MBT Abilities

Discussion in 'Test Server: Discussion' started by Smoo, Apr 15, 2018.

  1. Smoo

    I disagree on the "similar situations" bit. I use magburner quite a lot- on the road, because mags are slow. (Slower than Prowlers and Vanguards, iirc? Has this changed?)

    Mainly, 2/3 MBTs have abilities that are useful in combat, to kill or escape. The Magrider does not.

    Let us examine tank abilities.

    Prowler: Lockdown was very situational, but extremely useful (if you didn't get C4ed. You probably got C4ed.). A few Prowlers locked down behind some rocks, with a Repair Sundy and some engineers patching them up? That's powerful. Then again, a Prowler that locks down in a place where people can shoot it, without repair backup, is at a massive disadvantage.

    Barrage seems interesting. Have tanks rush, and pewpew for 15 seconds, then fall back for repairs and let the cooldown tick. With no downside?

    Vanguard: Overshield is very useful in typical tank situations as well. Rush in and pew....pew. When you take a few hits, shield up and back up to safety.

    Both of these abilities mean that they are REALLY good at either dealing or soaking damage. Both tanks, I've seen have minimal trouble with AV turrets.

    Magrider: SUPER situational. You ever look up the kill stats before Oracle went down? Suicide was (and probably still is) a TOP KILLER of Magriders. Sure, it gets you INTO combat pretty fast. Right into the range where a Prowler has better DPS, and a Vanguard has 8 seconds of super-durability. Or, you can SAVE that afterburner charge, and if the fight goes badly... you can present your rear to the enemy tank(s) and prepare to burn out. And die, because presenting rear armor to tanks is a TERRIBLE idea.

    So the Mag has the health of a Prowler, without the DPS. The slowest speed, without the armor of a Vanguard.

    "But strafing" you say? CSHD and tank shell muzzle velocity are for to laugh.

    "But climbing" you say? Yeah, that's not worth it either. There are VERY few hills that can be scaled by a Mag and not by any other MBT, and MOST HILLS are just JAGGED ROCKS OF DOOM EVERYWHERE. And even if you DO make it up, you still get C4 from drifter jets, AV ESFs, and, well, tanks CAN aim up.
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  2. Smoo

    That said, I don't think building lockdown into Prowlers is a bad idea. Build afterburners into Magriders too! Both are really situational.

    AND give Magriders some sort of ability that actually helps them DO or TAKE damage.

    (I don't get why TR whines that missing once with a Prowler halves their damage if they can hit with the second. Missing once with the other tanks does NO damage at all...)
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  3. LordKrelas

    And Shield isn't situational?

    Yes, the Magburn is situational heavily.
    At this point, maybe a rebuild of all three is needed.

    - Edit:
    For a more useful post from me, here's a few concepts from another post of mine

    VS: Adaptive Shielding
    Generates a Barrier around the Magrider, that upon taking Damage, reduces damage of that type by 10% per hit, to a max of 75% of Reduction: Whatever damage type was used first, will be the type affected.
    While Active, the Magrider's forward & Reverse speed is reduced by 15% (Strafe is unaffected)
    (Very tactical, let alone on such an agile vehicle)

    NC: Fortification
    Generates a Barrier around the Vanguard, that covers allied Infantry with an Overshield within 15 meters, and provides 15% damage reduction to Allied vehicles including the Vanguard (at 5% instead) within said area, stacks up to 50% with other activated Vanguards.
    Triggering Vanguard Speed is reduced by 45% while the Barrier is active.
    * Overshield creation is once per minute

    TR: Salvo-Artillery
    The Prowler deploys, reload is decreased by 25%, shell velocity increased by 25%,
    Fired Shells upon reaching 10 meters of a hostile target, explodes into a cluster of 6 micro-munitions each dealing 2\6th of the original shell's damage as direct damage & 1/6th as splash damage for 1.5 meters.
    (Yes, that is a brutal weapon.)
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  4. Smoo

    Interesting... The TR one sounds a lot like "ok guys, the point room with 20 people in it is clear now," though. The NC one... stacks really a lot. The VS one... sounds like immunity to ESF rockets, or tank shells. So, OP as-is, but maybe the base notions are workable.

    How about this instead: the NC one ROOTS the tank, does not stack, and on movement, breaks and starts the cooldown? So a column of tanks would take turns. It might need a duration maximum as well. Damage reduction % is debatable.

