Mythbusting PS2 Episode 2 - NC AI MAXs Have Terrible Range Anytime an NC MAX appears on the field, opposing players often scream OP because of the instant kills they always seem to get. NC, of course, claim their MAX is totally UP because shotguns have a tiny range, so everybody else's MAX is better. I decided to investigate and get to the bottom of the issue. I will not be addressing TTK, OP/UP, situationality, MAX abilities etc. today because so much of that is subjective, and I like to think I work with facts. I tested every single MAX weapon at increments of 10m to see how they fared. These are the results. Caveats First off, I main VS and obviously, like most people, I have biases. However, when I write factual / informative articles like this one, I do my best to be as objective as possible. I spent about four hours on this, and fired thousands of rounds of ammo. However, there's always the possibility that an even larger sample size would result in slightly different numbers. I don't believe in absolutes, but I do believe in "good enough". Test Methodology All testing was performed by firing a single weapon. As such, if you're running two weapons, halve the number of cycles to kill. I fired in single shots, aiming at the centre of the torso, at 10m intervals. This eliminates recoil, CoF bloom and dodgy aim. Almost all weapons have fairly large CoF's. As such, I have not adjusted for headshots, leg shots or misses, as these would be present in any engagement at that range. I performed a fairly large number of kills with each weapon, counted up the shots to kill and drew up a bell curve based on the results. After eliminating extreme outliers I selected a reasonable confidence range representing the "normal" shots to kill for each weapon. No weapons were tested past 60m as, because MAX weapons have no zoom optics, at that point targets are about the width of your crosshair, so I just didn't consider it reasonable to try to engage beyond that. Test Results NC Weapons Scattercannon (6 rounds normal, 10 extended)- Normal : 2 shots (0m), 3 shots (10m), lol! (20m)- Slugs : 2 shots (0m), 3 shots (10m), 4 shots (20m), 6 shots (30m)Hacksaw (6 rounds normal, 10 extended)- Normal : 2 shots (0m), 3-4 shots (10m), lol! (20m)- Slugs : 2 shots (0m), 3 shots (10m), 4 shots (20m), 7 shots + RNG (30m)Grinder (8 shots normal, 12 extended)- Normal : 2 shots (0m), 3 shots (10m), lol! (20m)- Slugs : 2 shots (0m), 4 shots (10m), 5 shots + RNG (20m), 8 shots + RNG (30m)Mattock (6 shots normal, 10 extended)- Normal : 2 shots (0m), 3 shots (10m), 6 shots (20m)- Slugs : 2 shots (0m), 3 shots (10m), 4 shots (20m), 7 shots + RNG (30m)Firstly, I realise that "lol!" isn't exactly a precise measurement, but anytime I've used that it means that you can vary from emptying whole clips without a single hit (most common), to killing your target with a single shot (which I did once) because RNGesus decided that nearly every pellet hits the head! Secondly, any time I noted "+ RNG" it means that, on balance of probabilities, the shots to kill number is correct, but RNG still comes into play and you can still get screwed over by it. TR Weapons Heavy Cycler (60 rounds normal, 90 extended)- 7 shots (0m), 9-11 shots (10m), 10-20 shots (20m), 15-30 shots (30m), 25-35 shots + RNG (40m)Mutilator (100 rounds normal, 150 extended)- 7 shots (0m), 9-11 shots (10m), 10-16 shots (20m), 15-25 shots + RNG (30m), 25-40 shots + RNG (40m), 50 shots+ + RNG (50m)Onslaught (60 rounds normal, 90 extended)- 8 shots (0m), 9-11 shots (10m), 10-25 shots (20m), 18-32 shots (30m), 25-50 shots (40m), 45-60 shots + RNG (50m)Mercy (50 rounds normal, 75 extended)- 8 shots (0m), 8 shots (10m), 8-12 shots (20m), 10-20 shots (30m), 15-25 shots (40m), 20-30 shots (50m), 25-35 shots (60m)As above, any time I've noted "+ RNG" it means that the quoted number will generally be correct, but that edge case RNG can still screw you over. Overall, I found recoil pretty controllable when I fired full auto, and was still able to kill targets at extended ranges, although obviously more ammo would've been wasted to lower accuracy, CoF bloom etc. VS Weapons Quasar (50 rounds normal, 75 extended)- 6 shots (0m), 7-8 shots (10m), 9-11 shots (20m), 12-21 shots (30m), 18-24 shots (40m), 25-35 shots (50m), 30-40 shots + RNG (60m)Blueshift (40 rounds normal, 60 extended)- 7 shots (0m), 7 shots (10m), 7 shots (20m), 9-12 shots (30m), 12-16 shots (40m), 14-24 shots (50m), 16-25 shots (60m)Cosmos (75 rounds normal, 112 extended)- 6 shots (0m), 8-10 shots (10m), 10-14 shots (20m), 10-14 shots (30m), 15-30 shots (40m), 20-45 shots (50m), 30-50 shots + RNG (60m)Nebula (50 rounds normal, 75 extended)- 7 shots (0m), 9-10 shots (10m), 11-13 shots (20m), 14-20 shots (30m), 22-28 shots (40m), 25-35 shots (50m), 50-60 shots + RNG (60m)As above, any time I've noted "+ RNG" it means that the quoted number will generally be correct, but that edge case RNG can still screw you over. Overall, I found recoil pretty controllable when I fired full auto, and was still able to kill targets at extended ranges, although obviously more ammo would've been wasted to lower accuracy, CoF bloom etc. Conclusion Based on the testing above, I think it's pretty clear that the NC AI MAX's DO in fact have a significantly shorter effective range than their TR / VS counterparts. Whether the instakills are worth the range tradeoff is a subjective assessment that I won't be getting into. In addition, I noted that, for NC, there seems to be almost no point using any weapon other than Mattocks with Slugs. In addition, most of the NC weapons seem so similar that there's very little to choose from between them. However, while there's no question that NC MAX's have shorter range than TR / VS MAX's, I don't really think that it's quite as bad as the NC claim either. With a limited number of exceptions (e.g. the Tech Plant hall), very few buildings exceed the 30m range of Slug Mattocks so, while NC MAX's will have far less utility as AI in open field battles, they remain powerhouses in reasonably close range and in buildings, i.e. where it most matters. NC AI MAX'S HAVE TERRIBLE RANGE - [[MOSTLY CONFIRMED]]
I don't disagree with this, beyond it not being as bad; - Since RNG still can screw you heavily at 0-10 meters. - Starter NC Anti-personal weapon is a Scattercannon, without Slugs. - 0-10 Meters, is where C-4 is easily thrown & Rockets easily hit. - Usually have to be in range of C-4, IE doorways, or charge into Explosives (Tank mines, C-4) - Just an additional note, not related to your data: NC's starter weapon is the Scattercannon. Which means NC has to buy the Mattlock, not once but twice, then slugs. 2300 certs to have both arms & Slugs. (1,000 per mattlock, 150 per slug) 1150 for a single Slug Mattlock. Where it's all but 2 shots of 6, with slugs at 20 meters. Aka Starter gun for NC Maxes is just prayer that C-4, Rockets & Tank Mines aren't anywhere near the enemy. As with a shotgun, either are camping a door, where C-4 will fly into, smoke your allies near the door by firing not near the door, or need to charge the enemy to begin firing. --- Just to say it again: I don't disagree with your data. Just saying my case.
While NC might be not as effective in longer range, its way more effective in shorter range, especially against other MAXes. Unfortunately DBG decided in their great wisdom to disable the Charge ability, which makes it hard for a NC MAX to get into close range. The NC MAX is really good in AV/AA fights, but now clearly the underdog in AI - thx to DBG But their Shield ability is still a good cover against countershots and to retreat short distances to hardcover, while other MAXes are just fodder
i actually disagree with EVERYONE over nc maxes, the NC say that we have no range options, and that isn't true, a pair of slug mattocks (though insanely expensive to acquire) gives you arguably the most range of any max, crouched and stationary you can hit targets really far away, i remember Joshino even posted a hilarious vid where he used slug max for sniping, though he wasn't crouching and staying still, and he didn't have mattocks, with the odd prayer to RNGesus he still had a decent amount of success for a mess-around. and yeah the TR and VS claim that NC is somehow godmode in closer encounters, that also simply isn't true. the amount of damage that NC waste per tiny mag is so absurd, and you spend 60%+ of the time in the reload cycle leaving you prone for c4 fairies and HAs. someone actually talked about this awhile back and i decided to do the math to finally put the myth that NC maxes are CQC gods to rest: i compared nebulas and hacksaw: the hacksaw is monstrously wasteful with its damage, it takes 2 shots of 750 damage to kill a target, that is 500 damage wasted for every kill, meanwhile nebulas deal a rather efficient 1001 damage over their minimum shots to kill, meaning only 1 damage is wasted. over a full mag the hacksaw wastes 2500 damage on absolutely nothing, while nebula wastes only 10 damage. oh but hacksaws will deal more damage right? actually if you factor in the tiny mags and colossal reloads that isn't the case. even if we pretend all pellets hit (which is highly unlikely) the nebulas actually deal way more damage over time. nebulas deal 49,289 damage over a minute while hacksaws deal 43,650 giving a Nebula a true DPS of 821 and Hacksaw a true DPS of 727 folks can argue against numbers if they like, but numbers do not lie. sure NC max has high alpha, but it has absolutely no sustained fire, you can kill a couple of dudes and then you're dead during