My vision of Light Assault

Discussion in 'Light Assault' started by Iridar51, Sep 21, 2015.

  1. Iridar51

    1. No, it doesn't. Using only parts that suit you and disregarding parts that don't suit you makes you a hypocrite. How many more rounds of this do we have to go through?

    2. Jet Pack is not a flanking tool. It does nothing to increase your stealth, nor does it help you in actual combat. You get a small advantage only once - as you start attacking. That advantage only lasts as long as enemy awareness is bad. Relying on a quality of the enemy doesn't make it a reliable tool. Read the OP, ffs.

    You can even get spotted on the approach. Due to lack of scouting information, LA rarely knows what he's getting himself into when performing that surprise attack. What you may thinking be a flanking attack can easily turn into face to face combat with an enemy squad.

    3. Proof or didn't happen. Tutorial doesn't count, because it's made upon existing meta. I explain how that meta formed in the OP.

    4. Unless I've lost the ability to read and compare numbers, 1.67 KPU of tank mines is greater than 1.24 of C4.
    Your claim that tank mines take more skill to use is ridiculous and heavily biased, and obviously lacks experience.

    5. Thank you, oh the generous lord master for allowing me this liberty.
    So you got little to no insight into Light Assault. That much was obvious from the start, thanks for confirming that yourself.

    How about you go play LA for at least a month. Try to C4 some tanks. Then go play infiltrator for another month. Maybe then you'll realize which of two classes is a real flanker, and which actually takes more skill (risk!) to use, mines or C4.

    As far as I'm concerned, you lack the necessary credentials to have an opinion that's worth considering on the subject at hand.
  2. Serialkillerwhale

    1: Are you seriously still furthering these personal attacks? I refuted your entire arguement on the Video, that's all I needed to do.
    2: Flanking is done through the use of mobility. The Infiltrator's stealth is better suited to sabotage and sniping than traditional flanking, in which the Light Assault's ability to enter through routes that no other class could, routes that would likely be less or even not guarded, especially in the middle of a firefight, is valuable. Just because you disregard that doesn't mean it's not true.
    3: The Archive doesn't go back that far, but we have multiple second-hand sources which all repeat the same lines. I'm not Sherlock Holmes.
    4: A sum total of 65488 MBTs have been destroyed by C4 in the last month while only 58956 have been killed my Tank Mines. That's a 1.11/1 Differential in favor of C4. Stop making up statistics.
    5: You're welcome.

    No, it means I'm not a biased shill who has a hate-on for the Heavy Assault.
    Now stop slinging mud and making up baseless claims.
  3. Iridar51

    1. Are you seriously still denying being a hypocrite? Let me munch it down for you then.
    I used the trailer as an example of how I see Light Assaults - a dashing, mobile soldier that quickly fights his way through to the objective.

    Then you came and claimed that LA in the trailer is performing a flanking attack. Which is basically the difference between potato and potato. Then you said that LA was never meant to have AV capabilities.
    I said "but LA attacks vehicles in the trailer". You said "trailer doesn't count, it's all just cinematics".

    Trailer counted when it was in your favor, trailer didn't count when it wasn't in your favor.
    That what makes you a hypocrite. That is not meant as an insult, just a statement of fact.

    2. Maybe in real world that's how it is. In PS2, where it takes all of the 10 seconds to run from one end of most bases to another, mobility doesn't offer much of an advantage.

    And just because you say so doesn't mean it's true. Show me your extensive playtime as an infiltrator and Light Assault, and maybe I'll consider your opinion about about how the game is played, and which class is better suited for what.

    3. This is clearly written after fairly recent Icarus jets release. Meaning it's also written AFTER the "LA stealth ambush attacker" meta has formed.

    Explosives -> All BR -> Average Vehicle KPU.
    Combined C4: 1.26
    Combined Tank Mines: 1.69
    Who's making up statistics?
    KPU stands for kills-per-unique-user. Mines might get less kills because there's fewer mine users. But 1 mine user kills on average more vehicles than 1 C4 user.

