Mouse and keyboard Vs Controller on Ps4 opinions

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Believesps4, Apr 25, 2016.

  1. DrakeFang

    [/quote]I totally get that. Hence it has a sort of innocence about it. What I'm saying is that innocence is gone. And the new way of playing should be embraced. Consoles are becoming cheap computers with their own operating systems. They should be treated as such.

    With VR coming into play. It might come to a point where MnK is inferior and Consoles and PC will both have to evolve. That is.. if VR doesn't fall flat.[/quote]

    True. At the moment though, that uniformity can still be maintained. There will likely be a time when it can't, but we want to preserve it for as long as possible. We place a lot of value on an even playing field.

    As for VR, I been to a couple tech demos and tried them out. At the moment they're interesting, but still unrefined. I wouldn't expect much out of them in the short run, but after they've had a couple years to refine the technology and become acquainted with the strong points of the system, I expect we'll see some very intriguing things coming out of it.
  2. CapEnTrade

    More effective PCs now cost less or just a bit more than consoles. The console user has no excuse.
  3. Demigan

    Holy crap man, what the hell did I step on for this reaction? Are you a fanboy of him or something?

    The "simple google search" shows a reaction test that's easily gamed. The test does not reset on a false start, and false starts are nothing more than attempts to react before something happened. Because the player of this test can beat the system by clicking prematurely and hoping that during the travel of the signal through their arm and muscle the screen turns on you can get scores far lower than humanly possible.

    But even then, let's look at the top contenders: An average of 100ms reaction time over 5 tries, or 0,1 seconds. These people have definitely gamed the system by getting such low scores, but let's assume that these are legit.

    We are talking about a single task here, click the mouse button. If we add the movement before the weapon is facing the opponent and bullet travel time, however minuscule, then we can already assume that any reaction that's below 0,1 seconds is based on a cheat (hey didn't I say the exact same in my previous post? Niiiiiiiiiiice!)

    BTW, just for grabs look here:
    http://physog.co.uk/mod/page/view.php?id=657

    Look at the end, it says:
    "In Olympic standard sprinting, the time between the gun and first kick against the starting block is measured electronically via sensors built into the gun and the blocks. A reaction time less than 0.10 sec is considered a false start. The 0.10-second interval is meant to account for the sum of the time it takes the sound of the starter's pistol to reach the runners' ears (from a speaker behind each block) and the fastest possible time it takes to react to it."

    Yeah, in professional sports they have already accounted for this for years. It's a valid way to identify cheaters!

    But if you take it more scientific, you'll see that there's more to it than that.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4130429/

    Here's a nice article, explains some of the ways you can measure it and how fast you can go (150 MS in this scientific experiment).

    When using EMG's (ElectroMyoGrams) You have to account for the time difference between reading the signal and seeing muscle contraction because... You know... The signal needs time to filter into the muscle before it contracts...

    Don't forget the priming and amount of activity around the user. The more stimuli you have the slower your reaction becomes. This article for instance:
    http://www.hindawi.com/journals/nri/2014/301473/
    Already shows how just a different single color has effect on the reaction times due to the time it takes for the brain to react.

    So no matter how you turn it, in the end any human reaction time faster than 0,1 seconds is indicative of cheating.

    Now I'm sure that professional players like the one in the video would never cheat
    http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/11...unity-shaken-following-revelation-of-cheating
    http://motherboard.vice.com/read/rainbow-six-siege-esports-cheating
    http://telkomgaming.co.za/community-stalwart-sickened-by-cheating-saga/
    *ahem*

    There have been multiple professional players over different games that have been caught on cheating, including players that won tournament money, on PC's and in gaming halls where their every move was watched by hundreds if not thousands of people including organizers of the event.

    Oops.

    Yeah professional gaming isn't any less prone to cheating. You just have to be more subtle about it. Make sure the cheats aren't too obvious, and possibly have some outside help. Considering the money that you can win with Esports (not to mention the fame and bragging rights) it's not exactly a discouragement to cheating, but rather a hefty encouragement to risk it despite all the consequences.

    The player might have an in-set screen, but he's at home isn't he? I have no doubt he's highly skilled, but that only means he can hide an aim-assist more easily. You can cut down on your needed reaction time if you need less time calculating proper speeds and distances to the target, letting the aim assist work out the proper stops and firing sequences.

    This is actually funny, did you consider that the ping is also a factor in the reaction time?



