Musings of a magdriver, the magbuff. (and buff to my enemies?!?!)

I'll start this off by saying I'd like to promote serious discussion here, no bias. I'm not perfect but I do my best to remain logical even when I feel passionate about the subject, I'll ask you folks to attempt the same.

Firstly I joined the VS because of the magrider, if the magrider had not existed I would have joined the NC/TR or maybe not have even played the game at all. When I first started I didn't have many certs, I wanted to cert out my mag but I found I couldn't make enough for it to be worth while (remember that vehicle destruction gave very few points at release, I didn't have HE until after the nerf). Every chance I had I'd jump in and gun a more fully certed one but in the meantime I spent my first 40-50 BR's as medic getting the certs to make my tank be good enough. So although my time spent in a mag is low the majority of my experience is in a fully certed mag entirely focused on fighting enemy tanks, I am not a farmer.

The current magrider is "not horrible" but TBH I feel its built on conflicting ideas and a jumble of failed attempts on multiple roles. The mag has been called many things, a "sniper tank", a mobile tank hunter etc. but in its versatility it only succeeds at being "ok" at a bunch of things while lacking the strengths to be best at any one thing. Despite being a sniper tank it has the worst main gun and the second worst secondary for this, despite being a stealthy tank hunter it is the slowest land vehicle and can be outgunned even by a surprised/flanked vanguard. In addition to this anyone who feels the mag is lacking is hit by the double stigma of 1) being a tank driver, so infantry freak out over any proposed buffs/adjustments and 2) it being at one point OP, so any talk is drowned out by those accusing of typical VS op whining.

Higby has said that "
The vision for the Magrider has always been to have it be the most maneuverable MBT. It's advantages come from it's agility, mitigating damage by avoidance, and literally running circles around the other MBTs in combat.
"
Which is honestly hard to believe, this games saturation of power creeping guided weaponry have negated the mag's
dodging abilities, a prowler can sit in one place and out turn a mag while outdps-ing it, and its agility outstripped by the newcomer harasser which can run circles around the mag.

If you have a hard time relating imagine if they nerfed the vanguard, made the lancer and striker ignore the van shield and then added a common pool dune buggy that had more armour than it. This is the kind of situation the mag is in, outclassed and obsoleted.
Oh and for an extra kick in the teeth
"
- When "stalled" on a steep hill, Magburner doesn't get you over it anymore. This is intentional. We have a limit to the angle of the hill that we want armor of all types to be able to traverse. Right now it's probably a bit too constrained on Magriders, and we will probably pull it back somewhat, but, Magburner will not allow you to traverse steeper angles than normal movement will allow.
"
Yet they allow the harasser to do the same thing but at a higher speed and twice as often.


We can't undo the harasser, we can't remove all lock-on's.

So we can make tiny lip service adjustments to the mag (SOE seems reluctant to even do that: Saron) or we can talk about what really needs to change.

I've talked before in depth over how strafe dodging works (https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2...agrider-strafe-experiment-help-needed.139734/) but there are a few problems with strafe as a mechanic.

1. This isn't an RTS or D&D, we don't have percent miss chance, we have physics. There will always be ranges at which it is impossible to dodge and ranges at which it will be impossible to hit, and a very narrow region where it comes down to a players reaction time and aim. The mag's nerf was primarily just which range this occurred at. This is a zero skill system, skill can't enable the mag to dodge at short range and skill can't enable its counters to hit at long range.

1. AV rounds come in a large variety of velocities, a dodging distance balanced for one would be vastly different for another
2. Its frustrating to fight, the most recent evidence is the ZOE, even with heavy momentum on side to side movement and dealing with much higher velocity rounds at much shorter ranges people are still angry. Dodging has a profoundly impactful psychological effect (something I learned in my time as a wrestler) that cannot be discounted.

I've suggested a solution to this here: https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/magburner-improvement-alternative.148849/
Where instead of dodging right and left we allow the use of a skill based maneuvering system, one where both the mag and the enemy are capable of altering the outcome based on merit rather than just the situation. This allows the mag to be the most maneuverable, to mitigate through avoidance, to be unique and relevant.

Now with this boost in usability I wouldn't mind giving my foes actual gun stabilization, all tanks can be used on the move but the mag shall always be best at that aspect, this will encourage more dynamic tank play and give the ability for skilled tankers to more easily decimate farmers (as they should) to protect their infantry.

How would you change the mag to make it more fitting in the current and future game?
( I toyed with the idea of lowering the damage of lock-on's versus a mag while improving dumb fires but I scrapped it)

how about that, I buff everybody to fix imbalance, no ******** and no rage. Hire today Sony.

I would give it the ability to move on the last axis of movement that it does not yet utilized, the Z-axis.

• Holding [Space] makes it go up.
• Holding [CTRL] makes it go down.

Height other than normal cruising results in slower traveling speeds.