    5. I was being ironic, thanking you for allowing me a basic liberty that's granted to everyone by default. This thread is my opinion, how I see things and how I would like to see things. Nobody is forcing you to oppose it, and frankly I don't get what are you trying to accomplish by doing it.
    • Up x 2
  4. EPIC389

    Mobility eh?

    Give light assaults wall-jumping.
  5. Kcalehc

    While your 'vision' isn't much of one (as you're mostly just stating problems) I agree that the LA is simply, currently, not needed to achieve victory in the game as it is now. Anything the LA can do to help a squad/platoon capture a base, most other classes* could do at least as well, and sometimes better than the LA.

    Once in a point room, the LA is an engineer with limited ammo, or a medic without regen, and is no more useful than any other class at holding the point. The LA's primary combat ability - mobility - is rendered mostly useless once you confine yourself to a small space; which the vast majority of points are.

    Bases with more vertical elements might help; most are largely flat, the jet pack gets you one or two storeys above others at most and there's nothing else to do up there but farm infantry/drop C4 on things. Those light bridge things we've seen in a few places, if used on vertical structures with the control on the other side, and allowing the LA to hack/switch them, could make for some interesting game flow. More secondary objectives and layers to an assault that a LA can bypass to speed things up would help too.
    (As a related thought, putting a few little holes in the roof of some buildings, so you can drop a grenade down would be interesting.)

    I see your 'vision' of the vanguard class that leads the way into the fight, and starts the cap before the main force follows up to complete the hold. And it can work in highly organized play, but it rarely happens in the game as is; mostly due to, I think, the enemies ability to easily redeploy and pull HA and clear you out before your reinforcements can arrive.

    *when I say class, I mean 'infantry class,' I'm not including the MAX.
  6. Iridar51

    It's a vision in what direction LA should move to solve these problems. The majority of voices seem to think that LA should have more stealth and flanking and ambushing, which I don't agree with. This is the vision.
  7. Kcalehc

    Once again you state things it shouldn't have, that's not a vision. A vision encompasses what it should have, an expectation/imagining of future possibilities; this point you have not been clear upon at all. While you've hinted at it in your written thoughts, you've not spelled it out clearly enough to have produced anything approaching a Vision.

    Put together a comprehensive description of the role you expect the Light Assault to play in the game. The contribution to objective based play a LA should/could have; and how they can achieve that. Then you can say you've had a vision, thus far you have achieved merely 'writing down some coherent thoughts on the subject.'
  8. Iridar51

    "A nimble class that quickly fights his way through to the objective, bypassing most static threats, while other classes behind him are tied in combat. The first man on point. The tip of the spear. The vanguard. The first responder. "
    First words of the OP. Not clear enough? Not my problem.

    The reason I formed the OP as a list of problem is because these problems are what keeping the LA from performing the way I see fitting. Solving those problems would allow LA to be the dashing shock trooper I want it to be. Mostly those are inacurate fire while flying, slow jet packs and OP HA shield. Solving those problems would remove the need for "cheap" flanking attacks, and allow LA to take any problem head on, using mobility and speed to survive and get first wherever needed.

    You can call that vision or you can call that flashy bananas on a pancake. I'm not picky. So long as the thought is relayed: LA is not a flanking / ambushing / stealth class. It is an assault class.
  9. Kcalehc

    Clear, yes. Comprehensive, no. Far too vague. How is the LA going to get there, what's he going to be doing once there and how does he help the rest of the team get there. It's all well and good charging to the point, but not so helpful to get slaughtered moments later by the half dozen enemies that can get there before friendly reinforcements arrive. If mobility is the key offensive and defensive ability of the LA, once you're in a point room, that ability is essentially nullified.

