MAXes suck - buff them!

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by UberNoob1337101, Aug 9, 2020.

  1. Campagne

    Please stop strawmanning me. I said C4 was the only effective counter, not the only one, I never said anything about heavy populations, and I never said they would always be revived and repaired. You have also just pretended not to see my entire argument.

    I "refuse" to use specialized equipment with little to no benefit outside of the main encounters the equipment is intended for, and equipment which forces me to play in ways which I do not want. I'm not going to play HA 100% of the time in case I find a MAX, and when I do I'm not going to bring an AV grenade when trying to fight infantry because I'll be worse off, and I won't always have a Decimator or practical dumbfire (AA, NS lock-on-only's, Phoenix) just in case I might find a MAX while I attack other targets, I won't bring C4 on the off chance that I'll encounter a MAX when every other item in the slot is more likely to have a beneficial impact on my gameplay, and I'm not going to bring tank mines when fighting infantry indoors. (And just hope they go unnoticed until they detonate in a lethal range of a MAX and are able to actually kill).

    Given this, the best I might hope for is having a Decimator with its ~6.7s--~12.9s TTK against a MAX, assuming time to aim with instant travel times and perfect accuracy against a stock and OA MAX respectively. Against the target with a ~0.5s TTK on me and self-heal ability, not to mention functional legs to retreat, dodge, or chase me while I reloaded.

    C4 requires contact range, unless vertical distance is present. And no, I don't consider latency anomalies to be a reliable method of delivering C4 from a distance. All MAX weapons perform better at shorter ranges.

    But sure, MAXes are totally weak and pathetic units that struggle to survive in a world where everything is geared and targeted towards them.

    [First page of YT search, about a year old.]
  2. UberNoob1337101

    Gotcha guys, le support MAX rework ideas are coming soonTM.

    True, but...

    1. They have the lowest amount of kills on every server, usually by a very wide margin. I've seen single-digit kills for MAXes on Fisu during off-prime and prime-time on both Europe and Americas.

    2. Their K/D varies massively with faction and servers. Lowest I've found is 1.4 K/D for Emerald TR MAXes (technically the lowest I've found was 1 K/D, some MAX from Soltech with 1 kill and 1 death), which is suprassed by Soltech and Connery standard infantrymen. Highest I've found was 5.6 K/D on Soltech, and 4 K/D on Emerald NC.

    Very inconsistent overall. Going between average infantry stats and doing quite well.

    3. Very low uniques, but not exceptionally high KPU (kills per unique). Usually for some broken weapons uniques are average or above, but their KPU is incredibly high (indicating that on average, each weapon/vehicle would get tons of kills). For MAXes being so superior to normal infantry, they don't score too well on KPU. Almost all MAX weapons get beat by LMGs in terms of their kills per unique, with only Scattercannons occasionally pulling ahead at times.

    4. Low KPH. As expected, spammy explosives and Heavy's LMGs do way more killing than MAXes, but they don't perform nearly as well as I thought they would. The highest KPH was a massive spike for Scattercannons, ~150 KPH. Put in context, a single godly Heavy Assault/CQC sniper will out-compete most every MAX user in terms of kills per hour. Left hands kill less for some reason too. If you even it out and summarise, the highest collective AI MAX KPU is ~600KPH.

    Compare it to the LMGs, which on the regular score over 1000 KPH, with as high as 1200KPH (LMG kill every 3 seconds, for context). MAXes just don't kill as much.

    5. The highest uniques are on starter MAX weapons. No solid proof, but shows that most players who pull MAXes nowadays don't put certs into them, and they are most likely new players pulling MAXes. Almost all vets play something else.

    I used the Voidwell to check the individual weapon stats, by the way.

    Yes and no. If you survive long enough to pay it back or switch to something else, it doesn't matter, but MAXes are inherently very inefficient in terms of nanites.

    I'll address MAX tankiness real quick.

    MAXes have 2000HP, 80% resistance to small arms, gives effectively 10000HP versus small arms, which isn't that much. An average infantry weapon has 5000 damage in magazine, LMGs have anywhere between 7000 to 20000 damage in mag. MAXes can, effectively, be killed in two mags by a single infantryman. That takes about 10 seconds for most average infantry weapons, shorter for LMGs and high DPS weapons, even shorter if headshots are counted in.