    Letting the TR pitch up and be artillery might be interesting. Not many fights without a ceiling or skyshield, though. Letting the TR clear a room is pretty OP. I can't really think of a way to make those interesting enough to use without making them OP, though.

    I've been playing Overwatch a bit, though. How about an alternative to Barrage? A recharging ability that loads in an extra clip every 30 seconds. Use the OW charge mechanic (Junkrat, mostly). So with 2 charges, you could hit X and reload in 1 second. Once per normal reload. So you could fire, X fire again after short reload, normal reload, fire, X fire again after short reload, at a maximum rank. (2 ranks only, 500 and 1000 probably).

    In that vein, Magrider could get a Phase Cloak. Magrider goes intangible to shots and invisible to enemies (and cannot fire for the duration) and can move otherwise normally. That's... about it. It will probably phase back in behind you, though. I'd rotate, if I was you, so it's not THAT overpowered...? I dunno, rough idea.

    NOT intangible to walls, though. Not quite sure how collisions should be handled, but balance and engine limitations are probably most important than. So no phasing through base walls, it should probably still collide with big vehicles so the physics doesn't spaz out....

    Or... Zarya. Magrider generates a shield that absorbs damage. Some of that damage is added to outgoing shots. Short duration, use it or lose is (you could drive over mines with it, but can't store up the energy for later.)
  5. LordKrelas

    Yeah, well TR is Artillery.
    I had some trouble, figuring what would work since the tank itself is lethal.

    By the VS Trick, I mean damage from a Rocket, makes it stack against rockets, Shells to Shells.
    So in order to get any of that, you have to be struck a bit, which reduces the damage from the next hit.
    But in order to get the full bonus, you'd likely need repairs or would've died.

    NC's, is designed around allies, rather than the Tank.

    If NC's tank is stuck into the ground, just to gain damage reduction, it would only be usable if the tank can hold that position.
    Leaving it a worse state than the present shield, since the tank would be rendered incapable of moving, making it take more hits, and be unable to retreat.

    Yeah that's the problem I had.
    I figured making TR's shot basically be literal artillery at a slower pace, would give them that Dakka feeling, without making them too mobile (their base DPS is savage already), or faster which would be either **** or too good.
    An extra clip would be interesting, but it suffers the issue of either being negative-less while good, or piss-poor.

    Hell to the No.
    A MBT with invulnerability & cloaking...
    That would allow a floating tank the ability to escape any fight easily, and pick their battles hard-core.
    You'd be able to pick your fight, deal your damage & leave regardless of the enemy's firepower..
    Or just glide in cloaked, without any of the risks of any other cloak: Which is being unarmed, and vulnerable.
    Being immune to damage just makes it way worse than regular cloaking on an MBT.
    Add in the fact that not only would a cloaked MBT be hard to face at night, but also for aircraft, that's a MBT that can become invulnerable for real, and hard to track from the sky.

    The problem with absorbing damage into extra power, is the Magrider not having the longest reload, but the fastest since CAI.
    You'd be taking less damage, and putting out more damage, putting you on top even better than the Present Vanguard shield could hope for in 1v1's.

    My goal was to provide tactical capabilities, that were slightly mirrored across
    VS got a Defensive ability that allowed them to adapt to the enemy AV types over time, meaning tactics needed.
    NC, got a Defensive-Support ability that aided allies more than the tank itself (promoting team work for best results).
    TR, was the only one I just went for straight offensive-support, to give them that Dakka feeling.

    After all, the core of the Prowler is Offense heavy. Supported, the tank is brutal.
    Get in range, and we could make the tank more fragile to directed fire - like from lighting tanks.

    The Core of the Vanguard, was endurance.
    But since most abilities akin to Overshields or the like, are either brutally effective in 1v1's, or absolute ****..
    I went for a focus on Allies over the tank itself.

    And the Magrider's core seems to be agility - I figured, VS has enough adaptive tricks however, that rather than Speed which is either hit or miss, to something more direct.
  6. Smoo

    TR is fire rate and big clips, they have nothing on artillery. For the VS thing, the game is split into damage types, I believe? Maybe. Seems like it would be either really useful or completely useless, and hard to make it be somewhere in between.
    That's why you bring friends. If you're alone, you bring something else, or don't fire it up.
    Oh, I know. How about an ability that splits the shot even MORE? 4 shots at 50% power each, 8 shots at 25% each...

    Exact same numbers overall, way more shot walking.
    If they use it to run, just look at your radar and go find them. It's not like it lasts long. It should definitely not last long.

