[Guide] My challange to the community: Calculate TR's UP weapons with this

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Demigan, Dec 1, 2014.

  1. Demigan

    !I feel that anyone who still complains about UP weapons at a distance on TR or any other faction needs to prove this. I have alread given the tools to simply fill this sheet in and get a good, actual DPS with trigger discipline, usable at different ranges!

    I've seen several threads that complain about TR's weapons being underpowered, stating things like that they are only noob friendly and not pro-friendly. But I haven't seen any actual evidence of any of it.
    So I created the following little excel sheet, if you want to know how it works read the long version below: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-0nAFSq5c6yNGZISm13TzZoUDQ/view?usp=sharing
    Use the following spreadsheet for the most recent data that you need to fill in the excel sheet:

    Go to "gun stuff" where you can see just about every statistic of every weapon. What we are interested in is the "first shot recoil multiplier", minimum COF, maximum COF, "recoil decrease" and COF bloom per shot. Additionally you can see which weapons have predictable horizontal recoil to one side, and which have unpredictable horizontal recoil to both left and right.
    Long version:
    Use the excel sheets above to calculate the actual DPS with trigger discipline. At which point the math begins. You decide at each distance what your maximum COF is. One way of doing this is by taking one weapon as your basic, standard weapon. Now fire at your enemy in the VR and decide what kind of burst you need to hit him without your COF becoming too big, and at what range. Use the spreadsheet to calculate how big your COF is after that many shots.

    Now that you've decided what kind of COF is the maximum you allow for that range, you can calculate the amount of shots it takes to get that COF with any weapon, whether NC, TR or VS. Since you can calculate the amount of shots, you can use the ROF to calculate how long it takes to fire those shots, and use the "recoil decrease" to calculate the time to reset your COF.

    Note: Recoil Decrease is the amount of recoil recovered per second after shooting. Recoil decrease takes place after a short delay (generally equal to a weapons time between shots) when you have stopped firing.

    So there you have it! You can calculate the DPS each weapon can have at different ranges while using trigger discipline to keep your shots accurate. Basically your formulas look like this:

    Amount of shots (per trigger discipline cycle)=1+((maximum allowable COF-(minimum COF+(first shot recoil multiplier*COF bloom per shot)))/COF bloom per shot)


    Time for 1 trigger discipline burst with COF reset=(RPS*amount of shots)+(max allowed COF/recoil decrease)

    Average time per shot with trigger discipline=Time for 1 trigger discipline burst with COF reset/amount of shots (per trigger discipline cycle)

    RPM with trigger discipline=60/Time per shot with trigger discipline

    DPS with trigger discipline=(RPM with trigger discipline*damage per shot)

    This way you should be getting a graph that should look a bit like this:
    CQC: large COF allowed, high DPS weapons automatically have better DPS

    Mid-range: Smaller COF allowed, high ROF weapons end up with DPS closer or equal to low-ROF weapons

    Long-range: very small COF allowed. At this point starting COF, first-shot recoil multiplier, bloom per shot and recoil decrease start counting a lot more than just ROF, which means the weapon’s DPS will be based on this. This makes the difference (and argument) between low ROF and high ROF weapons mute, as there are much more important things in the calculation that define the DPS a weapon can give at range.

    !I feel that anyone who still complains about UP weapons at a distance on TR or any other faction needs to prove this. I have alread given the tools to simply fill this sheet in and get a good, actual DPS with trigger discipline, usable at different ranges!
    • Up x 1
  2. Iridar51

    Recoil decrease has nothing to do with cone of fire. If you're gonna challenge the community about their knowledge of weapon mechanics, at least learn those mechanics yourself:

    The spreadsheet - while eternally useful and I'm grateful to its author - has been known forever. Don't tell me you JUST have learned about its existence =\
    Yelling: "look, you can calculate CoF and DPS!!111" doesn't tell anyone anything new.

    As for the topic, the reason people are saying that TR weapons are underpowered at range is not because of the CoF, but because of horizontal recoil and low damage per shot.

    A typical 143 @ 652 TR weapon has 0.2/0.2 horizontal recoil, while most 167 @ 600 RoF have 0.175/0.175, so not only they do more damage per shot, but they have less horizontal recoil per point of damage done.

    Another reason high bullet damage weapon are favored for ranged combat is because it's harder for the target to control the damage intake this way, because it's less predictable, less steady.

