Mythbusting PS2 - No Bullet Drop

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by BrbImAFK, Apr 5, 2017.

  1. BrbImAFK

    Mythbusting PS2

    Episode 1 - No Bullet Drop Matters

    So, this is a constant thing that comes up every time people start mentioning weapon balance - VS's "no bullet drop" trait. I've always considered it to be massively overrated, but most people generally seemed to disagree with me. I finally decided to actually test these issues and see whether bullet drop matters.

    Based on my understanding of PS2's mechanics, and the reading I've done on Iridar's website, I've generally concluded that, as far as small arms go, gravity is basically consistent. This is borne out by his weapon stats spreadsheet where everything (except sniper rifles) has the same gravity. As such, there's no need to test every gun in the game.

    I have not tested SMGs, shotguns or sidearms, because lol at using them at long ranges. I've also not tested rocket launchers because if I recall correctly, they're pretty much carbon copies, with the exception of the ES launchers.

    • First off, I main VS and obviously, like most people, I have biases. However, when I write factual / informative articles like this one, I do my best to be as objective as possible.
    • I spent about three hours on this, and fired hundreds of rounds of ammo. However, there's always the possibility that an even larger sample size would result in slightly different numbers. I don't believe in absolutes, but I do believe in "good enough".
    Not really a caveat, but I put together a small imgur albumto give views a sense of scale using 2x, 4x and 6x scopes at 20m, 40m, 60m and 80m. I seem to have misplaced my 100m shots, and can't be arsed to make new ones. If it's that important, you can go look yourself.

    Test Methodology
    1. All testing was based off being able to get constant headshots, aiming at the centre of the head (so no aiming at the tippy-top of the head shenanigans here! :p ), at 10m intervals while tap-firing single shots to eliminate the effect of recoil, CoF bloom and dodgy aim.
    2. Almost all weapons have non-zero CoF's. As such, if an occasional non-headshot slips in during testing, I won't necessary penalise the gun on range. For example, dropping one HS in 20 kills is still perfectly accurate allowing for CoF.... dropping one HS every kill is not. I think this accounts for some of the inconsistencies that I've found between weapons of similar bullet velocities.
    3. Not all weapons have high-mag scopes so, especially in cases of being limited to 4x etc., I've done my best to aim at centre-head (once we're getting out to 80m-100m+), but it could be a pixel off either way.
    4. Given that gravity is a constant, only bullet velocity should affect drop. As such, I've tested only the fastest and slowest velocity guns in each class as well as the NS ones for comparison.
    5. All guns were tested with (where available) and without suppressors.
    Test Assumptions
    1. The majority of the guns tested are full-auto weapons, designed to be used at or near full-auto. As such, maximum effective scope is generally 2x (at least, that's what everybody always tells me), and effective combat range is limited to about 60m (at which very few people will even be attempting to chain headshots, especially on moving targets).
    2. Where longer-ranged, low-RoF weapons or semi-auto weapons are concerned, effective scopes are usually 4x to maybe 6x, with effective combat range limited to about 100m.
    3. Everything beyond 100m is effectively "sniper range".

    Test Results

    Assault Rifles
    • Carnage (Slow - 580) : no drop at 90m (50m sup)
    • Gauss Rifle (Fast - 620) : no drop at 100m (50m sup)
    • Cycler (Slow - 550) : no drop at 100m (50m sup)
    • TORQ-9 (Fast - 620) : no drop at 100m (50m sup)
    • NS-11A (640) : no drop at 100m (50m sup)
    Light Machine Guns
    • Anchor (Slow - 570) : no drop 100m (50m sup)
    • Gauss SAW (Fast - 630) : no drop 100m (50m sup)
    • MSW-R (Slow - 550) : no drop at 90m (40m sup)
    • Bull (Fast - 640) : no drop at 100m (50m sup)
    • NS-15M (600) : no drop at 100m (50m sup)
    • NSX Naginata (490) : no drop at 90m
    • Bandit (Slow - 440) : no drop at 70m (30m sup)
    • Razor (Fast - 560) : no drop at 100m (50m sup)
    • Jaguar (Slow - 440) : no drop at 70m (30m sup)
    • AMC (Fast - 570) : no drop at 90m (50m sup)
    • NS-11C (530) : no drop at 100m (50m sup)
    • NAX Tanto (520) : no drop at 100m (50m sup)
    Sniper Rifles
    • Impetus (Slow - 500) : no drop at 120m (50m sup)
    • Railjack (Fast - 850) : no drop at 170m (90m sup)
    • Tsar-42 (Slow - 500) : no drop at 120m (60m sup)
    • RAMS (Fast - 650) : no drop at 180m (90m sup)
    Scout Rifles
    • Stalker (Slow - 550) : no drop at 100m (50m sup)
    • Shadow (Fast - 570) : no drop at 100m (50m sup)
    • SOAS (Slow - 550) : no drop at 100m (50m sup)
    • HSR (Fast - 570) : no drop at 100m (50m sup)
    • NS-30 Vandal (520) : no drop 100m (50m sup)
    • NSX Tomoe (520) : no drop at 70m (40m sup)
    Battle Rifles
    • Warden (600) : no drop at 100m (50m sup)
    • AMR (600) : no drop at 100m (50m sup)


