MBT vs C4

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by BengalTiger, Jun 20, 2013.

  1. TWolfJaeger


    So what? Driving a Vanguard doesn't mean sitting in one spot all the time. Use your judgement. It's a high profile tank that can find a position, shoot a few rounds, move somewhere else, shoot a few rounds more. That'll automatically increase your survivability a heck of a lot. It's too freakin' huge to sit there in one spot like a static battery and pretend it's not being noticed. That's 99% of the reason why tanks get blatted by C4 to begin with.

    I would love to see the comparison between how many Magriders get fragged by C4 vs Prowlers and Vanguards. VS players get that they need to move; they have to, they have every reason to and their tank is ideal for it. It makes it more difficult for infantry to move around them without getting noticed. TR and NC players constantly forget this, and I see our armor zergs get picked apart all the time, especially around tech plants, way too quickly because of this simple fact.

    There was already a suggestion back in beta to give the main gun to the gunner, and the secondary gun to the driver. The gunner's job would be to hit the objective and everything near it, the driver's job would be to defend the tank. That would have been a simple, if not quite ideal to the point, way of making tanks "require" an investment of two people, and thus legitimize their destructive power while putting an end to the 25-30 MBT zerg spam that keeps happening.

    Tanks should have been the Liberators of the ground, but they weren't. Now the sudden spike in costs is, unfortunately, SOE's way of dealing with the vehicle spam.

    C4 is fine. Even if a light assault or engi gets the drop on me, 60% of the time I either kill the trigger man before he can detonate his sticks, or I hit my shield and get the hell out of the way.
  2. Stew360


    Most important part in the whole tread is in the quote
  3. Aesir


    Fluff-wise PS1 never happened and PS2 is retelling the same story in an alternative dimension. One were recreating stuff out of nanites you harvest from the warpgate in thin air ... but actual modern technology(despite the TR Empire having access to space travel) like stabilized guns, projected cross hairs(PS1 Vehicle sights projected the crosshair were your barrel was aiming at, like a RL reflex) and so on are to advanced.
  4. drhead


    Actually, it appears you've severely misinterpreted the data - the hourly stats are per hour of the item being equipped as an average of all characters. People don't have their C4 out unless they're about to blow stuff up. Moreover, people only have proxy mines out when they are about to throw them down. Furthermore, you don't have to divide it among empires. It is a representation of what an average hour of equip time would look like for an average character. If you're only having it out for 5 seconds at a time, of course you're going to get more recorded kills per hour on that metric. On the other hand, tank cannons can't be unequipped, so they have a lower amount of kills per hour.
    • Up x 1
  5. Aesir


    And it's entirely based on kills or destruction alone C4 does not always kill a Tank or Vehicle, but often deals a massive amount of damage, number of critical assists are missing.

    How does the LA+C4 class combination compare score per hour wise against a MBT that actually does it supposed job and pushes the line?

    Kills should not be standard metric in this game, it does not show how effective you are. If you want to be an effective MBT driver just by Infantry kills alone you need one kill every 20-25 seconds after you pulled the MBT!

    Why? Because that's the average down time of a Infantry player. So during your drive time to the next best combat zone you already should have 4-5 kills or you just make 10 kills on arrival and keep that up for the next 15-20 minutes leaving you with the bare minimum of over 45 kills to justify your existence by purely killing Infantry.

    But this never happens and is a very simple calculation because once you killed an enemy Sundy your MBT pretty much paid it selves ... oh wait no longer since the resource change, you actually have to throw a couple of Infantry kills or a critical assist on another Sundy on top of that to say, "I broke even on wasting 15 minutes of my time" Horay!

    The actual damage a Tank has to do to justify it's current cost is through the roof and only experienced/dedicated Tankers can call themselves effective ...

    So what can a LA do while out of resources for C4? Kill other Infantry ... What can a Tanker do that's out of resources? Well he can play Air or Infantry to pass the time, given that's a valid option, but didn't the devs say they want to see dedicated Players that do one role? Does this not speak entirely against the whole resource system they have running in the first place?

    If we keep the current resource system ... I rather have Tanks for free, AP ammo for free but pay resources for one-shot-3-dead-Infantry HE rounds ...
    • Up x 2
  6. Mostadio

    I'd just like to say that every time I've C4'd a vehicle, the owner of that vehicle deserved to lose it. In every attempt that I have died trying to C4 a vehicle, I deserved to die. Protect your crap instead of simply saying "Is OP, nerf plz."
    • Up x 2
  7. Aesir


    You are partially wrong. Most handheld AV weapons are to weak to punch a hole through a modern up to date MBT. Only heavy AT weapons like Javelins can do that and yes, they would oneshot a Tanks.