    Hitting individual shots to finish off a target is also easier due to generally better starting CoF, and those shots will do more damage, hence higher chance to finish off in one shot.
    • Up x 11
  3. Cloakndagger

    School's got 3 weeks till it's out for Winter Break and the teacher up 'n pulls a research paper on us, wtf
    • Up x 8
  4. Paperlamp

    In order of TTK on standard target at max damage range-

    AC-X11: minimum damage 143 @ 80m + HVA, .175 / 0.2 Horizontal recoil, advanced forward grip
    Mercenary: min damage 125 @ 70m but no HVA, .175 H recoil
    Pulsar C: min damage 125 @ 70m + HVA, .175 H recoil, adv grip
    T5 AMC: min damage range 112 @ 60m + HVA, .2 H recoil + angle bias, adv grip
    Cougar: min damage range 125 @ 70m + HVA, .1875 H recoil + angle bias

    So TR's are less accurate with worse TTKs making them also less versatile. The only thing T5 AMC has going for it is high velocity(but Razor equals it with better damage at range), and the only thing Cougar has is 5 extra rounds over the Razor which has better velocity and hip-fire.

    Angle bias is a downside BTW, everyone who's really delved into looking @ PS2's recoil patterns has figured this out. It puts an angle on the whole pattern, to put it as simply as possible, rather than limiting horizontal recoil to one controllable direction. It is a negative and only makes the gun harder to compensate recoil for and makes landing subsequent headshots less likely as well as making leading a target more difficult.

    AC-X11 pairs second best accuracy* with best ideal TTK and best damage at range due to uniquely high dmg tier/min damage range
    Pulsar C is the highest accuracy* with 3rd best ideal TTK
    Mercenary is the 3rd best accuracy with 2nd best TTK although not as good at range
    T5 AMC is the 4th best accuracy with 4th best TTK but worst damage at range
    Cougar is tied with Razor as 5th best accuracy with worst TTK

    * Could be argued AC-X11 has highest accuracy due to its lower starting CoF which is 0 vs. Pulsar C's 0.3, but I don't think this makes a difference until out of carbine effective range.
    • Up x 3
  5. Demigan

    "Recoil Decrease: 18. Measured in degrees per second, Recoil Decrease determines the speed after which your crosshair returns to original position after you stop firing.
    • High Recoil Decrease value is handy for burst firing, as it allows you to quickly re-acquire the target after a burst and re-center your crosshair on it."
    That's what it says on the site. I used a quote from the gunstuff explanation from the link I sent, which is what I based my calculation on. It specifically says "Recoil Decrease is the amount of recoil recovered per second after shooting. Recoil decrease takes place after a short delay (generally equal to a weapons time between shots) when you have stopped firing." in the file itself. So I used that.
    Now ofcourse either could be wrong, but until we find difinitive proof of either (it says on the site that it's a theory, not actual evidence of how it works) I will use it as I've found how it works. Which is that the first shot has a larger increase of the COF, and that the COF decreases at a certain rate by the recoil decrease. It might actually be a factor for both, where else would the COF decrease come from?

    As I write it, I see I forgot to add the time before this decrease starts, which is the the time it takes to fire one bullet after one was fired. It shouldn't be a terrible problem though.

    Exactly, I've known about it for some time, and I've referred to it on occasion. From what I know they update it from time to time.
    The thing about my sheet is that people can now determine a maximum COF that they think allows you to reliably hit a target. Then use it on any weapon they find, and calculate a DPS based on the trigger discipline required.

    Which are completely bogus. Low damage per shot is offset by the ROF. They then continue to reason that TR weapons are bad at range is because the COF increase is too big...
    Which means that they want to know the amount of DPS you can use when using trigger discipline. They reason that because they reach a too big a COF faster due to their ROF, that they are less accurate. But with my simple excel sheet you can calculate the actual DPS every weapon has when using trigger discipline without getting a too-big COF on any weapon. This is the most accurate I can come up with to definitively say what weapons are correct or not.

    The only time horizontal recoil matters, is when it's randomised in both left and right directions. In all other cases it barely makes any difference to your aim. When you have a set recoil patter to the right and up, it's easy to counter it by doing the same thing over and over again.
    Just as an example:
    Countering the same recoil on a 2-dimensional plane (horizontal and vertical) to keep on-target requires relatively little trouble. I didn't even know it existed until I tried it in the VR room after I saw people complaining about it, so easy is it to counter, I didn't even realise I was countering it!
    Now you start strafing around your target, suddenly you have to keep a spherical, 3-dimensional aim on-target, which varies every time you switch direction. This is so much harder to do, it makes the horizontal/vertical recoil almost meaningless. Sure, it will have some effect on your aim, but it's neglegible.

