My main problem with the Magrider:

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Ztiller, Jul 31, 2014.

  1. asmodraxus

    The Mag is subpar, it needs two gunners to bring it upto the same level as the prowler and to a lesser extent the vanguard, what those tanks do with a single player the mag needs two.

    TR and to a much lesser extent the NC can in theory field twice as many tanks with the same effectiveness as the VS. Discuss?

    If you think the Mag is godly, hint ditch the gunner and then try to play like TR for a day, let me know how many mags you die in, if you say well you need to play the mag to its strength, hint max stealth ganking other tanks from the rear isn't an MBT its what you can do in the Lightning x2 or in a Harasser.

    The mag is pathetic in terms of DPS, armour and speed. Its out manoeuvred by the Harasser and the lightning. So what has it got going for it other than being killed if played like an MBT?
  2. Flag


    ... It's fun to drive?
  3. Linus

    I find each fight very situational. So it may be hard to judge by facts.
    However, i do not feel like the lightnings or the Harassers out manoeuvre me while i make a good use of the Maburner.
    It is even quite the contrary, Solo or not.
  4. Bananenweizen

    The Magrider has the DPS of the Vanguard, the armor of the Prowler, the top speed comparable to both of others MTB's and the highest mobility of them all. So it has a lot going for it. Even not counting the fun factor mentioned by Flag.
  5. Slandebande

    If you go toe-to-toe with a Vanguard in a Prowler, you will also lose (if you are allowed to imply Magriders would lose every single fight, the Prowler will lose the exact same fights against Vanguards as well.

    Furthermore, I prefer the Magrider for suppressing infantry (at least if they aren't forced to use only 1 exit) as the platform is much better suited for engaging infantry on the move.

    A Harasser is nowhere near as effective as a properly played Magrider. A Harasser has absolutely zero chance to take me out while I'm in a MBT (except in the most rare situations) and it certainly cannot do it alone. A Magrider with a good crew has a good shot at it, depending on the territory.

    Two Lightnings are arguably more effective (if only looking at the damage potential) but you need more space to field two Lightnings effectively, and it is harder to concentrate your fire (I'm not saying it is impossible, just saying it is slightly harder when you are in separate vehicles and thus see the enemies from slightly different angles). It is also less resource/cd efficient compared to alternating between the drivers/gunners Magrider.

    I think the effectiveness of the various MBT's relies much more on the situation (at least as a general picture), rather than the individual characteristics alone (although they do play a role of course). There are certainly situations where I would much rather have a Magrider than a Prowler, or the other way around (and with Vanguards as well).
  6. khai

    Since we are arguing over a statement I posted in which I called the mag rider a tank destroyer not a a main battle tank, I think we can safely assume that the original definition which I then elaborated on was what I meant.

    Also I am agreeing with you that VS should get an actual MBT, only adding the, I think reasonable, caveat that if they get a new empire specific vehicle the other empires should get one as well. And since the proposed VS vehicle is a MBT similar in features to the existing ones it is only right and proper that the other factions get tank destroyers (for lack of a more acceptable term) similar to the mag rider. I mean thats only fair.
  7. Frosty The Pyro

    Just for clarity Lightning also has better dps than vanguard primaries, but with all three they are VERY close to each other.

    not realy, the prowler damage advanatage is much larger than the vanguards armor advantage. In a stand and deliver style brawl, the prowler wins most cases.

    1/2 vs 1/2 prowler plows the van
    1/2 vs 1/2 with abilites, prowler still wins handedly
    2/2 vs 2/2 prowler wins
    2/2 vs 2/2 with abilites is the only case were the van comes out on top, and its pretty close to dead. (quick and dirty math puts it at ~17% health remaining.
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  8. Flag

    DPS values are ... poor as a basis for balance.
    But you're not wrong. Although the TTK is the value you'd be more interested in.
    (no I sadly don't remember the differences between them from the top of my head)
  9. Frosty The Pyro

    I did the math of PC vs titan 150 heat before to calculate the advantage ranges, I want to say mag PC was better against all rear armors, prowler sides, and one of the lightnign facings, as well as liberators, maxs, flashes,certain levels of blockade sundy and obviously infantry. Dont remember were harasers fell in, and I am pulling this from ememory. I do still have the spreadsheet i used to calculate it, but i didnt record the translation to targets, and i am leaving for dinner soon so dont have time to start cross referenceing with the effective health spreadsheet.
  10. vanu123

    Not really. The only thing it can do better than the other tanks is that it has slightly better AI than the vanguard, thats it. You forget that the other tanks can flank as well.
  11. Flag

    Excluding utility certifications it's relatively close between them all as far as I remember. Well, besides the fact that the lighting should have notably less HP. But it's biggest limitation isn't the HP, but the lack of a gunner/2nd source of damage output.
  12. WycliffSlim

    Think about what you just said though.