the reload cycle, while as VS TR you can kill that same couple of dudes and then keep on gunning through the rest of the squad. also here is the math incase anyone wants to try to dispute it: Damage: Hacksaw 750, Nebula 143 Player health=1000 shots to kill: Hacksaw 2, Nebula 7 Total damage dealt to kill: Hacksaw 1500, Nebula 1001 750 x 2 = 1500 143 x 7 = 1001 Damage wasted per kill: Hacksaw 500, Nebula 1 Damage wasted per magazine: Hacksaw 2500, Nebula 10 True damage per magazine: Hacksaw 5,000, Nebula 10,715 RPM(rounds per minute): Hacksaw 209, Nebula 426 RPS (rounds per second) (RPM divided by 60) Hacksaw 3.48, Nebula 7.10 209 divided by 60 = 3.48 426 divided by 60 = 7.10 duration of fire (number of shots per mag divided by RPS) Hacksaw 2.58, Nebula 10.4 9 divided by 3.48 = 2.58 74 divided by 7.1 = 10.4 duration of cycle (duration of fire + reload) Hacksaw 6.87, Nebula 13.02 2.87 +4.0 = 6.87 10.42 + 2.6 = 13.02 number of cycles per minute (60 divided by duration of cycle) Hacksaw 8.73, Nebula 4.6 60 divided by 6.87 = 8.73 60 divided by 13.02 = 4.6 damage per minute (damage per mag x number of cycles per minute) Hacksaw 43,650, Nebula 49,289 5000 x 8.74 = 43,650 10715 x 4.6 = 49,289 damage per second (damage per minute divided by 60) Hacksaw 727, Nebula 821 43,650 divided by 60 = 721 49,289 divided by 60 = 821 but yeah, back on the range topic, i think an NC max with slugged mattocks is just as good (perhaps even better) than TR/VS
A simple solution for the reload is, to use Extended Magazine on only 1 weapon - of course, you have to reload, but the cycle is different and you are able to shoot almost endlessly (to the moment where both magazines are in a reload) For the TR/VS MAXes it works quite well, never triend on NC, though
firing one at a time works to negate the issue with lack of sustained fire and massive reloads, but then you're dealing pretty low damage giving you a longer TTK than TR/VS, so you don't even have the burst damage advantage i prefer how it is for TR and VS where you can fire both weapons for as long as you need too, to mow down everyone in the room and then reload when it is safe
Do you reckon this problem, should it arise, could be solved by literally pressing one button more, presumably the right mouse one? Use a single gun to cause damage, and when required, press another button to quite literally double your damage, RNG permitting?
Interesting. I can find no fault in your data or methodology, everything seems about as accurate as it could be given the parameters. Would be good to see those bell curves just get the strongest understanding of the variability between the number of shots required for a kill at each given range. Thanks for the interesting data.
Mattlocks. He mentioned them, specifically the slug version, as the only shotgun worth a damn - Which is about right. And it's utter crap for range compared to any VS or TR anti-infantry weapon. - Slugs : 2 shots (0m), 3 shots (10m), 4 shots (20m), 7 shots + RNG (30m) Per AFK's data. 6 shots is the default mag. 10 is the extended. at 10 meters, You use half the mag at least. TR for example, needs 9-11 shots out of 60, For a mutilator without extended mags. So 1000 certs vs 1150 certs: and You use 2/6th of the magazine at 0 meters, 1/2 for 10 meters, 4/6th at 20, and are praying to RNGesus the entire way, with a Mattlock. Shocked you didn't say NC could use the Anti-armor chaingun known as the Gorgon. But you say Snipe, in the same sentence as you said Mattlock; Which unless you call 30 meters "far" is far off. Since, if that was far, I snipe with a damn pistol apparently, for most of my shots given that is apparently 30 meters. You have no ranged option worth a **** compared to Max weapons in the same class. If we counted ineffective miracle shooting, then even then, TR & VS have more bullets & fire rate to pull off such shots better. Considering that none called NC god-mode in close quarters here, unless you count "instant kill possibilities" god-mode as well. You don't really have enough bullets to do that effectively as NC, as You'd fire off an entire arm before the other finishes reloading. Aka do recall, AFK's data showing the literal 6-10 shells being common, with a single one having 8-12 shells. And every single one is a shotgun shell; Pellet RNG is not your friend 90% of the time, so you need another blast. Like a rocket arm seems to reload just as slow. You only have so many rounds, and per the data, can literally take half the mag just to kill a target at a short range. Add in that since you are only firing one arm, and the delay by not firing both already, you give more time to be killed by the opponent - after all, explosive don't take all that long. If this post is oddly aggressive , my apologies. Slightly hammered after a long day.