    Yes, 10000HP is a lot of health, but factor in this:

    - MAXes are a big target
    - MAXes are a slow target
    - MAX AI weapons have very poor accuracy, so fighting back is going to be RNG-based if you're over 10m away.
    - You get killed in 10 seconds tops. 5-10 seconds versus rockets. 2 seconds versus C4. An out-of position MAX is a dead MAX.

    Infantrymen can often position themselves quite quickly to avoid enemy fire, for MAXes it's usually too little too late. You can dodge some weapon fire as a MAX, but you'll slowly but surely be grinded down. The biggest threats to MAXes are, without doubt :

    1. Heavies. Worse than C4, since C4 is usually avoidable, but you'll inevitably run into Heavies that 2-shot you. Even worse are Decimator + AV nade heavies that basically kill you within 1 second of the combo. I'd kill them faster than that if my AI MAX arms could actually hit them consistently. They'll just pop in, deal tons of damage, and run right back behind cover. They're faster than you and it's impossible to chase them. In a MAX vs Heavy fight, Heavies control the engagement and deal much more DPS. Heavies only die to MAXes if they get out-played or aren't putting in effort to beat them.

    2. C4. If you don't run Ordnance Armor, this is threat number one. You constantly have to watch out if you aren't backed up by teammates. As a C4 fairy myself, this isn't too big of a deal, 1-hit C4s have ended many a MAX. Even if you survive a direct hit, 10-15% HP means you die to blanket small arms fire, even 50% HP as a MAX is uncomfortable.

    3. Small arms fire. Not particularly damaging, but constant. You die slowly but surely to it unless you have Engineers to back you up.

    I really don't see the evidence for "MAXes are free killstreaks" mentality. You need both direct and indirect support, spot and avoid threats, and with all that, perform worse than an ordinary Heavy. Yes, really, you'll kill less than them too.
    Might as well go and tell your fellow Engineer to switch to any other infantry class along with him, at least you don't require each other to function.

    Didn't mean to pick on Heavies, but as a closest comparison of a tanky-DPS dealer, Heavies out-perform them really hard at anti-infantry, at least with the given stats on average.
    As an avid C4 enthusiast with over 10K kills, I feel sad that C4 is seen as situational. I use it against even basic infantry to breach rooms, then pick off the stragglers with my primary, strap 4 bricks on my Flash as an Engineer then run straight into Sunderers, MBTs, whatever looks juicy. Inefficient, but infinitely fun.

    This is the one which is subjective, some ppl like me will find Decimators, AV nades, and C4 as universally useful and great, others will prefer medkits, lock-ons and other bits.

    MAXes don't require nearly as much specialization to take down. Literally the only requirement is not to be a sniper or stalker infiltrator, then either burst them down or slowly grind them with weapons fire while not fighting them at point blank range. If they're backed up by engineers, kill them first then repeat step 1.
  3. UberNoob1337101

    Just gonna point out, all kills in the video are people with 1 K/D and lower, low BRs, mostly not using rocket launchers and almost always missing with said launchers. Could've been seal-clubbed by any other class and almost all vets. Likewise, the MAX could've been stomped by enemies within the first minute if the Heavies were better.
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  4. Liewec123

    then enjoy getting $hit on by maxes.
    you deserve to get $hit on by maxes,
    and you don't deserve to have a voice in this discussion because you've never even tried to counter them,
    you just get wrecked and whine about how OP they are.

    oh and nice video, so convincing.
    i guess EM6 (a middle of the road, unremarkable LMG) is OP too
    because i can link one of the several videos of people getting killstreaks with it...
    tadaa! EM6 is suddenly OP!

    and learn the meaning of a strawman,
    what i gave you was a perfect analogy,
    you want to be able to kill a pricey exotic unit with your free infantry,
    without bringing any of the gear that would actually let you do it.
  5. MonnyMoony

    Maxes are too squishy on their own, but can be far too powerful when backed up by one or more engie

    Perhaps this would be a solution:

    Double their health pool, but slow down their engineer repair time by a factor of 4.
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  6. Campagne

    I'm sure it's obvious but the quoted sections parallel the sections in the quoted post(s), they're not random.