    The problem with this is that it's all conjecture. There is no proof at all! How much extra ROF, and how much less damage, create a weapon that is unbalanced this way? Since most higher ROF weapons have lower bloom and fast recoil-decrease they also have an advantage with their disadvantage, which could balance it out. Has anyone calculated where this point is? If your bloom is low enough, you can even be more accurate than others. People have so far just looked at the numbers and said "in some cases the bloom is slightly lower, and with high ROF it still increases faster!". Well, that only warrants more trigger discipline, which means it's DPS will go lower... but will it go lower than the other weapon? Does anyone know? No they don't! They just assume it!
    This excel sheet will prove it once and for all. If people compare two weapons they can instantly see: hey, at range X when trying to keep your COF as small as Y, weapon 2 will have a higher DPS and is better.

    So... where in any of this does the minimum COF, ROF/RPM, first shot recoil multiplier, bloom per shot etc come in?
    You even don't have an RPM there! what the hell! You just say "there's a horizontal recoil which is bigger, so it's worse". While you gloss over the fact that horizontal/vertical recoil can be countered by manual aiming (and learning the goddamn pattern that most of these weapons use for recoil). While COF increase cannot be countered by manual aiming, but by trigger discipline.

    In fact, many people claim that TR weapons are noob weapons because the skill-ceiling is low. But if horizontal recoil was so bad, wouldn't that mean that anyone pro enough to counter it (which I can do in my goddamn sleep!) would be able to get better?
  6. Paperlamp

    RoF is a factor in TTK, and I listed them in order of TTK.

    You also simply don't understand horizontal recoil if you think you can "learn the goddamn pattern".

    CoF increase for these guns isn't a major factor since it's normalized so that each puts out about the same damage per bloom. Starting CoFs favor the 167 tier, with the 200 tier being best while stationary but worse while moving, but not by large margins.
    • Up x 4
  7. zombielores

    You listed 100% accuracy at 60-80 meters with no stats like bloom, v-recoil, head/leg/arm multiplier, CoF start or finish.
    I didn't know people were so MLG pro able to obtain 100% accuracy at 60-80 meters, that's just plain nonsense.
  8. Paperlamp

    No, that's within 10m. Max damage range. For some reason, some of the higher accuracy guns are also better all-rounders due to having better TTKs at shorter ranges as well. AC-X11 takes a bigger hit to TTK from nanoweave, granted, but headshots ignore nano now and these are guns you want to aim for the head with.
  9. Champagon

    This is why this game needs weapon looting so desperately
  10. Hatesphere

    I personally find it easier to hit moving targets at range with high rate of fire weapon, if they guy is standing still then it does not matter, I will just tap fire him to death and move on. been playing TR heavily since the emerald merge and i really dont see what people are complaining about.
  11. Flag

    I'd nick off with a TMG-50 in a heart beat.
    • Up x 2
  12. pnkdth

    No, no, and no. This is the complete opposite of my own experience with weapons with single angle bias.

    In the case of both the T5 AMC and Cougar they both have attachments which makes this trivial to learn. This coupled with a low 1st shot multiplier makes bursting easier to controll and allow you to make longer bursts too. It is simply a matter of getting a feel for the angle they pull at. If you have trouble with this, VR should be your next stop.

    The only time a single angle bias is bad is if the weapon has a big 1st shot multiplier and/or an unpredictable recoil pattern. This is reserved for CQC/general use weapons for the most part(such as the TRV, GR-22, MSW-R, Pulsar LSW, Trac-5, Solstice, etc) in order to limit long range use. You can still get some mileage of these at longer mid range, and I've managed to do just that with, for example, the TRV.

    The great thing about single direction recoil is that you know which direction it is going to pull. That is what makes it possible to compensate for. Shooting at moving targets is something you learn to deal with.
    • Up x 1
  13. Demigan

    You listed minimum damage, not maximum damage. So you want us to use minimum damage for people at 10m range?

    AC-X11: 1666,67 DPS minimum range, 1191,67 maximum range
    Mercenary: 1670 DPS minimum range, 1250 maximum range
    Pulsar C: 1606 DPS minimum range, 1202 maximum range
    T5 AMC: 1553 DPS minimum range, 1217 maximum range
    Cougar: 1530 DPS minimum range, 1146 maximum range

    What you completely ignore, however, is that there's different bloom sizes for most of these weapons, as well as different starting COF's, different magazine sizes and different reload times.
    Just look at the AC-X11 and T5 AMC. AC-X11 has 24 bullets in the magazine, 0,14 bloom per shot with hipfire, 0.07 with aim.
    T5 AMC has 40 bullets in the magazine, 0,10 bloom per shot with hipfire, 0,05 with aim. The things are almost incomparable with just DPS. Even then, the AC-X11 has higher DPS at short range, at which time hipfire becomes highly adviced, and the AC-X11 is the worst hipfire weapon available. And at longer range, the AC-X11 has a worse DPS than the T5 AMC, even though the AC-X11 is known to be one of the best longer-range Carbines for the NC...