    Based on the above testing, I think it's clear that in the vast majority of cases, VS's "no bullet drop" trait is meaningless at the ranges which the various weapons actually function at. I can see some benefit IF you're engaging at >50m (on average) AND using a suppressor.

    Other than that, the only weapons that might really benefit from no bullet drop are sniper rifles and, with a few exceptions, VS sniper rifles have bullet drop. The VS sniper rifles without bullet drop are:
    • Phantom VA23 - a CQC bolt-action, equivalent to the Impetus or KSR-35. I can't see it being realistically used beyond 100m, so this one is irrelevant.
    • VA39 Spectre - a "long-range" semi-auto rifle. Suffers from double-tap and slow bullet velocity. I suppose it could be used at >100m, but the double-tap is a killer at that range. Personally, I find it more effective to use with a suppressor at <100m. Probably irrelevant.
    • Phaseshift VX-S - a dual semi-auto / bolt-action rifle. In bolt-action mode, it has a OHSK against a standard 1,000 health infantryman out to 248m. The bullet-velocity, however, is similar to a CQC LMG like the MSW-R, so to GET that OHSK at range you either need a stationary target (pretty much everybody) or lead really well (not many people). All in all, most people I know who actually use this thing recommend using it with a suppressor at mediumish ranges. Possibly relevant.
    So yes.... the VS DO have a sniper rifle where the no-bullet-drop thing is actually potentially useful. Apart from that one weapon, however, I'm basically convinced that no-bullet-drop is irrelevant outside of the edge case of suppressors at >50m.

    • Up x 8
  2. The Rogue Wolf

    The people who need to listen to things like this won't. They're too busy believing that VS weapons also have zero recoil. :rolleyes:
    • Up x 5
  3. ridicOne

    The trait would maybe become something logically useful if the base design was different. The problem with that is the falloff with weapons, there's not much advantage at certain ranges. When people complain about being sniped by a shotgun from a ridiculous distance, they need to realize they made a mistake.

    Furthermore, if you've ever played other online shooters that actually have bulletdrop that comes into large play, you'd realize how insignificant the whole trait is in this game. For the once out of a thousand it might come into play, it probably comes out as being sheer luck.

    There's always something to nitpick with the VS always has, always will be. Wish people would just play all factions more, before making opinionated claims with lack of testing.
  4. LordKrelas

    What would be nice, if you actually labeled which side had what weapon.
    As well, unless I'm mistaken, since this is a Myth busting, why exactly does it seem to be no VS weapons displayed?

    • Anchor (Slow - 570) : no drop 100m (50m sup)
    • Gauss SAW (Fast - 630) : no drop 100m (50m sup)
    • MSW-R (Slow - 550) : no drop at 90m (40m sup)
    • Bull (Fast - 640) : no drop at 100m (50m sup)
    • NS-15M (600) : no drop at 100m (50m sup)
    • NSX Naginata (490) : no drop at 90m
    No VS weapon.
    All TR , NC, and NS.
    How exactly do we use this to compare to VS effectiveness at range due to bullet drop, when it is absent?

    As for testing out the differences, and displaying data, You don't display VS data at all.

    And what mistake was that specifically, for a shotgun.

    Every faction is nitpicked; TR about their Prowlers, NC about their shotguns, as examples.
    So it's not just VS.

    Also, for long-ranged, Pistols are actually useful.
    The VS & NC defaults in particular are very effective at a distance.
    TR's is effective in CQC or just short ranges.
  5. ridicOne

    If you get sniped by a shotgun and die at a far range it won't be a one shot headshot, as per the falloff comes into play. Which means your being hit multiple times by a shotgun at a falloff range and therefore when you die there was a mistake you had probably made. And again with pistols outside of the blackhand your going to have to be hit more then once outside of falloff. TR's weapons can pray and spray better than the counterparts at further ranges.