    HOWEVER stuff like Javelins are so scarce spread across the big numbers of Infantry that either you only have specialized AT crews use them of which you probably have 1 in every battalion OR they are distributed among your troops so that each platoon has one and really only one launcher/launchunit and maybe 1-2 reserve shots.

    Those Videos of T-72s getting insta popped by Javelins, Milans or other guided AV weapons are true but your average foot soldier does not have access to things like that, even a SMAW/Gustav/RPG is something only 1 guy per squad as, with a second one running around carrying the ammo.

    Also Javelins vs T-72s is a very unfair battle with the Javelin being a lot more generations newer than the T-72. A modern T-90 actually does have systems in effect to reduce the chance of a javelin hit or to not even get locked on in the first place, than there are active counter systems against incoming projectiles that work against incoming Missiles of Javelin power.

    A modern T-90, upgraded Leopard 2A6+ or retrofitted Challys/Abrams for Urban Warfare actually can shrug of insane amounts of those cheap outdated RPGs or even modern versions of RPGs, SMAWs and the likes. The best Infantry can do against modern Tanks that have learned and adapted to go to towns is disable them with a good shot but flat out destroying is so out of the question by those weapons unless you use it on the inside against the ammo rack!
    • Up x 1
  8. Sebastien

    That's not true. Well, in some instances with the RPG29 it is true, but a MBT can level everything from 4 Kilometers away.
    Wire guided missiles such as the Kornet, TOW, or Top Attack missiles have been defeated by Hardkill Systems. Tanks are only really vulnerable when they are set upon from directions that are not the front.
    PS: Firing into the rear of a tank won't turn it into a fireball in RL.
    • Up x 1
  9. Stew360


    I do not misintepret anything

    On 400 + c4 use 47 kill a target and those are deployable at very close range , thats give you a good idea of their efficiency as well as the proximity and landmines ;)

    You misinterpreted thing my good sir ;)

    the whole point will be how much C4 are vanish and what % of the ressources used worth it , and we dont even considere the maxiumum Xp that the device could worth for tis price comparing it to a powerfull MBT who can be a farm of kills and Xp for up to 2 players ;)

    Also this stats board as a serious lack of KDR stats to see whats KDR of C4 users while having C4 in their hand how much Prowler exactly those have kills

    Also these stats you have to understand C4 even the total C4 used Cant be compare to a MBT efficiency

    lets take a look at the Overall stats should we ?

    MBT tanks

    VS = 5.276.601 + 3.278.792 + 309.099 = 8.864.492 Magrider kills
    VA vehicules destroy = 1.791.923 + 396.147 + 290.987 = 2.479.057 vehicules destroy


    TR = 8.504.775 + 3.260.564 + 374198 = 12.139.537 Prowler kills
    TR vehicules destroy = 2.493.101 + 294.685 + 334.385 = 3.122.171 Vehicules destroy


    NC = 3.752.100 + 786.632 + 460.889 = 4.999.621 vanguard kills
    NC vehicules destroy = 1.710.900 + 135.181 + 466.973 = 2.313.054 vehicules kills

    One thing is pretty obvious here Around 46 % of the NC kills are vehicules while only 20 % of the prowler kills are vehicules and around 20 % for the magriders as well It lead to one thing pretty obvious and this is what ive seen in the game and only confirme that NC use mostly MBT agains MBT to stike in the zergs armor , while the VS and TR use their MBT to carelessly FARM INFANTRY players

    Lets back on the very stuff that we need to know , MBT as kill 26.003.650 peoples and on that 7.914.282 kills are vehicules ;)

    In the overall stats 2.077.179 vehicules as been kills by c4 and for all 3 factions a lets say the NC only have 1/3 of that numbers blong to them so the NC have kill aroind 692.993 MBT with C4 lol and they have use 11.429.757 c4 to achive this so 1.142.945.700 ressources points 89 % is vanish and only 11% of all the ressouces players as spend on C4 as pay off but not on vehicules only as a whole lol agains MBT you could probably put the numbers below the 5 % efficiency




    [IMG]