    Pitching a ball is easier due to the reflex pattern being embedded in your body. Muscle memory is a simulation of a reflex pattern, but it's not the same. Especially since the hand-eye coordination happen on vastly different planes. IE, movement in the real world can use normal hand-eye coordination, but movement on a screen does not move the screen.

    Just compare it to scrolling on a screen. Seems simple, right? But the human mind has trouble comprehending what happens, even if you rationally understand what's happening and seemingly have no problem understanding it. Using scrolling tires the mind much faster due to this discrepancy.




    Assumptions galore. No I don't blame it on cheating every time. And you actually display the opposite of critical thinking. I did not just scream "that guy is cheating!", I explained "look, if we can find a spot where the guy reacts faster than 0,1 seconds, we know he's cheating". Considering the video, I have no doubts we can find multiple instances where we can find that, I already pointed out some contenders.
    Also, you trying to degrade me is not exactly "critical thinking". If you were critically thinking you would have found proof to prove me wrong. Unfortunately you actually did try that with your quick google search, but you did not think of the consequences of your own findings.



    Well for once it's actually simple than you describe. Your conscious can focus on one thing at a time, but your subconsious is aware of more things. You don't consciously calculate the muscle movements needed to get your screen centered on an enemy, and you don't necessarily need to consciously see all players on screen to identify who's friend and foe, the status of your character, have an overview of the battle and determine which targets you'll attack, including the muscle movements to aim and fire on the right targets.
    As I mentioned in my apparently insulting post, if you have time to make a plan you can beat the reaction times. After that first kill he's already aware of the other two, he can predict the muscle movement necessary to aim at one, the time it takes to kill him and aim at the next one before he actually gets confirmation of his kill. This could obviously cause problems when he moves away from the target too fast, which is another indication we can look for. That's why you can't use the follow-up kills for determining a cheater. You can use the first stimulus, the appearance of the first player, as a way to determine if he's cheating or not.



    Source? :)

    I've provided some sources. I must say that I find it tough finding any sources that directly deal with naked human reaction times rather than the human reaction times being secondary to medical research or something other. Yes, the mind has a way of doing things with "the least effort", but that does not mean it can do everything.
    Also "the most logical"...? The mind is a logic machine build for outside. It has a penchant for having trouble with the technology we create, however smooth we might seem to interact with it. For instance, the most logical option when a fire breaks out is to use the escape doors specially designed for it. However our mind becomes visceral in these situations and goes for the logical solution that worked before technology: "Use the route you came here to get out", because our brains are build to deal with threats we encounter in front of us and the route behind us proved to be safe, IE no unknonwn and surprising rocks, pitfalls etc to kill us off or impede our escape.



    All nice observations, but that does not mean you can overstep the bounds of human physiology. No amount of muscle memory, breaking down tasks or no-brainer tasks is going to make it possible to act faster than 0,1 seconds. Btw, the "no brainer" moves is only possible with reflexes when the spinal cord does the thinking with pre-programmed reactions, after which the brain receives the messages while the signal of the reflexive action is traveling to the muscles.



    Eh, why would he be using an aim bot? Aim bots are notorious for being easier to spot than an aim assist. Aim bots have those snap-animations that make it even easier to see what's happening. Aim assist only magnetically pulls the crosshair to a target and keeps it on the target (good one's won't even keep it 100% center on the body, just keep it from moving beyond the edges unless you exceed the movement by X when you want to go for another target).



    Meh, nothing convincing so far. In fact my statements still stand tall, you only proved me right :)



    Yes, I explicitly explained that in the post that set you off. I also told everyone that it's during the first time he can react, before he's sending signals because he didn't know he should be sending signals, that's the time you can catch them on a cheat.



    They can predict what's going to happen and send the pattern of signals needed to play the instrument through their arms in correct sequence. Duh. That's not a reaction, you can easily beat the reaction times since theres none needed! All your body needs to do is know the timing to get the right tone. That's completely different than a shooter of course.



    Propriocepsis, yes. The constant knowledge of the bodies status and position based on the last/new inputs of the ganglion cells and specially designed muscle fibers etc. With Parkinsons disease part of the propriocepsis and the muscle patterns is destroyed, hence these people need to look at their legs to see what position they are in when walking. Otherwise they'll stumble and fall. The constant trembling is also a feature caused by this.

    I was capable! Hurrah! Now I hope you learned something today!
  4. CapEnTrade

    He's legit and this is a fact. Deal with it, Demigan. Good players are out there, and if you think he's too impressive, just look at some of the professional Starcraft players. I'm right and no matter how much text wall you come up with seemingly trying to argue why sanctimoniously agreeing wont chance fact.