    What, you don't think I have any ideas? :p Here's my favourite: MAX Medic
    • Lower nanite cost to zero
    • Buff base damage resistance to explosives and explosive splash
    • Nerf base damage resistance to small arms fire
    • Lower headshot multiplier
    • Nerf all AI weapons and AV against infantry to current NC MAX levels
    • Restrict MAXes to one weapon in the left hand
    • Revive-only medical tool in right hand
    • Passive, relatively large AoE non-stacking heal effect
    • (Possibly) Increase maximum shields by 50 when within range of AoE
    Boom, MAXes are no longer free killstreaks that soak massive amounts of damage while killing in less than a second, and instead are relatively difficult to kill support units. Less efficient than a medic directly but more sustainable and better suited to large-scale fights.

    Now they're fun to play with and against and are free.

    Yes, that's fair, lower numbers skew the data considerably. However, we do already know MAXes tend to only be used in the right situations due to their range issues. Of course though, we do see them performing better or the best compared to the remaining classes across the board. They are powerful and it shows.

    There's a lot more LMGs and bombs aand all that crap all out there at once than there are MAXes, so it would stand to reason that LMGs & co. would kill more. They might also tend to fear death less and are a tad faster, so they're more likely to get directly into combat without holding back or fleeing at half health like the average MAX might.

    Well, I don't think that's really fair to say, or at least it's not exclusive to MAXes. Every default weapon sees considerably more use than everything else anyways. I'd hazard to guess that's more of a symptom of our poor player retention more than anything.

    Yeah, they're fairly inefficient with this meaningless recourse, but I accredit that to their revivalbility. Nothing else with a nanite cost is can be used again after it's used/dies without a cost. It's fair for them to cost more upfront.

    This is without considering accuracy and damage degradation however, and does not consider attacker mortality. It doesn't take the MAX ten seconds to kill a heavy firing at him with an LMG. Sure they're big, but they're not that big, and tend to have "holes" in their profile, like the VS' MAX's neck and head not being as flush with the body. Shooting at the face, especially while he's fighting and trying not to die, will leave a lot of missed shots.

    The TTK on MAXes with launchers is quite long, longer than realistically practical by far. Rockets are better because they don't rely on a sustained two-way line of sight and are better for survival. Default dumbfires have a minimum TTK of 6.86s, assuming instant aiming (hipfire-only, ADSing will add time), instant projectile travel time, no repairs during reloads, and no delays or interruptions anywhere during the process. It's 5.7s for Decimators, given the same restrictions and assumptions of perfection. These numbers are incredibly generous, because they're literally only reloads. Yet both numbers give the MAX ample time to retreat, advance, repair, or kill the heavy. C4 must be delivered, and that takes a given amount of time varying of circumstance, of course.

    Anyone with anything in a bad position will die.

    In what ways can an infantry block fire than a MAX could not replicate?

    1. I've already went into detail previously on this thread, but to summarize AV grenades aren't terribly common or useful beyond MAXes, only exist on said heavies at best, and on top of that require a specific launcher to work. Missing with either the grenade or launcher or simply being killed before both can be applied obviously prevents the kill. And of course, the MAX can be revived.

    2. Being flanked is a bad situation for everything. Being C4'd is a bad situation for everything. C4 is threat number one for (almost) everything! It also obviously requires close range along the X & Z axis, which can be quite difficult on a dynamic battlefield against an opponent who is deadlier the closer the player gets to it.

    3. Constant when faced with larger numbers of enemy infantry, because in a 1v1 is anything but constant. To the point where small arms are a legitimate threat, it's an issue of many verses one rather than the independent small arms.

    (MAXes have more down time than heavies because of their long repair times as opposed to the instant or less than a second healing and will spend more time outside of combat. They also "siphon" kills off their guns when one gets the kill and the other doesn't.)

    I'm more recalling the innumerable situations where a MAX is pulled in a small fight, entirely without support. If heavies were always better, this shouldn't happen. MAXes can support themselves as well.