    DPS of the Vanguard: Means lower DPS than the prowler but not better than Vanguard
    Armor of the Prowler: Means same armor as the Prowler and less than the Vanguard
    Top speed comperable: Means similar or less speed than the other 2

    Notice how none of these descriptions show the magrider at being better at something than the other MBT's. In terms of individual stats, at best it's on par with one and outclassed by another. Its trait is that it's fun to drive. In terms of mobility a good Prowler/Vanguard driver can get their tank 95% of the places you can get a Magrider.
  13. DatVanuMan

    Magrider: Less velocity, more drop (Yes, we VS have no bullet drop! LIES:mad:), slowest tank, our ability puts us at a serious risk (The Magburner will become directional soon enough, we all know that), we deal the least damage, our gunners can not look at as many angles as the other tanks, and we are prone to get stuck on many surfaces because of our huge, impractical shape. Plus, our strafe is too slow to dodge anything below 60+ meters, when Prowlers and Vanguards will be able to close the gap because of speed and armor.
    Prowler: More DPS, a faster reload despite having two cannons (Once again, we VS don't have well-implemented characteristics), fastest tank, same armor resistance as the Magrider, and to sacrifice mobility (Doesn't feel Terran), you can double your DPS (Is Terran, but should be implemented in some other way).
    Vanguard: Higher velocity, more damage, faster than the Magrider, reload is only 0.25 seconds slower than the Magrider, most powerful tank, the ability is the most useful of the MBTs, and you will be able to equip the new and awesomely amazing Canister:p
    Everything summed up, Lord MrNature knows how the Magrider SHOULD be.
  14. ohknoh

    Cert out an AP lightning. You'll be happy you did. Pull it any time you're not guaranteed to have a gunner in a mag. Or, just pull it any time. The magrider can't stand up to a prowler or a vanguard, and since this is somehow it's niche, then why not go for a cheaper vehicle that can accomplish the same thing easier.

    The Python AP is an excellent gun. Nice fast projectile, manageable bullet drop, and just a nice amount of oomph when firing it. The lightning's speed and acceleration are great, it's maneuverable, very good at ducking in and out of cover. I prefer the rival chassis, but I'm not an expert.

    You're not going to win any fights against a 2/2 mbt. Unless there are some extenuating circumstances. Snipe from the flanks, move when in danger, use your speed to get to nice repair spots, or simply out run your enemies. Use cover. Use your small profile.

    Heck the lightning AP can even threaten aerial targets, something that the magrider's main cannons can't do. The magrider's cannon feels like it's lobbing spitballs at it's target. Nothing like placing your crosshairs 2 feet above an enemy tank's turret at 100 meters, and having your projectile land in front of it's tracks.

    So, learn the lightning, and pull it anytime you can't get a 2/2. And also consider pulling 2 lightnings instead of a 2/2 mag.
  15. Bananenweizen

    I said: DPS, armor, mobility - three major parts of a balance. Each MTB excels in one of these parts and is mediocre in other two. Magrider happened to excel in mobility. I understand that some VS players would love to also get best DPS/armor for the Magrider but it's not going to happen because balance.

    Since when the mobility is defined as an ability to get a tank to a certain place? That's just one - and a minor one - aspect of it.
  16. ohknoh

    You're making a pretty huge assumption that the magrider's mobility somehow trumps the other mbts. Especially in comparison to the way the other two mbts trump in their respective roles. They can still be nimble, they can still get around fine. Having the ability to strafe comes with far more drawbacks than advantages, at least in the way the magrider was designed.

    Forward locked main gun/field of view. Situational awareness is key when you're piloting a tank, it's far easier to maintain good situatinal awareness when you can quickly swing your turret around to check for threats. If the magrider wants to look around it, they've got to move the entire tank, presenting their side and rear armor to any threats.

    Being close to any type of terrain or obstacle means that you won't be able to point your gun where you want/need to. If any part of your tank strikes an object, you won't be able to continue turning in that direction, meaning you can't aim in that direction. Good enemy drivers will take advantage of this, forcing the magrider out of it's element.

    Since the entire tank is the magrider's turret, it's slow turning speed is another hindrance. Now for obvious purposes the magrider shouldn't be able to turn as fast as a tank's turret, it'd be far to maneuverable, but this comes with the drawback of not being able to aim nearly as fast as a turreted tank.

    Retreating out of combat is a common tactic for all vehicles, esp tanks. For tanks the ability to look behind you while reversing, makes getting away far more likely. You can see where you're going, you won't hit the infantry behind you, or run into anything. This is impossible for the magrider, since looking is tied to moving. Your only option is to reverse blindly, and watch your radar, which isn't ideal at all, and just another poor design aspect that magrider pilots are expected to compensate for.

    There are other issues as well, but let's leave it at those for now.