    Personally, outside of sniping I don't even think about bulletdrop in this game...

    As per the nitpicking all factions have there nitpicks, VS has just been the most nitpicked since day one.
  6. LordKrelas

    Thank you.

    Yeah, but those pistols are still actually effective, as only rockets & sniper rifles need one shot at range to kill.

    VS, who actually had the Overpowered ZOE (At the time), the VS magrider also was overpowered at the time.
    The Orion...
    The Beetlegueise outpreforming both TR & NC severely....
    You wonder why VS has so many things to nitpick about? Look to the above.
  7. BrbImAFK

    I didn't really see the need to label weapons TR / NC since they were all pretty well known guns (imo at least). That said, if you really need labelling, it's always NC, then TR, then NS.

    As for not testing the VS weapons, what would be the point? None of the VS weapons on those categories have bullet drop, so all I'd be able to confirm is that..... they have no bullet drop. ???????

    Shotguns are irrelevant. Outside of 10-odd metres, shotguns pretty much require slugs to have any hope of achieving anything. And ALL shotguns are pretty much carbon copies, and VS slug-shotties have the same bullet drop as the others, so again, what's the point in testing anything? They're identical.

    As for pistols..... Apart from the Blackhand, which is identical across factions (therefore not really worth testing specifically), I can't think of a single pistol that's worth a damn much past 30 metres. And at those ranges, again... bullet drop is irrelevant.

    Please try to avoid getting sidetracked into completely separate issues. This thread is to discuss NO BULLET DROP, not get into random discussions about the OP/not-ness of the 'Goose, or whatever. Thanks.
    • Up x 3
  8. LordKrelas

    That's useful.

    Test and display VS weapons, as a baseline or comparison.
    Since you are busting bullet drop's effect, would it not be best to show the weapons in the same category that lack it?
    As all the weapons tested are all equally effected, but we don't see any weapon data that isn't affected by bullet drop to begin with.

    So it would show that, if accurate, that VS weapon's optimal ranges without bulletdrop are equal or similar to the bullet-drop affected weapons.
    Without that data, all we can see are TR & NC weapons with nothing to compare it to, since both are equally affected.
    IE, its akin to showcasing how a third car isn't made superior or affected by a different system, by only showing two competing vehicles that both have the same system not used by the third;

    IE we are missing the very data that would confirm or disprove the claim.

    I do apologize for the off-topic, but he did go off like VS is blindly QQ'd about, and as if both TR & NC didn't get similar QQ's.
  9. Campagne

    I can't help but feel you are discrediting the weapons that truly do benefit from no-projectile drop.

    The VS long-range semi-auto rifle for example. On my still-young TR alt, the only rifle I have for infiltrator is the default 99SV. I actually really quite like the weapon, and I consistently score double-tap shots on enemies from any range. However, when against moving targets at a great distance the dual (sometimes triple) headshots become to difficult to bother with given the leading and drop of the rather low velocity comparatively. If I didn't need to account for the drop, such shots would be significantly easier.

    Additionally, with a ballistics computer (which all VS have for free), there is little to no work required to kill stationary targets at any range with the default VS rifle, given that it is literally point and click twice/(thrice).

    No drop on a bolt-action is more beneficial than one might think, given the significantly greater ease of killing targets outside of one's optimal range. (And why let someone run off Scott-free?) Phaseshift is much better off without projectile-drop as well.

    Shotguns used to have no drop for their slugs, but that was super OP and got nerf'd.

    Many weapons do actually have fairly considerable drop in practice when firing at long ranges, combined with either/or soft point and/or suppressors. There is also the fact that we're talking about PS2 meters and not metric system meters; That 100m distance really isn't that long.

    Not to mention the Lancer...

    That's not to say that no projectile-drop is a massive advantage, don't get me wrong. Drop does come into play more often than one might think though. I just feel that it should be given the bit of credit it deserves.
  10. Campagne

    *Grumble grumble* Useless forums double-posting me *grumble grumble...*
  11. MaDiv

    One again, I'm amazed by your content. Keep up the good work! :D

    PlanetSide's bullet drop mechanics in general are cheesy. The law of falling bodies clearly states states the same bullet drop for every kind of projectile, but then again I'm comparing apples to pears here :'D
    (Maybeh VS projectiles use some impact-energy to compensate for the Fg during flight?)