    Ok, well there's two more things you didn't actually mention in your OP, (underlined above) which I agree should be changed to improve the LA as a mobile assault class. Rather than go 'over the top' of the enemy line, leaving yourself unsupported behind it, this would allow you to punch through the line, making a hole for friendly reinforcements to exploit.

    Going back to the OP here, could a HA not be (re)classed as a 'static threat' which the LA is designed to bypass, and not face head on? (perhaps just making LA faster by default, or HA slower, or both, would make this work) While they are quite prevalent, hit and run style attacks by a highly mobile assault class can remove their support, leaving them vulnerable to the rest of your forces as they arrive.

    Well you called it a vision, and bananas on a pancake sounds horrid.

    So, to take a guess at what I think your vision really is:
    LA should:
    - be able to move quickly through and around enemy forces. By a combination of either faster default movement speed, or faster jetpack speed or both.
    - be able to engage enemy targets on the move with reasonable accuracy.
    - be able to use their speed and agility to engage and disengage targets as needed.
    - have the capacity to engage all target types to some extent.

    Also to be changed:
    - Bases should have more objectives to complete beyond the taking of the point; some of which may or may not be more difficult to reach for attackers without a jetpack.
    - The HA class should be toned down slightly by either being less tough to kill, slower in general movement or having less flexibility. (Or some combination of two or more of those.)
  10. Iridar51

    Pointless semantics aside...

    - have the capacity to engage all target types to some extent.
    This is what I believe to be the basic right of every unit in the game. It seems a terrible design to me that certain units (tanks) can be 100% immune to other units (infiltrators) or have very few weaknesses to other units (only C4 for LA / medic, limited in application.

    It's realistic, but not fun at all.

    - be able to engage enemy targets on the move with reasonable accuracy.
    At the very least, LA should have at least one LA-specific weapon class that remains somewhat accurate while flying on the jet pack. Faction specific dual wielding seems to kill the most birds at once.

    - be able to move quickly through and around enemy forces. By a combination of either faster default movement speed, or faster jetpack speed or both.
    We pretty much can accomplish this already. Faster jet pack movement is needed so LA can actually use his main ability in combat, at least for defensive purposes. Current jet pack variants are suicide under fire. Unless you can break line of sight quickly, it's certain death to even attempt using them.

    The next step would be offensive usage. E.g. dash jet pack, or Star Wars Battlefront Beta style of jet pack, that hurls you up and forward at great speed. I'm not sure how much I like it, since it screams shotgun abuse. Granted, this is more of a shotgun problem than jet pack problem. That whole weapon class is in dire need of rebalance as it is.

    - Bases should have more objectives to complete beyond the taking of the point; some of which may or may not be more difficult to reach for attackers without a jetpack.

    These objectives already sort of exist as well, though they're situational. This is what I call something that a good LA would do - notice what's holding up the progress of your allies, and go destroy it. It can be a phalanx turret, or simply a nest of entrenched enemies. Generators and SCUs belong in this category as well, I wish more bases had them.

    - The HA class should be toned down slightly by either being less tough to kill, slower in general movement or having less flexibility

    My go-to idea for reworking the HA shield is this. I also believe LMGs deserve a mobility nerf. At the very least, no LMG should have 75% ADS. I wouldn't mind a buff to compensate. Increasing maximum damage range seems like a good start.
    • Up x 1
  11. Osseo

    Why not give the Light Assault the same thing a Heavy Assault has, a shield. They are both the "Assault" classes after all. They could share some similarities.

    Except it would be a jump shield. It's on when you're flying. Not activateable. I think that would make Light Assaults more resilient, but only when flying around, or equal with a Heavy Assault, as long as they are in the air. Of course we lose a little accuracy when flying, but mostly it would benefit us when moving around, which is what we should be doing. It would give the Light Assaults a comparative advantage in the air, but a relative disadvantage when on the ground (versus other classes that have tools and such).

