My contribution to the Shotguns conversation...

And also a shameless plug. Deal with it.



So this depicts me running rampant for a good 9 minutes using the Deimos as a crutch. Some of these people I'm killing are orders of magnitude better than me, and ordinarily would have no trouble gunning me down. The fact that my 4am fatigued self can achieve this level of performance (admittedly not fantastic but still better than I would have done given the same circumstances using a different weapon class), is indicative of the type of weapon Shotguns are.

Now I'm not saying they're OP. They're far too inconsistent to be OP, but this clip illustrates that if the person pulling the trigger is even moderately competent, they can use shotguns as a crutch to compete with players possessing vastly superior levels of skill. This is a problem (at least in my eyes) in an FPS game as the entire premise is an environment in which players can pit themselves against each other in a contest of skill. Shotguns undermine this premise, and weaken players' compulsion to participate in that environment as a result.

Granted, positioning and situational awareness are also skills, and I understand that you need to possess more than just great twitch reflexes and headshotting abilities to do well in Planetside. However, there will arise situations wherein a better player, who has better positioning, awareness, and shooter skills, will have to put themselves at the mercy of a shotgun user, and pray to RNGesus and so forth.

This video is also a great example of how by simply having a half decent surround headset, I can gain an enormous advantage when using a shotgun, which in a small fight like this is an invaluable asset which can't really be displaced in any way by my opponents. (it may be hard to tell in the video, not sure how well the directional sound came through in the uploaded footage)

Simply put, shotguns are a great weapon for lower skill players to gain a handicap against better players, and I'm not sure if that's entirely healthy for an FPS game. Additionally, the random element makes them BS play with, and BS to play against, resulting in a tedious weapon whose only purpose lies in being used to pad the stats of lower skill players (or I guess some people have fun using them, maybe?).

Anyway, that's that I guess. Feel free to tear my terrible gameplay apart, I welcome any feedback Also, apologies about the noisy video, I'll need to tweak my compression settings in the future.

From what I see in the video, you're excellent at closing distances without blundering into enemy fire, predicting what enemies are going to do, and listening in general. You know a shotgun's effective range and ability to get the drop on somebody at that range.

Basically, I'm not seeing how shotguns are a crutch as you say. I think of them as a close range DMR; you still need to be a good shot with them regardless of how close to the enemy you are. I've been on some interesting killing sprees with the Infiltrator's semi-auto sniper rifles at ranges where shotguns are at their prime, and I'd imagine the close-range bolt action might feel like a shotgun in some ways.

In some cases, a full-auto weapon with a fast RoF feels like a shotgun that shoots one pellet at a time. I can take down a shotgun user even though they get the first shot off.

Thanks. It's not so much that you don't need to aim, nor that you don't require any skill. Its that there is a threshold of skill which, if met, will simply allow you to steamroll pretty much anyone, and that threshold is not particularly high...

Shotguns do tend to be a nightmare for balance in a game like this. There's a very fine line between shotguns being too good and absolutely worthless. From what I hear, the new changes in the PTS have done just that: moving shotguns from one extreme to the other.

What's worrying me is how Planetside 2 seems to be going down the same path as Battlefield 4. Certain weapons, gadgets, and even tactics are being nerfed to oblivion and left to rot despite there being plenty of alternative balances.

Good thing nobody plays with a shotgun then.
Did you know pump action shotguns have less daily kills then a knife?
Did you know that just the starter LMGs alone get 30 times more daily kills than a pump action shotgun?

Why is noone playing with them, if they just dominate everyone and ignore the enemy's skill level? If they were OP and also everywhere, they would've been a problem. I don't think they're OP, and they're not played at all. So what the hell is the problem here?

Yeah. I'm not saying its easy to balance, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be in DBG's shoes right now.

No one ever said they were OP. You clearly didn't listen. I said they allow low skill players to compete at a much better rate with very high skill players, which isn't exactly a healthy mechanic in a skill based FPS. They have moderately low skill floor, but that skill floor IS their skill ceiling (more or less). You pass a skill threshold and you can use shotguns more or less to their full effectiveness, including beating players with much better mechanical skill than you. They aren't OP, but their role within the game environment is of questionable value as they currently stand on live, and I think the intention of the PTS changes was to make them more fair for both the user and the victim, and less of this crutch style weapon.