    It actually makes my own excel sheet mute, as it only calculates DPS on different ranges with trigger discipline. Still, with all the people putting their eggs in just the "we got bad COF due to high ROF" basket it will probably serve some purpose.
  14. Gibstormv2

    [quote="Demigan, post: 3034984, member: 181911" Still, with all the people putting their eggs in just the "we got bad COF due to high ROF" basket it will probably serve some purpose.[/quote]

    Does anyone even put any eggs in this basket?? I thought the argument was that TR has the most random Horizontal shake.
  15. Iridar51

    There's even no reference to the CoF in the definition, what the hell man. RECOIL, not cone of fire. You don't care about anything except proving your point, so much so that you didn't even read attentively.

    "COF increases by 50 per second moving to a stance that has a larger minimum cof, and decreases by 20 per second when returning to a lower minimum value." says on the 9th line of the same "notes about gun stuff" page, but reading is hard, why bother reading past 2nd line, right?

    So CoF increase/decrease stats are actually the same for all infantry weapons, WHICH YOU WOULD KNOW at least from my guide if you had followed the link I gave you in the first post, but why bother about the truth, let's just push your uneducated position, right?

    Since you barely know anything about weapon mechanics, you can't claim that.

    So not only recoil decrease, but you don't know anything about horizontal recoil either. Dude, just stop.
    From what you have said, you spent like 15 minutes looking at that spreadsheet. I spent last year dissecting, analyzing experimenting. I have laid out my findings in my gunplay guide, while YOU have on your side only conjecture. Don't start an argument with me that you can't win.

    It's not 1 and 0, any weapon isn't just "good" or "bad" at range. But some weapons are worse, and some weapons are better. 143 damage weapons are generally worse for ranged combat.

    Horizontal recoil can't be countered by definition, not on a small scale.
    CoF sizes are more or less the same for most automatic weapons, and CoF bloom is made in such a way that per point of damage weapons will have more or less the same CoF, so CoF is actually what can be thrown out of the equation, not based the equation on it.
    People who are saying TR weapons are newbie-friendly are referring to starter weapons, which have high DPS and large mags, meaning they can just spray someone in close quarters, where recoil doesn't matter that much.
    • Up x 1
  16. Paperlamp

    I listed them in order of their simplest max damage body shot TTK, but included their min damage ranges when describing them. Maybe that confused you.

    Also DPS =/= TTK (I know for a fact the Pulsar C's TTK is shorter than T5 AMC), and the higher the bullet tier the longer it takes for them to reach the lowest damage tier so comparing minimum DPS is pointless which is why I used max.

    And here's bloom : bullets to kill ratio (which I haven't ignored you just don't read carefully) -

    125 tier: 8 bullets to kill * .5 bloom = 4.0
    143 tier: 7 * .5 = 3.5
    167 tier: 6 * .6 = 3.6
    200 tier: 5 * .7 = 3.5

    Of course that's @ max damage, at longer ranges bullets to kill varies depending on distance due to having different drop-off ranges as I just noted. Overall bloom is not crippling high damage tiers, it's not even a notable disadvantage really.

    I also didn't ignore starting CoFs, as I said 167 > 143 for starting CoF, with 200 dmg being best while stationary(0.0) and slightly worse while moving(.32 vs. .3).
    • Up x 1
  17. Iridar51

    Challenging common beliefs is fine and welcome, but you should do so in educated manner, with testing and experimenting, not "hey I found this and I think it works this way!"
  18. Paperlamp

    Your experience is wrong. Iridar has already linked a page describing how it works. When you pull against an angle bias basically all you're doing is getting it closer to the pattern an identical gun with 0/0 angle would already have.

    The horizontal and vertical recoil of a shot will always be orthogonal(at a right angle) to each other. The angle is applied to the whole pattern, it's not making it more predictable just forcing a more difficult angle to compensate for than straight vertical.

    A gun with 0.4 vertical recoil but a 25 degree right angle bias, for example, will recoil 0.4 degrees tilted 25 degrees to the right. The horizontal recoil will be tipped the same degree so that it is still at a right angle to the vertical recoil component.
    • Up x 1
  19. Paperlamp

    I'd nick off with an Orion :p

    For longer range though I'd pick the GD-22S or EM6 over the TMG-50 TBQH. Unless you just don't like the sound of NC guns which is completely understandable.
  20. Iridar51

    Because Pulsar C has higher DPS. You're correct that higher DPS doesn't always mean faster TTK, just a bad example =)