[Suggestion] MAX shotgun overnerf has stayed for too long

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Clipped!, Aug 4, 2019.

  1. Clipped!

    I'm officially gods damn tired of MAX shotguns being significantly worse than a standard shotgun when attacking a MAX. Increasing magazine does nothing when you have no stopping power, and having equal dps within the same maximum damage range but much greater damage falloff severity for no tradeoff whatsoever is legitimately infuriatingly stupid. You wouldn't call that a balanced or viable gun if it were a faction gun variant, aka less damage per round for more fire rate, or vice versa, let alone something you'd consider spending certs on after auraxing your first gun.

    There are multiple threads here on the daybreak forums about how the changes from 3/20/19 were not ok or balanced at all. You can find links to those threads on reddit at: https://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/c60cwx/urgently_needed_adjustments_for_ps2_balance/

    There are more than plenty of people who are very tired of and are still very unhappy to angry at a clear case of one or more of the following: developer bias, lack of common sense, loss of logic, and failure to properly address balance issues.

    If you are one of these people, please visit the following post on the PS2 reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/cm2hw9/max_shotgun_overnerf_reversal/

    And for those thinking that NC's MAX shotguns are currently just fine, you need to take a good long look at the math and logic from the threads here on the forums.
    • Up x 1
  2. Hegeteus

    Logic doesn't apply here. Every faction has something that was overnerfed and has stayed that way for a long time, but instead of uniting under common cause people only want to rub their enemy factioners' wounds with salt. I'd just wish to see more balance decisions being made so that things don't stay the way they are forever, whether they're too good or bad.
  3. adamts01

    You're max isn't bad at all. You're just used to your crutch.
    • Up x 1
  4. Campagne

    I'm pretty sure it's the objective worst.
    • Up x 1
  5. Trillsiker

    Hmmm considering it has been years that CBG think this is logic to have a berserker ability for the vs zoe max that deals 10% more while you take 20% more, i wouldn't bet on logic from DBG.
    No wonder why nobody plays the damn thing, it just make absolulty no sense to pick it and no sense in a game design perspective.
  6. Demigan

    The difference is that the VS MAX is still more than viable without ZOE. The NC MAX has its literal damage output nerfed. Normally a shotgun sacrifices range for a CQC advantage but since it has the same DPS in its ideal range and an unlikely chance for a OHK to actually have an advantage (only for 2 weapon variants) the shotguns are a direct downgrade. Why take a weapon with the same DPS but less effective range and less accuracy and more RNG than the other two MAX's?

    Except that the stats that caused the NC MAX to be nerfed in the first place show the NC MAX performing at half the other two MAX's during prime time most of the time. So the NC MAX definitely is overnerfed and is the opposite of a crutch its a lame leg and you are at a marathon while people say "hey but the first few meters you'll be just as fast as the other two runners... assuming you run straight enough".
    • Up x 2
  7. Skraggz

    While I agree that it is nice to know its not instant death anymore to a NC max, I will agree that they need more rounds per mag. I think the damage is in a nice spot, Just feels bad to shoot off 8 rounds and have to reload, when it took 2-3 rounds to kill an infantry, let alone another max who has 50+ rounds before reload and is gonna clip for a little more damage.

    In my opinion at least, and I don't play NC... there is room for tweaking, and not on the damage side of things.

    Edit- To touch on what Demi said, add range as well because NC is mainly a CQC max and the can't even excel at that atm.
    • Up x 3
  8. Liewec123

    While I applaud a TR main recognising that something needs to be done,
    I greatly disagree that "the damage is in a nice spot" and that extra ammo is what we need,

    I feel like the "buffs" we've seen (giving each shotguns a few extra rounds) were more trolling than intended to be buffs.
    Like the higher-ups saw the performance stats and forced Wrel to buff, so he gives them an extra round...
    And then when the max is still showing to perform far worse they force him again...
    So he gives them another extra round....
    (This is most likely just tinfoil hat stuff, and the actual reason is just DBGs utter incompetence)

    Its a shotgun, that means wide pellet spread and hilariously terrible damage drop off,
    They are designed to be far worse from across the room than TR and VS,
    and that was fine when NC would kick butt within their tiny range.
    But now they have similar CQC DPS to TR and VS but with vastly less range.