The trade off in randomness that they have for their low skill floor/ceiling crutch-ey nature is also an unhealthy mechanic. I seriously doubt that DBG will leave the shotguns as they are on PTS forever. This is just the first stage of a complete rework of a weapon class which is currently less than fun for the vast majority of people - which is of course why they aren't used by many people.

You just judged one bit of my statement, which was me saying 'they're not OP'. Rest of my statement is still there, which is the fact that nobody plays with them.

Edit: Also, I never said they were OP either, I also never said that you called them OP. I just said 'if' they were OP and everywhere.

Also pardon me but as a guy who spent 4 years playing this game completely free, what the f*ck is that exp multiplier

And I lol'd at 2:33. That sh-t was funny

It's the opinion that a concept like this should never possibly exist that drives people away from games right from the front door. Before anything else a game has to be fun enough to feel like it's worth keeping playing and, for that, you need to give people samples of what it's possible. There is absolutely nothing wrong with giving players learning handicaps. Even if those tools fudge the definition of a "two-wheel bicycle," training wheels are essential tools in learning how to ride a two wheel-bicycle. What matters is not that those stabilizing wheels exist but that a less-forgiving mechanic beyond them is seen as a much more lucrative pursuit to eventually attract the player away from using the wheels.

If you don't think they're OP, nor are you claiming that I am saying they are OP, then I apologise for my tone. You are not the target of this rant XD (that'd be all these people crying about the nerf on PTS, despite it likely being the first step in a significant overhaul)

The exp multiplier is the anniversary bundle heroic boost, my membership boost, a 3 day boost that I got for free (somehow? idk. I know I never paid for it), the 15% of global pop boost (which is ridiculous by the way, but that's off peak Briggs for you I guess) and some other sh*t (not sure what exactly, but so long as I keep raking in the monehs, I'm not going to question it)

I understand your sentiment. And I don't have any real problem with crutches by definition. Its the way shotguns specifically are implemented in Planetside 2. They don't see any great performance increase when used by a vastly better play (its there, but very minimal), which is a problem, because it means that you pick up a shotgun, start getting kills with it, and then that's more or less it. It can't really teach you anything more. Also, more often than not, the ones getting killed are oblivious new players who don't know how to minimise the risk of being shottied, and its a really frustrating way to die.

An example of a crutch that scales better with skill and rewards players for improvements to their gameplay, while still being accessible for new players, is the gen 2 SMGs. They have a nice high fire rate, high mag size, and fairly forgiving recoil, but don't have any innately uncontrollable or overly randomised elements to them, meaning that an increase in player skill will directly translate into an increase in performance. The Sirius was my first auraxium, and it was fun to be a bit more competitive, while also allowing me to learn and improve as a player.

I fail to see all the players that could easily out duel you in carbine wars, all I see are br <70....unless you're trying to tell me something

pooEyes, NinJiom, and a couple of the others regularly beat me under normal circumstances.

So if you took a sniper rifle and killed them at range, would that mean sniper rifles deserve a nerf too because you don't usually win with a carbine?

You got in their face and won, I fail to see why sniper rifles are any different.

I find shotguns to be a niche weapon in my hands............good for tower stomps and fighting inside small rooms but at a big disadvantage anywhere else. The changes on PTS don't bother me much - going to make default shottys more like the Baron by the sound of it. That thing has lower damage per pellet with a tighter spread giving it a bit more effective range.

I think this game need a low skill floor, low skill ceiling weapon for the new players to learn the game with. The new player will be able to get kills with the weapon but once they reach a sufficient amount of proficiency will find the weapon too limiting and graduate from it. Right now shotguns are the weapons that fit this criteria.

Not sure that the gen 2 SMGs are a more newbie friendly tool. The temptation to fight at non optimal range with SMGs is very high while the shotgun punish any attempts at doing so and thus force the learning of the weapon's optimal range.