    If they use it to attack, put your back to a wall and go third person to see them a little sooner.

    It's STILL the slowest tank with the least overall damage. It's SUPPOSED to have mobility. Not speed, not damage, not armor. Mobility. So... why does it not REALLY have mobility?
    You ever FIGHT a Zarya? Bubble goes up, you switch targets for a couple seconds.
    Mag device would be a couple seconds of bonus damage, that fades pretty quick. Say, 8-10 seconds of absorption, with 10% bonus damage per shot, maximum bonus damage of what the shield soaked up, lasting 10 seconds after the absorption effect ends.
    If the Magrider got built-in adaptive armor? That was always on? Hmm. The "use" key resets it, so the first type it sees, it starts resisting? Then just go repair once in a while, until you have the tankiest tank? That COULD actually work. Seems potentially OP.

    Not sure about the NC one, do you mean permanent, or timers, or what?

    The TR AOE-of-doom ability sounds straight up OP against multiple small targets, though. I guess it self-limits, once a tank driver grief-locks themselves firing into an infantry fight, though. Lasher fire, for TR, for tanks? Eesh.

    It's still literally the TR firing around corners, with AOE and a fire rate bonus.
  7. LordKrelas

    Prowler is a literal Artillery tank, not TR, the Tank.

    Welcome to the general issue plaguing most abilities: Incredibly potent or useless as sin.
    The goal was if fighting a single AV source, to become very resistant to it, making tactical use of the Magrider, and tactical plans against the magrider shine.

    So basically NC's tank gets the ability to be rooted, reliant on friends, no retreat, and can't even rotate the thing, or loses the ability into cooldown: straight downgrade hard of the present NC shield.
    While you provide literal invulnerability or a superior shield to a Highly mobile VS tank....

    I thought about increasing clip size, but I figured easily too problematic.
    Hence the Proximity-fuse nature that makes the shell actually do something special
    As otherwise, you just make spray & pray easier, rather than make Accurate fire required for results.

    You do not need long, to escape a battle, dodge an aircraft, run over infantry, or close the gap..
    Not to mention, in order to prevent the SEVERE advantage of both invulnerability & cloaking, the ability would need to be useless.
    After all, even the original Vanguard shield that boosted health could be overwhelmed by Prowlers, and it lasted seconds.
    People screamed at that --- and you want to give a better version & cloak the ****** at the same time, for VS?

    Invulnerability & cloaking is not agility, and it ain't speed either.
    The grand issue with straight speed, is its either bloody godly or crap.

    Yes yes, let me switch targets from the Magrider to anything else, ensuring it basically either is left alive to do the original damage & armor, (it ain't a push-over), or attack it, let alone if without the bloody choice, making it Able to take more damage & kill faster...
    When the hell do you have the option when being engaged, to not open fire on something with your weapons when it is killing you?

    ....Every ability of mine was focused on toggle.
    That's why there was limits on the stacking, the concept of needing repairs, and some costs to them.
    NC's needs a lot of work, but the cost I thought was the limited use by itself (So not solo-king)

    Since it's one type of AV source, yes, you could do that -- but it does have a Cap on the max protection.
    That means your tank is slower while keeping that field active, but much more durable to that AV.
    This means you could tactically prepare your tanks ahead of time, but would need a reset if the primary AV hit type changed.
    Tactics. Both sides.

    Anything that leaves the Radius of the Vanguard, loses the resistances about, what in a second?
    The overshield is applied every minute, so if they got into range after that tick, they don't get it.
    This means your bubble of influence is not as easily abused -- and a window that the overshields are entirely gone.
    So you keep your tanks near allies, and have them basically act like NC's Shield Wall of maxes.
    Without allies, the Shield is severely less useful - which makes it a Group thing, not a solo-thing.

    If the spread doesn't miss, and the operator manages to land those shells to trigger the effect: target was dead anyway.
    Not to mention, to get that kind of shell to arc the projectiles in, would need a target above that, to trigger it above the area.
    At the time needed to fire these shots, and the nature of it: Would be quite hard.
    Not to mention, Cover, and the nature of the trigger mechanism, makes it barely compete with HESH or HEAT.
    As it would trigger either too late, or trigger where it splats harmless against the wall around the window rather than into.
    Not to mention, how the nature of the shell would make it hard to use at closer ranges.

    (Fire-rate is quick , but at 2 shots only, with a longer reload, it really is artillery shots)
    Close in on the stationary tank, watch it burn.