    The only way to balance it would either be:
    by giving NC similar range and sustained fire to TR and VS
    (which thematically would be moronic, so I fully expect this would be the option that they pick!)
    Basically removing all faction flavour and making bland balance, same dps, same range, same sustain.
    Giving NC back their CQC edge, I'm not saying oneshots,
    but they really need to have a noticeable edge in cqc for how utterly useless they are at range compared to TR and VS.
    • Up x 1
  9. Demigan

    The NC are supposed to be synonymous with two things: Lots of firepower and experimental weapons/gadgets. Since we aren't allowed to have more firepower in CQC with a weapon that is supposed to have more firepower in CQC we need to have more gadgety stuff on them.

    For example different ammo types. Maybe Dragonbreath ammo that sets people on fire is now an option since we have the Thumper grenades that can do the same? That would reward ranged shots by weakening the opposition on the approach but punish the player for shorter ranged combat where some of the direct damage is converted into the fire DOT.

    Bouncing pellets would be nice. Since the pellets have a high damage degradation and high spread anyway it wouldn't deal much damage by the time it's bounced and people who get caught in a hail of shells bounced around a corner would also be close enough to actually turn that same corner. But in case that's not enough the heavy damage degradation could be started the moment it bounces off to limit the damage potential of bounced shells.

    Effects on hit. Let's say that the flinch caused by multiple shotgun pellets hitting in quick succession causes a larger flinch than normal weapons and could also forcibly increase the COF of the victim. A small burst of concussion effect, say the player moves at 90% of it's normal speed for 2 seconds if it's hit by one full hit of a single arm, could also support the CQC combat of the NC MAX without directly upping it's damage potential.

    More effects on hit: Shockwave ammo. When it hits it'll push the enemy away. This ability is a mixed bag. On one hand you would be perfect at stopping enemies trying to pass through a chokepoint, on the other hand you would also be pushing enemies out of your short effective range rather quickly.

    I would also be in favor of cluster-slugs. You fire all your pellets in a single slug but at slower velocity and more drop. If it hits it'll deal a relatively low amount of damage, say 200 damage per slug (that's lower than the Mattock's 3 pellets per arm). However the key would be to allow the player to detonate this slug and cause the shotgun pattern from the point of the slug's position. This would allow the player to increase the range but would require them the skill to detonate in time or deal less damage with a slow slug that has a lot of drop. It would also artificially decrease the DPS as you would want to have only one salvo of pellets in the air at any time.
    • Up x 1
  10. Skraggz

    The guns dont need to insta gib in order to be strong and feel like they belong. More sustainability would make the max feel better I am sure, also their short range is a bit of a bummer. I'm all for buffs for NC but i think it should be incremental and not starting with damage.

    Pssssst- i play vs exclusively.
    • Up x 1
  11. Pacster3

    Sure it needs instagib again. That's what it made OP before...and that's what it needs again...to be "balanced"...at leats if you listen to Demigan and Liewec...who are famous for being biased NC players(demigan is still going to tell you that the NC MAX was the weakest of them BEFORE the nerf...and that the vanguard is actually the by far worst tank and the shield is rather a nerf than a buff). ;-)
  12. Liewec123

    i did say that i wasn't asking for oneshots ;)
    and if not damage then what?

    currently compared to TR and VS we have similar CQC damage, far less range, far less sustain.
    even if we gave NC the same sustained fire as TR and VS we'd still have a weapon with similar cqc dps but far less range.
    increased sustain isn't the answer,

    and as i said, if they increased both the range AND the sustained fire to match TR and VS,
    we'd have balance, but it would be moronic, having a shotgun that operates the same as rapid fire weapons.
    (and also remove faction flavour, we've had enough homogenisation imho!)

    but if they'd keep the terrible range, less sustain, but more cqc damage, that is asymmetrical balance
    and also make sense, shotguns doing better in CQC than longer range rapid fire weapons, but far worse at range.
    • Up x 2
  13. Demigan

    The problem is that you could make the magazine as large as the entire ammo capacity, it wouldn't make the NC MAX any better than the VS and TR MAX's. The lack of reload is good, but if you still can at best only equal the other two MAX's in your ideal range if RNG (pelletspread) is with you and are worse off at all other ranges due to damage falloff... There just isn't enough advantage in having more magazine size anymore.

    Shotguns sacrifice range and accuracy for CQC firepower. But the NC MAX only sacrifices range and accuracy with nothing in return. The NC MAX needs something special to make them worth picking and if better CQC damage is out we need other traits. Accuracy is out because it's shotguns, Magazine size could help but without the DPS to actually push this advantage it's not useful, Reload speed is the same as magazine size, headshot multipliers are too much hit&miss due to RNG and would bring back OHK's that people hate even if it's a skillful point-blank shot... So that leaves just RPM and muzzle velocity of the basic stats. RPM is out because it boosts firepower and muzzle velocity isn't going to help much on an inaccurate CQC weapon even if it was hitscan.