    Here you have it 34.289.273 c4 as been deploy / used on that 2.077.179 vehicules as been destroy and 3.951.364 infantry soldiers or maxs as been kills as well for all 3 factions since C4 are NS device so you still have to split this numbers in 3 to get a aproximative single factions result So about 3.951.364 / 3 (factions) = 1.317.121 Kills by c4 but still its efficiency ratio is about 11 % still SAME result by the end




    [IMG][IMG]





    [IMG]
  10. Stew360


    LOL this is so irrevelant , so is the MBT assist that allow a C4 player to 1 brick a MBT ? rigth ? Or rocket assist thats could help the c4 kills as well as Sunderer that need to be already damage and are primary target for LA c4 lol Still the C4 kills are pretty damned low even with all the LA/ C4 infantry farmers in biolab and so on the C4 overall kills are still pretty low and the MBT kills is alarmly low

    ligthing are the primary vehicules who got kills the most second is probably the sunderer since its a primary objective , and MBT could come at the last since they are harder to get and kills especially while 2 man crew and mooving ;)

    Still 34.289.273 c4 as been deploy / used on that 2.077.179 vehicules as been destroy and 3.951.364 infantry soldiers or maxs as been kills 11 % of efficiency agains target all around and many MBT as been C4 while the drivers as quit is MBT to get a generator or something of that nature i can say that almost 50 % of the C4 vehicules was abandoned vehicules ;)

    Look at the hit count its actually 11 % accuracy lol [IMG]
  11. Phrygen

    [quote="Aesir, post: 1901887, member: 6293"
    I hate to say this every time but look at the PS1 Vanguard how it actually was not boring to zoom around with 60 kmph across terrain were nothing on the ground moved faster than 88 kmph(the Wraith ATV). Actually even the Skyguard buggy or Harassers could only go 80-85 kmph.

    The other thing, PS1 Vanguards actually had stabilized guns ... the motto for every Vanguard driver was to never stop for anything, because the Vanguard took forever to reach those 60kmph but it actually maintained it in terrain.
    [/quote]


    drive a harasser if thats what you want?
  12. Phrygen


    sure you can. Thats why you have 3.76 k/d, because you can go 60/3 easily with HA.....
    • Up x 1
  13. RogueComet

    ROFL you are funny! VERY VERY few people get that many kills per minute. I'd guess less than 1%. Most softies run about 1 kill every 4 or 5 minutes. Are you honestly saying that MBTs can't kill one person every 5 minutes? If you are I call BS on that statistic. I'm not a fantastic tank driver but I know I can achieve a heck of a lot more kills than 20 per hour driving a tank. Don't pad numbers and lie to us.

    Again your numbers are still very wrong. You are assuming people travel instantly from one battle to another. WRONG. Infantry have the same travel time, OR LONGER, than MBTs. Again, you are padding the numbers in a way that is untrue.

    LOL You get funnier and funnier as you go on with your post! Sunderers give 1000+ experience. One soldier gives something around 200 on average for experience. Infantry would have to kill five people just to equal your one Sunderer. Do you even understand math? When I press TAB and look at typical battles, it isn't very often that I see very many people who have over 5 kills when they are playing infantry. Only in the super long battles does it get bigger than that, and guess what... MBTs would have PLENTY of chances to kill infantry in those battles too, so again, your point is moot. Try again.

    Anyone who says that the effectiveness of one infantry is greater than the effectiveness of a freaking TANK is clearly deluded. It is a fact that MBTs are far more effective at pushing territory, at killing infantry, at denying land, than a single infantryman. Get a freaking clue!


    Funny that you say infantry can kill other infantry. SO CAN TANKS but the funny thing is they do it easier and faster with fewer chances of be riddled with bullets. Tank drivers SHOULD run out of resources some times! You people seem to think that PS2 is the greatest tank driving game ever and that you should be able to live in your vehicles. SOE has stated themselves that this is not what they want. The whole resource thing itself is to help push that direction! If you guys want to drive your tanks so baddly, why the hell are you playing PS2 when there are games out there like World of Tanks? *shakes head* Clearly, these "dedicated" MBT drivers don't understand the game we are all playing. Even the bases themselves are designed to preclude the ability to stay inside your tank all of the time. Live a little guys, get out of your shell and actually play the game.
  14. Aesir


    Ehm, again C4 is more used against Sundys than against Tanks, and Sundys earn you no kills or Vehicle destruction's in most cases because often you have to shoot an extra rocket or throw a AV grenade against it to blow it up.