  8. LtBomber1

    Just a thought:
    Just remove Magburner.
    A) Instead, make a passive cert line that boosts the Magiders manourvability, similar to rival chassis.
    B) Give the Magrider the ability to change the hight of its hover on the fly, like ducking and levitation.
    C) Cloak?

    Alternatively, make the Magburner have some utility attached to it, like:
    - Ram: Vehicles rammed by a Magburning Magrider take significant damage
    - Warp bubble: While speeding, Magrider takes far less damage,
    - Charing rapairs: Free FireSup is activated on speeding
    - Omnidirectional: Magburn turns into a time based ability and boosts movement for 5sec, 30s cooldown.

    ... or a combination of above
  9. Smoo

    Prowler is the EXACT OPPOSITE of an artillery tank. Lockdown makes the projectile go FASTER, and it cannot be ballistically fired.

    I was actually thinking of how the NC actually tend to fight. They pull out from cover, shoot things, and use their shield to get back into safety, to repair and repeat. It's a good tactic. Letting one tank buff others would be TEAMPLAY, and encourage them to rush.

    The VS thing is a minor relocation ability. It baffles me how the VS get "advantages" that really aren't. Like "you get no bullet drop!" ... Except for weapons that bullet drop actually matters, THOSE still have bullet drop. The only guns that "benefit" from bullet no-drop, are weapons that operate at ranges where bullet drop isn't even an issue.

    Same with VS tanks. Stats sacrificed to "mobility." Except that the tank is really big, really slow, and there are very few places that the "mobility" makes ANY difference. There isn't even water anymore.

    Now, if a VS tank had a phase cloak? Every 45 seconds, they could vanish, and you couldn't finish killing them. Will they decloak behind you? Will they decloak while they're moving behind a hill to repair? Will they fake you out by staying still?

    That's about it. They're not firing. They still collide with stuff, I wouldn't trust the physics engine to move two things into the same area and not spaz out.

    And the "Zarya" shield would only absorb a certain amount of damage before it breaks. Blizzard is REALLY experienced at tuning things, you know. This is a proven working mechanic. So if it absorbed 2000 damage, you might get a 10% or 20% damage bonus for what, 4 shots? On the weakest tank gun?

    The resist shield thing is a bad idea, though. It is COMPLETELY useless without serious repairs, and you're probably dead anyways.
  10. Smoo

    I've always thought that Magburner would be pretty useful if it boosted in the direction of movement, rather than solely forward.
  11. LordKrelas

    Artillery tank: The Prowler Locks down, and unloads a barrage.. It isn't a tank that rolls up into the enemy's face.
    It deploys at range, and unloads the highest DPS onto targets.
    That's why I call it artillery.

    (NC line)
    Yeah that was kinda the point of it being focused on the allies, and not the tank itself.
    Encourages & supports pushing as much as defending.

    (VS line)
    A minor relocation that provides uncounterable invulnerability & cloaking of an Entire MBT.
    Not even NC's original shield, which lasted seconds, granted invulnerability, and was hammered into oblivion.
    But VS gets a better one, and it cloaks?
    It would either be the ultimate Escape button since nothing can kill the tank, or be useless.
    IE what people have issues with Magburn for... Expect this one provides Invulnerability to ensure escape

    It is not minor, to be impossible kill, and have a cloaking system on a MBT, that also is immortal while using it.

    They aren't firing: if they were, that would be the best possible ability in the entire game.
    But they are able to survive any attack, and retreat at will.
    5% hull? Oh I'll repair my MBT, by becoming invulnerable.
    Heaven forbid if Ramming still works.

    (VS line #2)
    Yeah that's Blizzard, and it's not a game where there can be 30 MBT's in one area, or 3 of them hunting infantry.
    The ability to nullify damage, and increase your own firepower for it, is what the Vanguard's "I-Win" button is, but with extra damage.
    You survive more than you should, and deal more damage than you should.
    This would put the Magrider on top of the 1v1 Chain, and make it a nightmare to deal with en-masse let alone with infantry.

    What do you think NC is presently dealing with? The resist shield.
    Why do you think my numbers went high with the max damage resistances? As it's either **** or godly.
    At present, NC's ability put the longest repair-time tank in a state of needing repairs constantly.

