infantry weapon counterparts and deserves a nerf.
  2. Eric Smith

    A TR Max can go through 2-3 Infantry in a fight where they know he's coming. More if he catches some of them off guard. A lot more if it's a mass zerg situation. OTOH, one good opponent can wipe the floor with a TR Max because his TTK is long enough that an Infantry can Strafe out of the line of fire and generally zig-zag away. NC Maxes just instagib opponents if they can land more than one shot, and with automatic shotguns they can usually land at least two shots.

    The problem is that Shotguns don't penetrate bulletproof vests very effectively, and Maxes don't have the equivalent of Bulletprooof vests they have something more akin to the equivalent of quarter inch steel armor plating.

    That's nice an all, but this whole discussion thread isn't about how NC care about how shotguns work, this thread is about how that game mechanic quirk is broken, especially in regards to Max v Max combat. You can simply not care all you want, but if it's a broken game mechanic it's a broken game mechanic. And one Max AI weapon available to only one faction being able to take down a Max of the other two factions in less than a second is a broken mechanic, especially when the other two factions have no real counter to that weapon.

    TR/VS Max units can't stand up to the NC Max Units and TR/VS Infantry Units get instagibbed by NC Max Units. In CQC the NC Max is not good, it does not rule, it is godlike. When massed together and backed up by a few engineers and medics they are death incarnate, which makes it literally impossible to route NC from a base with heavy CQC like a BioLab. There are literally no options the other empires can use to route an NC defense from such a base except for an overwhelming numbers Zerg. Any game mechanic which gives one empire that much of an advantage is quite simply a broken game mechanic.

    Taking a BioLab from the NC is worse than taking an InterFarm from the TR was in PS1. At least an InterFarm can be taken in a few hours, if only from depleting the NTU's. I've seen the NC hold a BioLab for literally 24 hours, and the final routing only take place when their population drops at odd hours of the day.

    See, you're missing the point of this discussion. We're not asking why shotguns are so effective against Maxes, we're asking why should shotguns be so effective against Maxes.

    Either way you look at it it's a bad thing. Whether you look at it from a realism perspective - at how shotguns should work realistically against solidly armored targets - or you look at it from a game balance perspective - should only one empire have a weapon that can instagib all targets from other empires - it's a broken game mechanic
    • Up x 1
  3. Daswen

    Let it go guys, 90% of PS2 players are the same, they do not care about balance.

    You can post 1 million threads about NC MAX, or TR weapons, or Magriders, responses will be the same : Learn to play.

    Sad, but true.
    • Up x 4
  4. Dasmasterneko

    *sighs* What a bunch of whiners... Yes we get it already. NC's MAX insta gibs you if you stick your face in its barrels. Here is a problem though. If you want to try balance this. Lets say reduce damage to maxes by 20%. That would only mean they have to stand 20% closer to insta gib them. What if we increased the spread by 20%? 20% closer again... Reduced damage? Get closer.

    Unless you go crazy all you are doing is making it more and more of a melee attack. If you want to nerf them to not be as good in generator assaults / defence you have to make them useless past 4-5 meters and even then they can just camp doorways...

    Besides have you not noticed this is pretty much still in BETA. They will add more stuff to the MAX suites soon enough so dont get your panties in a bundle.

    So you got a little bit of a choice here. Either you nerf the hell out of the shotgun so that it cant shot further then the operator can pee and even then only shoot nerf bullets and whip cream at people. Or you can focus on the real issue that MAX suites needs some love from SOE.
  5. irishroy

    hacksaws are ok and balanced,ok?
    jumped out of a galaxy on the crown(it ws in the hands of TR) with my outfit, everybody MAXs ....
    on everyplatform a TR-MAX. and i only have 1 hacksaw, i kill´d a MAX, and pulled another MAX down at ~1/2 of his health ...
    trololol. gorillas are falling from the skies.... :D
  6. Ender

    There are more ways than that, that offer a better approach rather than effecting damage or range. Such as considering the MAX unit as armored instead of a high hp infantry or increasing the refire timer between each round by 1/10th of a second.
  7. korpisoturi

    "See, you're missing the point of this discussion. We're not asking why shotguns are so effective against Maxes, we're asking why should shotguns be so effective against Maxes".

    so in your perfect mind ALL maxes should equal in close range combat , but outside close range ( 0-6 meter) TR/VS maxes can keep they platant advantage with they larger ammo clips with high ROF +much MUCH better reach in they weapons ? YUP sound fair and balancedo_O
  8. Eric Smith

    Way to be utterly dismissive without actually addressing any real points.