    And with the Blockade Armor changes C4 is mainly a damage spike on a Sundy so other stuff can finish it off. That or someone crazy sets up a AT Mine firework.

    The biggest use of C4 I currently see is blowing up MAXes ... but the stats will show that once some time has passed ...

    Tanks vs. C4 is a two sided issue in which both your currently given stats give no information at all.

    So again, how well does a LA+C4 combo fare score per hour wise against a MBT? What are the number of Critical Vehicle Assists or better what is the damage dealt to Vehicles by C4?

    C4 is not a lone issue against Tanks but general use and the best class/most used class that heavily relays on C4 is the LA class. Sure HAs use it in their Sundy bust gear but the most use of C4 outside that is mainly LA related.

    So you are providing the wrong numbers to make it look like Tanks need more hits with the nerfbats ... I mean since 2 posts have I said that we would need other numbers than the ones you provided. So what is the point of repeating the same numbers over and over again?

    Are saying Tanks are still to strong? Would you like to play PS2 without any Vehicles at all and spawn players only into a giant biolab the size of Indar?

    Is PS2 not a combined arms game were all 4 Arms should be equally important to be present in the field? Should Infantry, Air, Armor and Support not all work together in this game to secure a base capture? Instead of only Infantry+Squadspawn+Spawnbeacons+Sundys to do 95% of what actually is the objective ...

    The game is advertised as a combined arms game if i'm correct, how would combined arms work in a game like PS2? Well, like combined arms works in pretty much every good RTS, or real life. Certain units or roles have limitations, weaknesses but also strengths.

    What is the weakness of mass Infantry? There is no counter in the game that actually counters mass Infantry, but there are absurd number of counters against both Air and Armor, most of which are actually being Infantry based ... while support (Transport/Spawn/Ammo/Repair/etc) sits and watches the fire works from a mostly unrewarded sideline ...

    The basic nature of Tanks>Infantry outside of urban environment is broken. Lost cause bases however are by design Tanks>Infantry, which again is a major design flaw in base layout.

    To not stretch this to far, Tanks should counter Infantry outside of bases, BIGTIMES. Infantry should counter Tanks inside bases BIGTIMES. Air should counter enemy Air BIGTIMES, while AA should only fend off enemy Air. Support should be rewarded very good for hauling/supporting Infantry, Air and Armor across the fields. Squad spawn should not be your "Blow a Sundy without effort"-Card ... Bases should have large sections that are completely inaccessible by Air or Armor unless certain things inside the base get blown up by Infantry(think Vehicle shields+Dome Shields), so Infantry does have their play field.

    Flat out said, a lot of things need to change and hopefully the game will get there over time.
    • Up x 1
  15. Stew360


    WOW man you havent lisen just a bit of whats i just said rigth ?

    If a C4 could have damage a sunderer the oposite is also true , ive seen much more C4 kills on sligthly damage sundy than on MBT to be honest so the sundy who get damaged by rockets others MBT etc.. can be finished up by C4 players as much as the oposite could be true lol but C4 players as to be up close and personal and they take huge risk while puting down 2 c4 so yeah

    Stop been biased toward your own point of view and playstyle and look at the truth rigth front of View

    C4 arent a issue and have never been a issue
  16. Jachim


    Oh please. You don't use all of those and you know it. Quit trying to make yourselves out to be the victim here, Higby and gang have been balancing for Infantry SINCE BETA. Armor play and combined arms has basically been 'phased out' of outfit play on the vast majority of outfits I know of. It's now solely infantry vs infantry with the random pubbies occasionally grabbing a tank to get blown up instantly by C4 ****** or gangs of AV.
    • Up x 2
  17. Jachim

    Also, just because I know someone will bring it up, it takes no skill to C4 someone. It takes no teamwork, and yet we have people arguing tank drivers should be using more teamwork and situational awareness....??? Why doesn't insta-killing tanks with C4 take any teamwork? Where is the fairness in that?
    • Up x 1
  18. Jachim


    fixed your post.

    Stockpiling is absolutely an option, unless all you're doing all day is suicide-ganking tank drivers, in which case your point is invalid because you are terrible.
    • Up x 2
  19. Aesir

    Can you showcase getting a Tank and doing 4-5 kills every minute starting from when your Tank leaves the pad until you have the timer and resources back to pull a new one? Like I said in my post it's a simple model only putting raw output against raw output.