It's pretty straightforward, and should allow for easier dodging at longer distances, better navigation over objects or terrain, and better use of cover. It probably won't win you any brawls though, and I don't expect it to have an incredible range of motion or rate of elevation change.

It's definitely something to consider, especially since the Magrider is the only one that could do it anyways.

To be totally honest, I would really like the Maggy to JUST get another 12 degrees of vertical pitch added to its main gun to match the Vanguard and Prowler then add momentum to ALL tank turrets as well as slow down their turn rate. Right now the Magrider is last in almost EVERY stat of the tanks.

In the following categories, it's the worst:

1) Main gun vertical pitch range
2) Main gun damage output
3) Main gun bullet velocity
4) Average forward movement speed (while it can Magburn, it lasts 1 second for a 25 second recharge)
5) Slowest turning speed

In the following categories, it's matched for second/last place:
1) Armor (with the Prowler)
2) Size (with the Vanguard)

In the following categories, it outperforms the other tanks:
1) Shooting while moving (but this is advantage difference is minimal for the skilled tanker)

About the only place it is better than the other two tanks is due to the floating which isn't that great because the momentum added from the hover effect makes snap aiming a lot harder. It doesn't allow the tank to float on water (in the few places where there is water), nor does it make it take any less damage when falling from a great distance.


I would really just like to have the Magrider move back to being the best at some type of combat. Vehicles are not a place where grab bag stats create a good vehicle. If you don't give it something to give it a specific advantage in a given type of combat, it makes it vastly under perform. It could even be just making the Magburn omni-directional and increasing the maximum strafe speed a little higher so that you can strafe around a tank to its rear end to put the hurt on.

P.S. I will note that it doesn't have the WORST AI secondary, the award for which goes to the C85 on the Vanguard.

I could go with this. Riding higher makes you slower but increases turret stablization, while the lower you hover, the faster your movement speed is (forward, reverse, AND strafe) at the cost of a less stable turret. It would mean you could drop further to the ground so you could zip around in closer range fights.

You could argue (to support physics/lore) that hovering higher requires more of the Magrider's engine which means there isn't as much power to allow it to move around in the X or Y directions. However if you drop the Maggy to where it nearly scrapes the ground, it is using almost no engine power to hover, which means it has a lot of power to move in the X and Y directions.

That's actually a GREAT idea.

And why would you change mag? It's fun to drive, it's not underperforming versus prowler/vanguard. It's good as it is.

I think the problems with the Magrider are actually a microcosm of the problems with tanks in general; namely: what are they doing here?

From what I can tell of my own observations of the game, tanks in early PS2 were envisioned as death-machines which infantry would cower from, and that would be destroyed by friendly tanks. Everything from base layouts to windows to vehicle shields made me think PS2 was a game about vehicle fighting, with some infantry action focused around capture points and the few bases vehicles couldn't get involved.

As the game has aged, infantry have (rightfully) complained about getting farmed by tanks as not very fun. So tanks have had a serious kick in the infantry-farming capabilities, to greater or lesser extents.

The Magrider has suffered an additional insult in losing its 'thing' with the bullet velocity increase to the Vanguard and Prowler. Now this was a needed change, because the Magrider was too good at dodging before - but now we have a tank that is the worst performing anti-tank platform in a game where tanks only really exist to blow up other tanks and hunt the occasional sunderer.


So we come down to a question of role-definition. What do tanks actually do in PS2? And once we know that, we can start looking at how each of the different tanks does it.

Once we've adequately answered these questions, I'll feel in a better position to say whether the proposed magburner changes (or anything else) are a good idea.

But right now, tanks are getting pushed outside of bases and thus outside the game - with the possible exception of the Prowler, which still remains a viable anti-infantry platform.

What we need is something for tanks to do. Ideally that doesn't involve just farming infantry.

In the meantime, I've hung up my Magrider for a Skyguard-equipped Lightning - because that one at least has a role.

I agree with you, my own take: https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2...to-eliteeskimos-combined-arms-threads.152037/

What are you on about? The Prowler dodging you while in Anchor Mode? Complaining about Harasser hurting the Mag specifically? As if all the rest of us don't have to deal with VS Harassers... Plus if any MBT is capable of hunting down and out maneuvering a Harasser with no Racer, that's the Mag. I've lost enough Harassers to crazy Mags following me EVERYWHERE at a speed that allowed them to pot shot me every turn, hill and jump to know you can't be serious.

Since when was the Mag considered a Sniper Tank? That's Anchor Mode- Or what it wanted to be.

The Mag can literally stick to surfaces like Spider Man you just have to know how to do it, of course they shouldn't allow it to scale as it used to!!! Again, are you serious?

I won't read further, I'll only say the Mag should have been a bit more like the one the PAC had in BF2142 but that's all- As in a bit smoother strafing. Then again BF2142 simulated Physics a tad bit more accurately so that MBT had problems the Mag doesn't. Fair And Square I guess.