    There are lots of ways to reduce Max v Max effectiveness without completely nerfing NC Maxes. Reducing Shotgun Damage dealt to Maxes wouldn't do one whit to nerf NC Maxes effectiveness versus Infantry. Or increasing refire rate a bit would have a very similar effect. Or giving TR and VS Maxes the capability to increase damage vs other Maxes would help even the playing field (i.e. Ground Spiking for TR, AP Ammo for TR, and an AP fire mode for VS, all of which were present in one form or another in PS1). Increasing Max AV weapon damage to other Maxes would also be in line - there's no reason a ScatMax should out DPS a dual Pounder Max or a Dual Comet Max - at least theoretically a dual AV Max should be a specialized setup just for taking out other Maxes and it's a crying shame that Max AV weapons have pretty much no use in this game - Maxes are useless against actual Vehicles and AV Weapons are almost useless against other Maxes. There's probably at least a dozen other tweaks that could be done that wouldn't nerf NC Max effectiveness vs Infantry one whit while making Max v Max far more fair.

    The problem is that the real whiners are the ones defending an OP weapon system. "Oh, but other NC Weapons suck. And our Tank blows goats compared to the Magrider. And the Reaver is a crappy plane." We saw it with all the air jockeys who defended RocketPods, and frankly we're seeing it now in regards to the ScatMax. The answer isn't to keep an OP weapon OP, it's to try to balance out the other unbalanced areas of the game.
    • Up x 1
  9. Eric Smith

    Where did I say anything like that? If you're going to put words in my mouth at least make the words sound at least slightly like something I've said instead of making up straw-man arguments whole cloth.
    • Up x 1
  10. Dkamanus

    You guys do know that scatterMAX deal 50% less damage to the head compared to the other 2 MAXes, right? Decrease spread and CoF on both and you'll be much more effective against NC MAXes, while not nerfing them.
  11. korpisoturi

    that is what people(some TR/VS) want now , nerf NC maxes close combat advantage wich is scatters/hacksaws ONE AND ONLY RANGE, where they can be effective.

    this is like planetside 1 once again TR/VS crying how NC can allmost instagib on POINTPLANK RANGE , and yet they allways same time ignore the fact that scatter wasand still is next to uselsss outside of pointplank range 0-6 meter.
  12. korpisoturi

    "The answer isn't to keep an OP weapon OP, it's to try to balance out the other unbalanced areas of the game"

    you are 100% right,lets enbrace this new found visdom and start balancing from TR , T9-CARV and TRAC-5, those 2 weapons are the root of all whines , they are too versatile , strong+ accurate+ high ROF combined with lots of ammo to spam.
  13. Quiiliitiila

    At least TR and NC MAX units have viable AI weapons... What are the Vanu Max units good for? Looking cool, that's about it.
  14. Eric Smith

    Where? What people? Why didn't you respond to one of them rather than put words in my mouth? I'll tell you why - the *ONLY* people I see posting "NERFITNERFIT" are the NC defenders, who are writing it to put words in other people's mouths. Everyone else seems to be saying "Keep your Instagib weapons against Infantry, but give other Max units at least a chance in hell of winning." That's a long way from the massive Nerf that the NC defenders are claiming it is.

    In PS1 an NC Max couldn't instagib another Max unit.
    • Up x 3
  15. Ender

    This. And in PS1 at least I could pull out my decimators and hot swap the guy until client side caught up with me. Also Scat's from PS1 could change the choke and get a pretty decent effective range although it wasn't instagib-city anymore.
  16. rambo50

    The Hacksaw out dps other Maxes even on mid range. You could easily halve the damage of every pellet and it would be still extremly powerful.
    Its cleary the most overpowered weapon in the game. Everyone who says that its fine is just lying or doesnt know how bad the TR and VC Max weapons compared are.
    Luckily Maxes are outside of biolabs and a few other bases nearly useless. So its not the biggest problem.

    Not only the Hacksaw is overpowered. Every NC Max Scattergun is. The Hacksaw is just the best.
  17. korpisoturi

    dual hacksaw (if extended mags) is clealry the best AI max in pointplank range but its effectiveness decrease VERY fast in range and if target is even sunderers lenght away hacksaw user have to spam both arms empty to even hope to get that kill wich means hacksaw needs to reload constantly.

    hacksaw is NOT default weapon like trac-5 and t9-carv , if player wants to get dual hack saws he need invest about 15 euros or MASSIVE amount of time to get 2000 certs + LOADS of time to get those exteneded clips (2x500certs) cos without them hacksaw have too few shots to be really effective and keep spending more time on reloading than shooting.

    hack saw could get little nerf against other maxes in close range IF same time they get some range to they weapons cos hacksaw/scatter use have slim to non chance to win if other max is more than 10 meter away.
  18. Niller

    We don't need more simular factions
  19. Brusilov [TR]

    THis guy!! ahaha

    I want to subscribe to your posts!
  20. Ubikuuu

    To make it clear

    No one is lamenting that NC MAXes instagib INFANTRY in CQC.
    That is working as intended.
    It's what they should do, their specialization.

    The problem is that they instagib MAXes
    Compared to a what? 20 seconds TTK of TR and VS maxes?
    That is too fast.

    And more

    That an NC MAX wins in CQC against other MAXes it's FINE
    It is fine too that it wins by a LARGE margin (like 50% health)

    But it is not fine that it INSTANTLY VAPORIZES you.