    Travel time for Infantry often is a lot shorter because of Squad spawn, Beacons, forward Sundys and most importantly Medics. Tanks if they are sensible actually pull one base in the rear and if you have no tech you have drive the thing several minutes from your Warpgate to the front. So were am I padding the numbers?

    Tanks probably have longer times to come to combat but stay longer in combat if they are good. Infantry dies quicker but has several tools at their hands to almost instantly get back into action. Hell even hitting squad deploy right after death is faster than using a normal respawn option. And running across a few hundred meters from a bad placed Sundy still is nowhere near as time consuming as driving from one base to the other.

    This was mainly about the difference in resource cost between the 2 Vehicles but ok, I asked for a score per hour stat between a MBT and LA+C4 ... so let's talk about score ... HAs and LAs do also get exp for blowing up Sundys right? The same number to my knowledge, they also get Infantry kills ... they are probably the ones killing more Infantry than MBTs. While also taping into Vehicle kills/assists. To be honest I have no up to date numbers on this but what is the average score per hour of a HA against a MBT? Is the difference really that big? Last time I checked those, which was about 1 month ago it was heavily in favor of Infantry, so clear me up a little on this.

    I have my clue and you are right about 1v1 situations, what you seem to forget is that this is a massive game and stacking is a big topic many seem to forget. How much space does a Tank need to operate effectively, meaning actual space but also the space in form cover used and more importantly, what does he bring to the table to take all that space ...

    Last time I checked you can mount more than 6 AV mana turrets or even more HAs in the same spot that one Tank needs to operate effective ... Infantry does not even have collision! Heavily shifting the large scale battle balance in Infantry's favor. While those 1/2 MBTs heavily have a advantage in small scale battles were there is enough space to maneuver around.

    So once Infantry reaches a critical mass of like 40 Players the number of Tanks you throw at that base become flat out meaning less because most bases truly can facilitate like 6 Tanks before cover becomes scarce with all the Sundys and Infantry moving around.

    I do play Infantry and Air. Maybe not as dedicated as I play Armor but spent my fair share of running around. Yet Infantry is just far more useful than anything else ...

    You seem to not see the bigger picture, a Tank can kill 1 person per round if he hits, which in case of the Vanguard is every 4 seconds. If you are lucky and make a close splash hit on a wounded player you maybe get 2. But very often you actually do not even get a kill for each round fired at Infantry. Often you need 2 or more, meaning you need 4+ seconds per kill, which is a horrible TTK compared to even pistols.

    The redeeming factor was armor/splash and splash is a thing of the past since like 4 months. You either hit or you need 2 rounds, which in a loaded round+reload circle is again 4 seconds. Most Infantry weapons have a sustained TTK of below 1 second. Mounting a Kobalt turns around most of this issues and actually gives Tanks a weapon as good as a Infantry one, but well also with the range limitations of Infantry, while Infantry since AV mana turrets and lock ons or Lancers have pretty much a range advantage over Tanks.

    I do run regularly with a Kobalt with very good effects, but do you have any idea how hard it is to actually get a Kobalt Gunner that stays in that gun? Everybody wants to gun the Enforcer or Walker or Halberd ... nobody wants to gun for the single biggest boost all the weaknesses Armor has. Often leaving me with hotseating the thing, actually I rather have the Kobalt as the driver than the main turret!

    HE/HEAT/AP turrets, compared to most Infantry weapons are flat out weak if you compare the actual TTK in the field. Tanks have very ineffective weapons against Infantry other than the Kobalt ... But yes Tanks do get Infantry kills, but mainly because Tanks are atleast bullet proof to small arms ...

    So are Tanks OP? Well, in small scale battles, yes. Anything bigger than 30 Players nope ... they are not even balanced in those and get one volleyed by AV Infantry zergs if you bring to much of a Tank force and everybody smells the candys that pop out of those juice Tanks ...
  20. Stew360


    sORRY but coming up close and personal with a tanks is a HUGE risk , many C4 no skills will die 9 time out of 10 trying to kill the X and Y tanks with C4

    if you want to talk about NO skills stuff that kill MBT talk about the TR lock on rocket launchers ;)

    Also the TR and VS arent using their MBT agains others MBT they are farming infantry kills like NO END a prowlers instagib infantry with a single shot of a double barel canon ;)



    So much skills and situational awareness is required to farm kills like no end like this lollllllll

    man you aint real