    To me, then the Light Assault becomes a harassing unit. They jump in on the point, soak up fire, zooming around everywhere. Not really a threat of holding a point as they don't want to sit still, but all about disrupting enemy fortifications by throwing in smoke, grenades, picking off "support" classes, etc.

    Just an idea anyway.
    • Up x 1
  12. Iridar51

    A shield that activates when using Jump Jets? That's actually pretty fresh and interesting.
    • Up x 1
  13. Osseo

    Yeah that's the idea.

    I don't know about balance, I'd defer to your judgment because I'm still a pretty new player, but that's what strikes me as the right thing to do!

    (Side note, your Light Assault guide was very helpful for me. Thanks a bunch for making that!)
  14. Corezer

    I play admin, cause somebody's gotta write those bonus checks...
  15. Demigan

    Yes this is true. What kind of changes would you like to see?
    Personally I would like to see:
    General utility: Vehicle hacking tool. Can hack empty vehicles (exception: Empty deployed Sunderers). The "empty" part is to prevent Infiltrators having an too-easy time with this.
    A tool/utility that could fit any class: Power leech weapon. Drains power of the hostile vehicle/aircraft, reducing the ability power energy and maneuverability of the vehicle a bit each hit for a short time.

    LA AA tool: Lauch aerial smoke grenades that create large smoke clouds to blind aircraft.
    LA general tool: Fire a flare that blinds all HS/NV scopes on infantry, vehicles and aircraft.
    LA AV tool: The ability to generate large amounts of smoke from his jetpack so he can create large smoke screens that block hostile tank view. Anyone in the smoke could automatically lose any spot on them.

    Medic AA tool: Put down shields facing upwards to block incoming fire for a bit
    Medic AV tool: Put down shields facing any direction to help block incoming vehicle fire, works as AI tool as well.

    Engineer AA tool: The Archer could be put to better use as AA tool perhaps. Alternatively the much-asked for AA turret, preferably something like a Walker rather than flak with obvious drawbacks of limited turning arc.
    Engineer AV tool: It's got it in the Archer, AV turret and AV mines.

    Infiltrator AV+AA: Vehicle EMP grenades, detonate after traveling X distance so aircraft can be hit with more precision. Reduces the turning ratio and disables gunsights while active.

    I think that the LA shouldn't just be dependant on his Jetpack for mobility. Allowing the LA as only class to fire while sprinting would help him already. Reducing the maximum COF, either through an activatable ability or as class specific passive ability, would also help in keeping the LA mobile while assaulting. If this gives enough of an advantage it would cement the LA's ability in assaulting positions fast and effectively, while the HA would keep his position as better defense class.

    Just some options:
    Ability to fire when sprinting,
    Ability to swap Jumpjets for MAX charge, or even as a seperate tool so the LA has both fast running ability and Jetpacks available,
    Better accuracy while doing anything like jumping/jumpjetting/sprinting etc would make LA the king of attacking and defending while moving,
    Ways to enter guarded area's faster than others to throw off aim or better flush out enemies behind cover.
    And I don't care about shotguns getting some more use.

    They should have more secondary options anyway. Put some Anti-Infantry turrets near the point that defenders can easily use to keep it clear, but have them controlled by a terminal that can be destroyed. HA would have to fight through the AI turrets, LA and Infiltrators can destroy the terminal and help the team. There's a million other little ways you can create objectives for LA and other classes to complete that require other things than extra health and a big weapon.

    I don't think the HA needs a nerf. Another option is to improve the usability of other classes in the game. HA carries a big gun and an additional hitpoints shield. The LA could get something to kill quicker, such as my previously mentioned shoulder-mounted quickfire weapons for some extra DPS in a fight.
    • Up x 1
  16. SupaFlea

    Just Iridar I've been LA from Beta, I live it because its more of a challenge to do well enough with the direct limitations it has to be accepted in a proper Outfits and tactical organized squads. LA's problem has always been it has no real purpose, combat is the primary point of the game, not capping or keeping bases because all one has to do is stand next to a point and it changes possession, and if LA has a problem with direct assault how is it meant to keep a position if you have by passed all threats left your squad behind to get to the point and are left by your self at the objective?