    Also you're post is horrendously long, if I quoted it I'd be spamming. Keep it concise next time.
  5. Demigan

    Yeah look at that! You can see him prefire down a hall at the average position a player would be in when walking down it, then adjust after jumping in! That's some proper gameplay if you ask me. If you look closely you can even see that his brains picks up on a second target entering his view by they way his aim slightly moves towards the target upon entering, after which he pulls it back on target.
  6. MiguelZaibatsu


    The only thing we learned today is that you can't accept that there are people much better than you and that's why you'll never improve you'll just make up excuses.
  7. Taemien

    I personally think we're past that point. But in reality its going to be up to Sony and Microsoft. Though Valve is trying to shake things up with steam boxes. And Nintendo has already made their decision. I guess the WiiU is available for those who strictly want controllers.


    I'm a be skeptical to be truthful. But I've seen some really cool stuff compared to 10 and 20 years ago (anyone remember the Virtual Boy? lol). But with Vulkan and other APIs being cross platform friendly.. and of course 4k pushing the limits. We're likely to see consoles equal at least low-mid range PCs which is the majority of what people play on. At that point.. merge cross platforms and use all the same input devices.


    I don't think cost has ever been a valid argument. I switched to PC gaming in 1999 because it was cheaper. 15 years of playing on console from 1985 to 2000 was far more expensive then 2001 to 2016(now) has been on the PC. That's not even counting inflation. God damn NES's back then were $199 and $50 per game if they were new.

    Now there's DLCs that give a quarter of the content of expansions for the same price. I'll stick to my steam sales thank you very much.
  8. Demigan

    Eh what? Where did you learn that?
    I just leveled everything that Capntrade said. I've shown that everything I said was completely right.

    All I'm learning is that you are a spiteful little cretin.
  9. CapEnTrade


    Oh, and by the way, Damigan, It's entirely possible to have extreme action and reaction times and apply them accurately......to somthing FAR more impressive than gaming


    I rest my case, get lost.
  10. Demigan

    Again, not reaction time. (BTW you didn't read my big post at all did you?)

    This is a perfect showcase of what I said in my first post. A pitcher throws a ball but has the commands to let go at the right moment coursing through his arms.

    This guy does not react, he just has a good pattern loaded up for shooting two bullets. It's no different than playing an instrument on high speeds. And again, it's a completely different thing from playing a shooter upon reaction time.

    I mean if you really wanted a video with similar proof (which is not indicative of reaction time), all you would have to do is link some kids doing a button masher and say "see! they press the button more than 10 times per second, so they have a reaction time less than 0,1 second!" . Which before you start believing it is not reaction time.

    Again, that's not reaction time. I keep repeating it because you seem to have a penchant for confusing one thing with something else.
  11. MiguelZaibatsu

    you have evidence of him cheating then? post the evidence right now or you're making excuses.You know nothing about BF4 so stop talking about it. Stop pretending you know anything about it CASUAL
  12. CapEnTrade


    How is seeing and shooting 2 people quicker than you think possible in a video game impossible but shooting two targets irl in less time not? He's quicked fired at moving targets like that, targets he didn't know where they'd be a moment before they had not been launched. That is more impressive on all accounts and still quicker than that video game footage. You are so ignorant.

    Case and point, you are devoid of critical thinking skills.
  13. Who Garou

    I play on the PC with keyboard, mouse, and a Logitech Gamepad F310.

    I constantly have the Gamepad F310 in one hand. I use the mouse and keyboard with my free hand.

    The only communication channel on my controller is TeamSpeak.

    I've reconfigured keybinds so that all my communication channels are on the numberpad, along with vehicle management, and dead-stop for flight control. This is the main use that I have for the keyboard.
    I also use the keyboard to get to the map, switch seats in vehicles, respawn, toggle point-of-view in aircraft, and insta-action (really I more hit that by accident honestly) <--- in that order

    The forward-backward/side-to-side is on the left side of my F310, so is switching to my primary or scrolling through my weapons, jump, toggle run, and switched my keybinds so the left stick button covers activating knives, deploying ground vehicles, and toggling point-of-view and zero throttling aircraft.

    The right side of the controller pretty much does what the mouse does.
    Most of the time I have my right hand on my mouse, because it seems like I can turn and aim a little quicker and more accurately with the mouse than I can the F310.
    The reload, teamspeak, grenade, couch, and activate are on the right side of the F310. The right stick is works my melee.