    What I'm missing though is a source which proves that no-bullet-drop is actually a faction trait of the VS, all I could find so far is this:
    No offense, but ya know, no sauce < sauce < VSauce :p
    • Up x 1
  12. BartasRS

    I believe the whole point of OP topic is that "no bullet drop" trait VS weapons have is meaningless in 99% of cases. That 1% is the lucky shot you can pull now and then. IMO only 4 VS weapons that truly benefit from no drop are Spectre (starter SASR), Nyx (Scout rifle), Eidolon (Battle rifle) and Phase**** (VS specific sniper rifle) and all except 2 "sniper rifles" should not be used at extreme ranges anyway.

    So VS gives up ammo pool and damage for debatable perk that is not really usuefull.
    • Up x 2
  13. ridicOne

    Well like anyone a weapon is only as good as the individual your across from... so yes as I believe no bulletdrop has occasional instances where its ********, you have to take in to fact there's alot of ******** in this game.

    Zoe OP was the multiplier not a single unit, its hard for anyone including the devs to realize the potential to something like that. Same as the thing about the OP mag was the Saron. This imo was the design to offset the primaries and vanilla secondaries of the other factions. While, since that point in time, the secondaries have received a massive influx in changes.

    BG isn't as good as the orion, occasionally in the right circumstances it has great effect (where theres no competent engineer) / solo situations. I personally feel the reason behind the orion over usage was the fact oh how much it was used compared to the rest of the arsenal. Which screwed the stats.
  14. ridicOne

    Sorry, I'm done here, I don't like to post much. I'm just not bias...
  15. BartasRS

    We shouldn't even discuss BG or any directive weapons when it comes to faction specific traits as they are not readily available and very limited in choice of attachments.
  16. MonnyMoony

    What the OP was attempting to show was that NC, TR and NX weapons don't have meaningful bullet drop at the ranges the weapons are mostly used at - therefore even if the VS weapons did have zero bullet drop (which many dont) - it wouldn't convey any advantage at those ranges anyway - so the whole "no bullet drop is an advantage to VS" argument is a myth.
  17. LordKrelas

    What about VS ranges for their weapons. As if Bullet Drop is the deciding factor in said range,it would only be displayed in their weapon data nor NC, TR or any NS weapon, as all share Bullet Drop, but VS does not, for those same weapon types.
    As if the range they are used effectively at are different, then that is what the advantage No-Bullet-drop provides.

    So lets fully ensure that it is a myth.
    After all, It can't be all that hard to display VS weapon data proving once & for all, after everything but VS was shown eh?
  18. BartasRS

    OP should post VS weapons only to stop such comments. Still, that would not change the fact that bullet drop is meaningless in most fights. It's not like VS has anything to say on the distance fights are fought! Bases are the same for every side, terrain does not change for VS in some magical way so practical, average distance each weapon is used is THE SAME for every faction and in those situations bullet drop (or lack of it) means nothing.

    Besides, what are you trying to prove here? That VS weapons somehow are overpowered and OP has something to hide by not displaying VS weapon stats?
  19. FateJH

    I recall having a sniper battle using a carbine a long time ago in the game. I was at the northern end of the bridge leading over J908, perhaps a fourth the way across, and the rendering gods were polite enough to let me see a player crossing near the southern end of the bridge, going from one gun tower to the next. All my Engineering self had was an unmodified Trac-5; I don't remember if I learned what class the other guy was. I knew it was terrible range but I didn't care about efficiency in this case - I just thought it would be amusing to try. Originally I lead for long range shots horizontally; but, even using short burst fire, I wasn't able to land anything. I started compensating horizontally and vertically and managed 1-2 hit markers of 4-5 burst by aiming quite above where I thought his head was going to be.

    Of course he got away, how could he not at that range, but it was an interesting long range exchange, and I probably surprised him at how far away I could land shots. From his perspective, I may as well have been shooting straight at him. This anecdote means nothing as gravity on small arms may have long since changed. It's just fun to reminisce.

    Incorrect. OP should perform those tests and post that data on VS weapons because this is how you perform confident experimentation - you have a control group for which you gather applicable data. More to the point, the argument itself is being presented as a statistical comparison against which there are no statistics to compare.
  20. stalkish

    Thread #57,205 about VS no drop.

    Like the previous 57,204 ive yet to decern what the actual point of this thread is?

    Tell us OP, what are you trying to achieve by busting this myth?

    As far as i can see it, all you want is to have the ability to say 'i beat players with better weapons than me' so that overall the VS can continue with this ridiculous notion of 'we have the best players'.

    Although VS does seem to have attracted all the victimised players, so perhaps its not above the realm of reality that they would somehow attract all the quality players aswel.
    But judging by what i see in game, this is unlikely.