thats at almost 60m, i click 3 times and the target dies, i'll agree that NC maxes are extremely inefficient with their ammo, this was a total of 6 shots, which is awful when you only have 10, but you cannot deny that slug mattocks can kill things very fast at range, even if you do eat through ammo way more than you should have too. i feel that an NC max with slugs can be just as deadly as the other 2 maxes at range, it just takes more ammo.
Gorgon would've been a good choice if it didn't have lousy CoF, lousy bloom, and lousy DPS. Picking up Gorgons means you're trading every advantage of normal MAX Scatter/Machine guns for the ability to chip paint off armored vehicles. At very least, Gorgon needs to have a considerably smaller max CoF limit to be an actually worthwhile weapon.
Super fast.. as long as the target stays perfectly still after you've acquired them within your crosshair.
A stationary target, with no nano-weave, no motion for the entire firing sequence. Try that with a TR or VS Anti-personal Max, you'll kill that target thousands of times easier at further ranges faster. Piss poor target material for a test, given what I was talking about was In-*******-combat. It also means that compared to proper anti-armor weapons, you have a less effective weapon. The gorgon is the middle ground; And unlike VS or TR, NC has no ranged anti-personal even able to match the gorgon.
this wasn't a test, just an example. i have plenty of kills with slug mattocks, i know they work well at range because i use them. this was more of a simple demonstration of how fast enemies usually die, if you can lead your target worth a damn then there isn't much difference between this example and in-game.
On one hand I want to like this for the outcome. I want to like this for very proper use of the scientific method, but I think that by omitting COF increase you stray too far from what people would experience in normal combat. I also think that you should do tests with sub-optimal aiming. As much as players claim they have picture-perfect aim, the lionshare won't. And just like in real-life, it's the average combat effectiveness that determines how good your army is rather than the combat effectiveness of your elite troops. So a few tests with aim near the edges of infantry should help there, and get a clearer picture at what average players effectiveness will be in combat.
My Preference is Mattock non-slugged, it allows for those 1 click kills with both guns at slightly longer ranges than people are used to. I also have hacksaws from when they were useful, and i have heard people swear by grinders due to the magazine size and damage per magazine, but haven't used them myself. Think the biggest Issue here is the NC Max cannot do constant suppression fire on a doorway like the other factions do(unless you count gorgons). VS / TR max's can all line up and fire at a doorway with long firing times compares to reloads. NC Max's have to work the doorway, risk getting C4'd, Rocket Primaried, or have AV max's pulled to counter, usually comets. When it comes to the suppression fire situation NC max's are weak when it comes to countering a multi grenade pre-breach, VS/TR max's setup in firing lines can just hold their target on the door and keep firing. TR's lockdown max's excel in these types of situations, but its ok our shield will....let us die slower while we can't shoot or reload. I have the shield maxed out, its pretty much useless. Oh yea since they removed charge we can't even breach into a room, just a bunch of slow large targets to C4 and Rocket Primary, and someone thought it was a great idea to put in placed barrier walls in that have to be jumped over. Think the only solution here is to reconsider what faction specific things are, should they be exclusive when it causes massive balance issues. The simplest solution here is to introduce non-shotgun AI max's for NC and give shotgun's to other factions max's. I would love to see a max using a Gauss style weapon.
mine too! its like dual-wielding jackhammers, the tight pellet spread lets you take out enemies on the other side of the room i love slugs for their huge range, but i don't like the reduced damage in close quarters. unslugged mattocks strike an awesome balance between power and range i'm certainly average my KDR has dropped down to around 1.0 which is about as average as it gets, i kill them, they kill me i wish i had clips of using slugged mattocks at range because they are much better than people think, but i've never thought about it as being anything special that has deserved recording XD