    Once you get good at playing LA you are pretty viable toe to toe even against some heavies, but in most situation LA's "Role" has always been better done by HA(killing) or recon and stealth (Infil smg).

    LA isnt a newbie friendly class either, its not a game where just improving aim slightly with a carbine from LA is gonna fix a lot of your deaths vs Medic, HA or even ambush Infil SMGs because the class tools that help in direct and support combat. Whats happens then is the new guys see the HA running through them with nice sheild etc and they go HA becoming a lot more formidable in toe to toe combat.

    Maybe if the capping system was changed to hacking system of PS1, LA could still defend the point but not have to remain in the open, and any attackers would be weary about putting their weapon away to hack the point back for 20-60s. That also could divert enough attention to re-capping a point and give your squad an easier and faster time of getting to you and backing you up.

    I know i'm not the only one that thinks it or appreciates it but when i play game like PS i like to useful but in my own playstyle, not be forced to play in a very narrow way to useful. Most serious squads usually would rather you be HA or Infil which both fill the roles of LA and are useful for other things.

    At this point i guess we can safely say we wont every be getting a revamp or a tool that was promised so there needs to a usefulness somewhere else for us other than roof camping for kills which i hate to see from any LA.
  17. Reclaimer77

    There's two big problems with "Heavy" Assault. They have the same movement speeds as everyone else. And (of course) the Overshield. Which needs a complete and total rework.

    But the Devs won't touch HA because it's a huge crutch class for pretty much every BR100 in the game. The playerbase is largely completely dependent on the I-Win aspect of popping that stupid shield the second they even see an enemy so they can cheese out the kill.
  18. haldolium

    I actually understand that very well and think LA does need a better placement. But I find it awful to "make it better" by suggesting simply nerfing a very well balanced class into the ground and make that one less viable instead of actually make the LA viable with proper additions.
    It would do nothing for the LA, it just makes the HA suck. The LA would still have no real place and would still be killed off frequently by better protected ground units and would have no place but shotgunning and c4ing. That is not a "vision", that is a HA nerf-rant in disguise.

    I agree that the LA need better tools and better options (same as the Infi actually, although that one isn't as exposed at least and is still a lot more viable for the group with the ability to spot the enemy). That is achieved in giving him exactly that. Better tools, better options and not by nerfing one single other class that for once is actually something that is done comparably well for what PS2 is.

    There were a lot of suggestions made here and elsewhere that I could see as a nice addition. Although I think the primitive way how the capture-and-hold system is done right now is the root of many problems. There should be more diversity, more objectives, things that can't be done with other classes but LA or Infiltrator. At least I would rather see the LA as a better supporting role, instead of an "assault" class where it just comes down to killing again. But even making him a bit better in what he is supposed to do now could do the trick, like adjusting the jetpack mechanics to be actual fun.
  19. Reclaimer77

    1. Where did he suggest nerfing HA "into the ground"?
    2. What part of "Light ASSAULT" screams support class to you? You HA's just think you should be the only ones to do killing, and we're just here to "support" your broken ***** don't you...
  20. AxiomInsanity87

    What about the LA getting a hand held shield option and it can wield it's pistol at the same time? (no ads).

    No cooldown or anything. It can just pull it out whenever it wants?.

    Cannot sprint but can walk normally and can only use it's pistol with no ads. Can also use it;s jetpack at the same time.

    Gives full frontal protection from everything but explosives and tank shells. Feet and small parts around edges can be shot?.

    I've not thought this through at all and am just chucking out a random idea.

    I think adrenaline pump should be standard on LA. Then again, i think all the classes need a slight buff to certain attributes to give them a little flare (for example the inif getting a passive 10% faster shield recharge wait time buff).