You're just ranting, aren't you?

Once they fix the Prowler(As in decide what they want it to do and what Anchor really should do), we can get to Mags. They are fun and different and very capable MBTs by virtue of their design. You ask for too much right now.

I'll agree a lot of things lack direction and even more things don't know what they do well and what not in PS2. We all suffer from this, I mean all Factions. Mostly the TR where nothing is really special or different. TR could as well have been a 3rd BF4 Faction and they'd be on par with the other 2, for all the good Nanite Tech did us ;P

By the by, the moment Mags fly in any way, shape or form, should be the moment to give Prowlers either quad cannons or the ability to work like BF3's mortars when in Anchor Mode, special targeting Mini Map and all. QUAD mortar even ;P

you clearly don't understand much about the current tank game, and a mag chasing you down in a harasser? what do you have the ******* parking brake on? you neither understood nor wish to understand and as such I put little value in your opinion, I and many others including certain NC fellows can explain to you how the mag is hobbled but I'll not waste time explaining it for the 5th time.

you did not read, your opinion is invalid.

Magrider is the worst of the tanks, even worse then the Lighting,


VS should all use the Lighting instead of the Magrider because:

• Lightning is faster
• Lightning projectiles have lower drop rate then Magrider (more projectile speed)
• You can have speed and smoke
• Even with lower armor it have better survivability (speed and smoke)
• Lightning is much harder to be hit with AV Turret
• costs only 300 resources versus 450 of the Magrider
• If Lighting get destroy you can get a new one quickly and keep pressuring

If you really need to go with the Magrider, at least use the Halberd, because the Saron is weak.
Tank versus tank, an Harasser with Halberd is pretty good too, much better then the Magrider.

Well you seem to claim that Magrider is worst out of all three MBTs.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoT5EmuChzPcdDhyRm5Fb2JLRGFWbXZLajBQX3dJZlE#gid=0

This stats show that Magrider and Prowler have similar level of performance while Vanguard is heavily lagging behind.

I don't really think the problem is just with the Magrider. It's still very deadly. And going 1 on 1 with a Magrider at the range a Vanguard likes to be at is very difficult due to the side to side hoovering and always having it's strong armour towards the opponent.

I would be happy if they would just improve the survivability of the tanks. Maybe double their hp or something? So they can actually take as much hits as an Harasser with glass windows can. Same as the Lightning.

And the Magrider hasn't been considered a sniper tank for a long time. The nerf to the drop made that the case. And that was deserved, because it was the tank that was the hardest to hit and the easiest to hit with.

Explain what the Q1-Q4 is. Are they quartiles? Because if they are, there should only be Q1, Q2, and Q3. Whatever those aren't, they're not very descriptive.

What I would RATHER see is the number of tanks pulled on each faction because I see TONS of 1/2 Prowlers and Vanguards (though not as many Vanny's anymore but still a fair number). The ONLY times I see a 1/2 Magrider is when it has the Basilisk and even then, there is about a 70% chance it will have a gunner.

I love the magrider. It's the beating heart of Vanu, imo, and one of the best/most fun vehicles in any game I've ever played.

It's true role is a ballet dancer of the battlefield - combining agility, speed, sweeping movements, spins etc. That is the strength.

To this end the best (most fun) kit is the max. racer chassis and max. magburner. Any other choice and you just end up with a lumbering, easy target.

KPU is a worthless metric. Get AV kills, AI kills, K/D ratio and average life.

If you cert Magburner you can't cert smoke. No smoke = Striker food

I can't get to your spreadsheet, the link won't work for me.

But I'm assuming you linked the age-old bit of data showing that Vanguards get fewer kills.

This is because Vanguards aren't good versus infantry. But we're not talking about infantry in this thread.

The Magrider was nerfed because it was too good at tank-v-tank. Its tank-v-tank K/D was too high. Get me a tank-v-tank K/D number for the Magrider and we can talk about your data. Until we do, you're going to have to rely on the experience of Magrider drivers like Dax and I.

The Magrider is numerically the worst tank in every single way. It's the slowest, least damaging, biggest (bigger than the Vanguard, yes) and it's tied for the worst armor. The ability to strafe means almost nothing when your enemies' shells are faster than yours. It has a locked front turret, meaning it has to turn its entire hull to aim, and it has the lowest hull traverse speed of any armored vehicle. Even the Vanguard can turn around faster than the Magrider can.

It also has 12 degrees less of vertical aim, meaning it can't shoot down aircraft as well as the others, either.

For a tank focused on "maneuverability", let's look at its maneuverability stats.

Lowest top speed.
Slowest hull rotation.
Worst afterburner in the game.
Worst turret angle.

You said it all... exactly this.

Well, I stopped reading when you compared the Harasser to a Main Battle Tank, especially when half of whatever point you was making is based upon it.