    In addition to all of these drawbacks that come with our "mbt perk", we're given the worst main cannon out of all tanks, lightning included. Our faction trait is no bullet drop, yet our cannon has the ABSOLUTE WORST apparent bullet drop of any weapon in the game ( pretty sure). This is a huge slap in the face of vanu players, as well as completely negating any idea that SOE designed the magrider with faction traits in mind. Given the inherent skill required to pilot a magrider effectively, why not give us something more than a spit ball cannon? Slowest projectile speed means its' just that much harder to aim with it. Why? You speak so much about balance, what part of balance is that? Would the Magrider become imbalanced if it had a decent main gun? Oh the oft nerfed saron is supposed to make up for it I guess. The gunner seat is certainly important for all tanks, but it should not be a tank's only saving grace.

    The armor aspect is debatable. Since we're even with the prowler in terms of armor/resistance most people assume we're on even footing. However, if you consider the prowler's dps, you can reach the reasonable conclusion that it doesn't need more armor, when it can out shoot any mbt with ease, especially while anchored. Even if it's being attacked from the rear a 2/2 prowler will win a slugging match.

    The vanguard has the lowest acceleration. That's because it can afford to have the lowest acceleration. It's the tank of tanks, a powerful maingun, and superior armor/resistance as well as the I win shield. Despite all of this, it's still faster than a magrider in terms of top speed, and has higher damage out put.

    Just give it a rest. What the magrider is best at is running away, that's your mbt perk, giving up position to the enemy, something that mbts are supposed to prevent from happening.
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  17. Bananenweizen

    How huge this assumption may seem to be it's a valid one because the Magrider performs not any worse than Prowler and Vanguard in the current metagame of the PS2. Read this again and let it circle through your mind: in all the statistics shown in the last year or so the Magrider never was significantly worse then Prowler or Vanguard, on the contrary it often was on the first or the solid second place. And now let me ask you a question: how is it possible that a tank without DPS or armor advantages can hold its own in the overall picture? Maybe it's mobility advantage is somewhat impactfull on the battlefield after all?

    So yeah, you can try to downplay the strength of the Magrider all day long but as long as you can't backup your theory crafting with actual performance values it's all just blablabla.

    And talking about facts:
    You know that Python AP and FPC have the same shell velocity and bullet drop, don't you? So maybe it's time to stop to tell lies how absolutely bad and unusable the Magrider's primaries are?
  18. asmodraxus

    The lightnings cannon HE/AP/Heat has the same velocity and gravity/drop as the mag's
  19. Slandebande

    Sure, imply all Vanguards sit still in a Prowlers deployed LOS, and that the Prowler is deployed before the fight even starts (in such a case, who takes a fight against them from the front, unless you are a 2/2 AP Vanguard, which KNOWS it can win?). If the Prowler isn't deployed from before the fight started, the numbers are a bit different. The Prowler has the utility that is the easiest to exploit as the opposition, and anchoring up within close range is certain death, as they will simply flank you and kill you much faster. Being at further range, means anyone using 2 cents for brains should be able to seek cover and reset the fight. Assuming all tanks sit still and fight is a god-send for the Prowler, and certainly not a text-book way to engage Prowlers. No wonder you think so highly of the Prowler, if that is how you fight them. Take away their Anchor advantage (which is so easy if you just think for a second) then they got nothing.

    Also, what Vanguard runs without Shield? That's right, not really any of them, whereas plenty of Prowlers run without Anchor (at least the high-end ones, and especially after the stabilization "buff" we got). There simply isn't a better alternative for the Vanguards (which is something I have criticized for a very long time mind you!). The Prowler has viable options in FS for instance, if you are going for a more mobile flanking build, and really take advantage of the strong suits of the tank compared to relying on your opponents to be bad and using Anchor. So, in practice, Vanguards win against Prowlers 2/2 by default (if I'm allowed to go by Ztillers original reasoning) as they will take out both Prowlers and Magriders.

    1/2 balance/unbalance isn't the end of the world for me, I'm of the opinion people using their tanks as 1/2 is doing it wrong, and something should be done about that. Note, I'm also an advocate of changing Anchor (I've been so for well over a year) into something which pushes more of the power towards the 2/2 tank compared to giving all the power to the driver (which just causes a even higher discrepancy in 1/2 numbers). That isn't the only reason I want Anchor changed though (as there are numerous others).
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  20. Noppa

    Bad troll but i will bite to that ;)

    Magrider DPS is only 100 less and the armor is 5% less than on Vanguard so it ain't that bad, Saron has the biggest BURST damage in game which is insane and works great on the MBT hunting and nether Lightning or Harasser cant match to that damage.
    IF someone drivers 2/2 vehicles as 1/2 it ain't my or anyone elses problem!

    Lightning moves like a brick with Racer and without Racer the speed is pretty much the same since you can use racer in Magrider without losing any agility, Harasser moves fast, yes and is agile but Magrider kills em in second or 2 cos it actually is the only MBT harasser cant outrun fast enough!