IMHO the main problem with shotguns is range inconsistency in general and the fact that it's power scales down the more people there are.

Most bases are biased towards close-mid range engagements, in which the currently most used weapons are best suited for (LMGs, ARs, carbines, an occassional sniper or SMG). Shotguns are extremely inconsistent in this, as if you take it into an average corridor and aren't in your opponent's face, you die. If you take it out in the open, you die. If Vanu forbid, you're out in the open, you just die and there's almost next to no room where shotguns are any good. This is especially true if you're in a big fight where there are a whole ton of enemies going everywhere, and you can't cherry-pick at what range you should shoot them because in most cases by the time you are in ideal range. You'll never see them on most fights because they're simply bad in such circumstances.

But if you take a shotgun into a Biolab or a CQC-centric base (most tower fights) or are in a small fight where you can afford to sneak around, do crazy maneuvers and where there aren't 40 billion people shooting you from all directions and ranges, you instantly win the game because if you aren't awful, everything is conveniently in your face all the time so you get to use your TTK advantage to full effect and you don't need to pay nearly as much attention to flankers like in big fights and can set up death traps/surprise attacks easily.

This is the problem. They bounce between I-lose and I-win guns. In large fights they're nearly not as effective because of the constant stream of people in all directions and you're sometimes forced out of your ideal range, but in fights that are smaller (or in general you have more control in) you can do crazy things that your opponents can't react to. They are either OP in certain circumstances or absolutely garbage because bases are either sniper heaven, CQC fests, giant cluster-***** and meat-grinders and they're only consistently decent in super rare rumored balanced bases where there's actual range variety.

The approach to make shotguns more versatile yet less powerful was stupid IMO, because it was misunderstood on why they were under-performing. It was never a problem that their versatility was bad, it's that it's niche is either dominant or non-existent in bases and that needs to change, and this game definitely needs a map revamp to fix that (and many other things associated with bad map design, feels like almost all bases were meant to look good first and be actually fun to fight in second).

A map rework just for one weapon could easily put the meta towards CQ guns and throw long range out the window.

If they really feel versatility is the route they should go then they should split the difference, make it so some shotguns do better a little farther and some win closer, as it is right now there's no reason to pick between 1st and 2nd generation pumps, they both do the same, high mag and fast reload semis have pointless differences.

That sort of works with their plans on the AR and LMG rework, long range feels better than close and close feels different from long.

Two problems with that.

First of all, skill equalizers are ****** excuses for a poorly balanced weapon, and players who want to git good need to git good.

Second, Shotguns have a fairly high skill floor compared to standard automatics. Low RoF/CQC engagements, high CoF and range limitations all make for a very niche weapon that does very little to teach a new player how to handle 90% of the weapons in PS2.

What would actually be a low skill ceiling weapon, would be a high RoF CQC carbine like the GD-7F or the Serpent. High enough RoF to allow a lower aim player to chew through shields, nanoweave and compensate for poor tracking skill, more then enough range for a player with even the most moderate understanding of battle flow to not get caught outside it's range, and respectable hipfire that allows players to focus on dodging rather then trying to aim very well.

The difference is, that those same high RoF carbines can have a higher skill ceiling as well, when you choose to focus on headshots and positioning, you are rewarded. Shotguns, on the other hand, have very low skill ceilings as well, pigeonholing them into mediocrity.

2 major issues,

first, you're using a pump action,
people are mostly complaining about the change to regular shotguns
(now requiring 10 of the 12 pellets to secure a 2 shot kill, with 3 shot kills taking longer than most other weapons in the game.)
(meaning the majority of the time now, even with perfect aim in cqc you will be outgunned by dudes with an LMG/carbine/smg/AR.)

secondly, you're on console (judging from the way you move your character).
ofcourse you'll do better hipfiring a pump action shotgun than someone who has to react and then aim a long range weapon using a controller.
with mouse and keyboard someone with a long range weapon can instantly have it pointed at your head,
there is a world of difference between platforms.
poke your head out from across a room on PC and you're dead.
miss a shot on pc and you're dead.
try to rush across a room at someone on pc and...yep, you're dead