    Well, ish. I personally frown upon C4 as a super grenade unless it's killing some oblivious farmer somewhere. Tossing it through doorways or over walls for cheap easy kills is not good and is poor sportsmanship. So for the "legitimate" uses, it's fairly situational compared to other equipment like medsticks. Medsticks are useful almost every life and if used "properly" they don't negatively impact the fun of others.

    Yeah? Tell that to medic me, guardian of the incontinent blueberries, and and destroyer of my KDR and patience. A medic without C4 even with some allies doesn't stand a chance at all. Not fun, not good gameplay. And that's assuming the player has a good gun! What if a heavy has only a lock-on and an MKV? MAXes just have every advantage.

    Sure, no incredible, amazing, l33t Pro HAs chain-headshoting the MAX from across the base. But I didn't really look that hard to find it and it's quite recent with the least-adjusted stock MAX. Regardless though, my main point is that even a good heavy with actual upgrades doesn't go on a 35 killstreak even with those dorks.

    The MAX did very well with one of the worst possible loadouts.

    Salty salty, eh?

    As above, a good heavy with proper equipment couldn't do this. The video you link is very old, the player is mostly in no real danger, and gets some quite frankly suspicious kills with how the bullets fly. Old, like I said.

    No, you simply assert "MAXes are bad and should be good because they cause 450 nanites" without arguing anything more. You're turning into the Col. Chingles of MAXes. I shouldn't have a voice, while you just ignore arguments you can't refute?

    "Pricey" and "exotic," don't make me laugh.
  7. Liewec123

    No you shouldn't be in this discussion.
    This is about max balance, we don't need the opinion of an idiot
    who says they're OP because you refuse to use any of the many counters.
    Ofcourse there OP to you, the rest of us with braincells have no trouble.

    And what arguments? We have the opinions of an idiot who won't run counters,
    That refutes itself.

    The rest of us shoot it with a rocket launcher and laugh at the free certs we "earned"
    You go "herpderp! My pistol won't kill it! Maxes OP!"

    Try the God damn counters before you talk about the state of balance, idiot.
  8. Demigan

    If you do, focus on making it fun for both parties, not just the MAX.
    for example, C4 baseline resistance where 1C4 leaves the MAX with 10% health is a plenty good start. The MAX has some chance of survival while the C4 thrower has a good chance to take out the MAX afterwards.

    You should also focus on making the MAX independent. A pocket engi should not be a minimum requirement to get the nanite cost out of the MAX, and it should also not create scenario's where the MAX can stop entire platoons just because he's supported. At least, not significantly more than its baseline infantry would.

    I do have to comment on "costless" infantry. 50 resources takes 1 minute of time to accumulate. An infantry death takes 7 to 10 seconds+the return trip to where you were killed. Its not as if infantry deaths are inconsequential, just like a MAX being revived also takes valuable time unless a pocket Medic is on hand.
  9. Campagne

    The hypocrite that you are!

    I give detailed arguments and explanations of my opinions and positions, you pretend not to see them and make baseless assumptions at attempts at petty insult. You say I shouldn't be in the discussion purely because I don't agree with you.

    Where have I ever said I've never even tried these things? When I see a MAX if I have one my launcher is the first thing I pull out when I don't have C4 instead. But just like an AA lock-on not doing anything to most air attacking me, they're not going to solve the problem every time purely by virtue of one player choosing a more competitive unit.

    For shame, man. Shame! Shame!
  10. JibbaJabba

    The game would be worse overall if maxes were buffed.
    It would be diminished but better overall if they were removed entirely.
    They are a crutch for new players. A tool for @55shole veterans, and imbalanced when used properly with teamwork.
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  11. Somentine

    lol no @ op
  12. Ziggurat8

    MAX's are only weak in solo operations. You get 3 or 4 MAX's a couple of Engineers and a couple of Medics and you've got a pretty much unstoppable force.

    If you make MAX's stronger it means coordinated groups will just abuse them even more. Yes, as a solo zhitter MAX's are free kills. That doesnt make them crappy.

    The right tool for the job. MAX is an awesome but very specific tool. When you use it correctly it's a symphony of destruction. Use it poorly and, yup, you're out of 450 nanites.
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