    VS does not need the ability to never lose their tank, and have unavoidable tank pushes (invulnerability & cloaking), let alone be able at night to use cloaked MBT's, that if didn't lose their ramming ability could deal free damage & instantly kill infantry without taking a scratch.
    Let alone if NC's entire ability is to be fused to the ground, with half their firing arc, for their same damage resistance shield...
    While VS can become immortal -- or VS can use a Better version of NC's shield, that adds firepower.

    You turned NC's ability into a forced-turret with a damage-resistance... which is suicide.
    While VS either gets the best possible 1v1 Ability (Damage & resistance boosters), or a uncounterable Escape-button.
  12. Bort-Mattherson

    To get back to the issue of the Magburner's utility, and with the disclaimer that I do not play VS:

    I've seen it be useful in some circumstances, they can be common.

    1) You're engaging with enemy armor/vehicles and you get the advantage -> zoomies in and finish the job while they try to cover + repair/escape.
    2) You get jumped from the side - burn into friendly lines and let your mates help you out.

    Granted, if you get jumped from the back, you get a Vulcan Harasser up your bum or you foolishly pursue into enemy lines, you're gonna have a bad time. But that doesn't mean that burner isn't a useful tool. Add that you can access places that other tanks cannot reach (and can move around Amerish with much more ease than the traditional MBT's) and you've got a legit contender.

    Regarding the suicide prone nature of Maggies: yeah bro, fast stuff flips easy in Auraxis. See ECUS logo. Blame physics. But at the end of the day: drive slower.

    Also, strafing behind cover like the trees on upper Indar, Amerish or the pods on Hossin is annoying as balls.
  13. Coliax

    Tr max have lockdown -> tr mbt have lockdown
    Nc max have shield -> nc mbt have shield
    So why dont give the magrider a ZOE (or what it's called) engine that increase the Speed and moveability of the magrider but also increase the taken dmg. So magriders could be very fast and flank prowlers/vanguards, bevor they can even turn ther backside
    (maybe increase dmg out and Input so that magriders take more dmg but do more dmg as well)

    Another Thing would be a Transport cloak that has a cooldown (means you hit F, you are cloaked for like 10 sec (maybe less) and after the 10 sec or after you shoot, you cant get back into cloak for like 30 sec (maybe more)
  14. asmodraxus

    How often is ZOE/Suicide mode used on VS Max units again Coliax? There is a very good reason why its not used at all and the same reasons also applies to the VS Magrider, not unless the increase to damage dealt is actually worth it (100% increase for all weapons maybe?).

    Best thing would be to increase the burn length, decrease the recharge time (by up to 15 seconds) and possibly look at the omni directional version that keeps getting suggested.
  15. Problem Officer

    I'd give Magrider a completely artillery ability. Add a large amount of blast radius to each cannon, drastically lower velocity and offset the turret's pitch maybe 45 degrees up.
    Plasma Canon of Hectors in Earth Defense Force, pretty much that.
    Bigass, slowass shot that hurts bad but is easily seen and dodged by targets paying attention.
    Fits with the ongoing theme of VS special ammos being wider+slower shots.
  16. Nobalification

    Thank god that you aren´t in development team. Even Artillery theme is Prowler trait. You can climb unclimable.
    • Up x 1
  17. Problem Officer

    Shrug, nothing anywhere says that Prowler is an "artillery tank" and its Anchor mode isn't anything resembling artillery.
    Prowler's effective Live traits are rate of fire and velocity. You claim that the opposite of what Prowler has now would steal from it?
  18. LordKrelas

    You want to put an Artillery ability, a direct long-range indirect fire boost turning their fixed-mounted Cannon into a massive AOE cannon...
    On something that can strafe, and clime most terrain easily, while at a distance, that strafing allows evasive shielding against enemy AV.
    Either this would be the most PITA to use, given the cannon is front mounted...
    Or incredibly BS, as a Magrider unloads a massive AOE Blast massacring TR & NC Infantry from a severe range advantage.
    Add in a couple dozen Magriders, and that's basically endless artillery into every Lattice base, PMB, and open field is just full of artillery shells..

    It's a double barreled tank, that deploys into the ground, enhancing the fire systems..
    As well, at least when the Prowler locks down, it isn't also a tank that if it could fire from long range would be the hardest to hit due to strafing capability...
    So giving VS, a long range AOE Blast that can go over walls, and is perfect for long-range shots, is insanity.
    And if it's close or medium range, that basically just puts VS in a close-range Infantry splatter...
    if they could even angle their gun properly for that..
  19. Nobalification

    By logic man.