    And now we are left with just giving the ammunition and the MAX suit itself special traits to both survive longer and fight harder. The NC Shield seems to fit that bill but even if it were an instant invulnerability until you were done reloading it would basically function as a faster reload/larger magazine which is still not going to boost the CQC power of the MAX. Ofcourse the shield takes time to pull up and put down in which you are still vulnerable so it's worse than a faster reload. Improving the MAX suit itself would cause the VS and TR to ask for new MAX toys as well and would defeat the purpose...

    So we can only improve the ammo with special traits.
    • Up x 1
  14. Demigan

    I smell a stinking troll. Oh it's Pacter! What a surprise.

    Can you point to any post since the nerf where I asked for the OHK ability back? No? Because it's constantly claimed by you and not by me? I can't remember Liewec asking for OHK's as well. We might ask for better range, less RNG, better RPM to actually have an advantage in CQC, but I don't think either of us directly asked "hey let's get the old NC MAX back". Hell even with the old NC MAX i've always proposed changes in order to make it more fun for everybody. Give the other two MAX's access to shotguns as well to shut them up for example. Ofcourse you can't have me be reasonable as you don't have anything of substance and can only try to make a case by making your opposition look bad.

    Just look at my first post about the NC MAX nerf. I said I didn't mind the change but was surprised the NC MAX didn't get anything in return. No range, no special abilities, nothing to compensate for the fact that they sacrifice range and accuracy for a CQC damage improvement that wasn't there anymore. That's what I said then, that's what I'm still saying now.
    • Up x 2
  15. Skraggz

    Look, I love faction flavor I am just proposing slow fixing to get it where it needs rather then these wild swings that most devs like to take. Personally I'd like to stay away from the damage aspect, maybe tighten the pellet pattern or some of your unique suggestions.
    • Up x 1
  16. Liewec123

    last time we spoke i was playing TR, remember? when VS were dominating an alert with 70% victory and NC were at about 16%?
    and even then you were still ademant that NC are so OP and the max with the ticklecannons is perfectly fine,

    before that i remember you saying "lets see how it does on live!" even though the stats clearly showed it would suck,
    and now here we are, it sucks, and you dont want to buff it, got any more excuses for why it should have similar cqc damage to TR and VS with far less sustained fire and far less range?
    • Up x 2
  17. Demigan

    They should have done that to start with. Instead they decided "hey let's first remove slugs, then we hammer their damage output and as coup de grace we reduce their RPM".

    Again since they have this massive hate for anything that specializes into something other than accurate short to midrange headshots I'm not going to ask for any damage upgrade, I'm asking for the only thing left to us: Different ammo types to set the MAX apart. And my proposed ammo types so far are pretty mild.
    An ammo type that trades in direct damage for some fire DOT so that they can whittle away enemy health at range? Sounds incredibly fair to me!
    An ammo type that can shoot around corners? It's not like it's going to make it kill any faster and gives the NC MAX one, maaaybe two more highly inaccurate and damage degraded shots into an enemy before they round the corner... Assuming they don't just back off and recharge. Ofcourse since your magazine size and ammo pool is limited you can't just spam them around corners.
    An ammo type that can push people away? Double edged sword that can be as much a blessing as a curse.
    Cluster-slugs? You'd better have some skills or you'll be having a terrible DPS anyway, besides that you would be nerfing your RPM and with it your DPS the farther you try to shoot them.
    • Up x 2
  18. adamts01

    If the NC Max was 90° off course this time last year, it's maybe 5° off course the other way right now. It's not that bad. If it's performing half as well as the other maxes, that's due to NC still treating it like their old OP crutch. Meanwhile, TR and VS have had years to get used to what NC is just now experiencing. If it needs a few more rounds, then fine. If its damage falloff is a little too sever, ok. But it's very, very close to being right where it needs to be. But honestly, I'd rather see VS and TR tuned down to match NC.
  19. Skraggz

    Im curious what NC max stats look like now that they have had bit of time to build up. Bet it's very telling.
  20. JibbaJabba

    The game is better the way it is now.

    NC is now on the bottom, not the top. However the gap between NC and the other factions is **smaller than what it was before**.

    They had to lop the DPS in HALF and it was still on-par with the VS and TR. That's how bad it was. NC thinks they are overnerfed but they are way less nerfed than the TR/VS were before.

    Sorry, but I think NC just needs to adjust. And stop whining. My God.