    I'm not the most coordinated player in the world, so the time it takes me to switch from my mouse to my controller or the keyboard is only slowing me up so much. It makes a much bigger difference in what is going on up close and personal between the mouse and the controller. Pretty much everything on the actual keyboard doesn't have to be done in the thick of it. if it does I'd be taking the hit because one hand would be off a device that controls targeting.

    I will say that the option to have more buttons is always a plus.
  14. Demigan



    Because that's not what I'm talking about.

    I'm talking about the moment of a stimulus, the moment you need to react. You are walking down a corridor, you suddenly see someone (or some two), and you need to react. That reaction time is a minimum of 0,1 seconds and up, with 0,1 seconds itself already being suspicious.

    As I've repeated around 7 times around now in what, 4 or 5 posts by now? If you know what you have to do and started the action, you can do almost anything, which includes keeping track of 4 dudes, predicting the time it takes to kill each one, predicting their movement, adjusting your mouse to aim at each one and killing them. However, that first impulse to start everything, that's an insurmountable 0,1 seconds. You go below that? You used something other than your body to produce it, because the human body is incapable of that.



    And... At what time did he fire? How long was the target in the air? I can guarantee you it's more than 0,1 seconds.

    Case in point, you are ignorant when evidence is presented on a silver platter, and you are not even grasping that you are talking about something completely different.
    Some kids mashing a button come to mind.

    Speak of kids mashing buttons, hello MiguelZaibatsu!
    I understand that you have a tough life and need to vent steam by trying to hurt others with words and making yourself sound like a big, BIG boy. But don't worry, inside you'll always be that big boy, really. Now go play with the rest of the kids and you might get some candy.
  15. CapEnTrade



    Both that video gaming pro and the gunslinger Bob have legitimately reacted incredibly quick to situations and come out with impressive results. This is a fact that can not be denied. However you tell me that such feats are physically impossible even though these feats happened and happen and can be proven with undeniable evidence. You are not cynical, you're just stupid.

    Your argument is that the gamer is probably cheating because you think what he's doing is impossible but he is neither cheating and nor is it impossible.
    Discredited.

    HUMANS ARE REACTING FASTER THAN YOU SAY AND THIS. IS. A. FACT.
  16. Taemien


    Casual?

    You're the one playing with a $30 controller. Only thing casual about Demi is he seems to play solo.

    Go to: https://www.planetside2.com/register

    And lets see what your KDR is when you take a continent. IF you can take a continent. Fulfill my challenge (as I made it first) and then I'll get you yours. In fact its already ready lol.
    • Up x 1
  17. CapEnTrade

    I bet you a Ben Franklin that the gamer isn't even reacting at .1 seconds or faster as it were anyways! However Bob the gunslinger has. It's not impossible.
  18. MiguelZaibatsu

    you have a 15 kdr playing infantry? post the video
  19. MiguelZaibatsu

    where are the spawn points at every flag in Lancang Dam in CQ Large? You want to pretend your hardcore? If I place a tank on the first 3 spawns on the right at E on Lancang Dam. Do any of them still spawn there? Where do those spawns get moved to? Answer that CASUAL
  20. Demigan



    Well the reaction of the gamer can be denied if we can find a place where he reacts faster than physiologically possible, IE faster than 0,1 seconds.

    His actions after the reaction can be explained, since he had more than 0,1 seconds to think of the actions he's going to take and chain them together. IE seeing 2 enemy dudes, 0,1 reaction time to start aiming and firing (assuming he wasn't prefiring and going down enclosed spaces which allow him to aim and fire at a random spot before he knows if someone is there), then after that reaction time he can chain as many commands as he wants after each other.
    However, if a 3rd guy comes into view, he needs a minimum of 0,1 second again to incorporate him into his plan, which he'll usually have since he'll be firing at the first two.
    Or let's take the guy with the pistol again. He can decide himself when he starts his action. He predicts the positions he'll need to hit the targets, creates a chain of commands in his head that will allow him to get those angles and the whole cocking+pulling the trigger action, then he starts his action, commands that he already had ready start coursing through his nerves and he executes it flawlessly.

    But if you said "you can do this trick but you have to do it when you hear me clap my hand behind your back", then suddenly he's not as good, he'll have that 0,1 second minimum again before he reacts. He'll execute the action in one go, but the reaction to form the action takes time.



    "these feats" refers to actions and not reactions necessary to perform the action.



    See everything I've repeated half a dozen times.

    No humans are acting faster than they can react. Subtle but incredibly important difference, could have been avoided if you actually read my first reply to you.