MAX Balance Part 4: Everything AI.

Discussion in 'MAX' started by Chewy102, Jul 5, 2013.

  1. Liewec123

    i thought the guy that replied to you had replied to a year old post, i was amused and surprised to see that you typed THAT today...
    i don't even know where to begin,
    the fact that you say maxes need KA to fight NC max? -maxes need KA.- if you don't have KA you're not playing max right.

    i posted some comparisons between Onslaughts and hacksaws above to another guy who must be playing whatever game you are,
    i'll post them again here.

    Onlaughts V Hacksaws
    2% higher DPS,
    42% faster reloads,
    380% more sustained fire,
    1000% larger magazines.
    and they both share the same TTK within 10m (0.14 seconds)

    as to "the only max with LA counters" bulls%%t. ZoE maxes are practically immune to c4 since they can trot out of the blast radius in the time it takes to throw and detonate, and they can easily dodge rockets.

    and when it comes to TTK a max?
    i'll do each test at 10m and i'll do it 4 times to get an average.

    NC Hacksaws (i'll even throw in the 1000 cert extended just so its competitive)
    3.0, 2.1, 2.6, 2.6 = average of 2.57 secs TTK

    TR Onslaughts
    5.0, 4.3, 4.8, 5.1 = average of 4.8 secs TTK

    ZoE Nebulas
    3.5, 3.7, 3.4, 3.5 = average of 3.52 secs TTK

    so your great and fearful ultimately awesome god of CqC will kill a none KA max a mere 1 second faster than a ZoE or 2 seconds faster than a TR with onslaughts if you land every pellet of every shot.
    is a 2 second faster TTK (under prefect conditions) really worth all of the severe penalties i listed above?

    TL;DR NC max fail in comparison to TR/VS in every single aspect except for a slightly quicker TTK when landing every pellet of every shot against none moving, none KA maxes, within 10m...(because that happens a lot)
    • Up x 1
  2. Leonidas423

    Actually, if you look four posts above you...

    A post that Chewy made before you made this post destroyed this post without him even knowing that it will destroy your post. Your mind just got blown.

    And to your "THEY DESTROY MAXES MUCH FASTER THEN OTHER MAXES", sure, on paper it may look that way (which it doesn't). But when are you ever, ever going to get into a position where you are able to land every single pellet shot on a enemy MAX, and when that MAX doesn't have kinetic armor? Because it's downright impossible for an NC MAX to kill another MAX with KA 5 unless he gets with >1m of said MAX and unloads into his/her head. Which, assuming the NC MAX has Aegis Shield, will never, ever, ever, ever, ever happen. Ever. The one exception I can think of is door camping, and even then, the other MAX will usually move out of range before you can react.
  3. Chewy102

    How did you get a TTK of 2.57 with extended mag Hacksaws at 10m? The tests I used for the video I based my math on all 3 of them used over 20 shells to kill. 28, 24, and 24 with an average of 25.33 and that is just the tests I posted and there was more I didn't upload from them being ruined by other players or the likes that had more of those shell counts. Accounting for extended mags and with a shell to kill count of 25 the 10M TTK would be 7.59. A 4 second long reload reload time plus 3.59 seconds to fire 25 shells at a ROF of 209. Even if you did a 3.2 short reload the TTK would be 6.79 at 10m.

    My data for the Onslaught and Nebula also come out to being much longer at 5.12 for TR and 4.92 for VS. Your using ZOE makes it so I can't compare it to my data but it's not the same for the Onslaught. I have 3 tests at 10m and their shot to kill are 80, 84, and 88 with and average or 84. Fire time for 84 shots at a ROF of 492 with dual weapons should be 5.12.

    This is odd. I wonder why the numbers are so far from each other.
  4. Liewec123

    i just tested them today, focusing on upper body with all 3 factions
  5. Chewy102

    Well if I ****** up with my tests then it ruins this entire thread. To get a TTK of 2.57 you needed to kill a MAX with 17.88 (18) shells. I have an average shell count at 25 for 10m Hacksaw one test went to 28, you have a 18 shell kill at the same range doing the same test. Having extended mags also keep you at maxed COF longer, mine without extended mags needed to reload and that reset the COF 2 times! That alone should have done something to help my shell count from tighter spreads but you're the one with lower shell counts, 3 of them. This is a ******* HUGE problem for me!

    If this pans out to me using bad data then I have nothing to stand on. If I ****** the Hacksaw tests, who knows what else I did wrong. This entire thread will be useless until I find out what the hell is going on. Im watching my videos again and can't see if I ****** what should be a simple test up. A 7 shell gap between you numbers and mine, to much and I need to know how. 1-2 shells, maybe 3, I can live with from the randomness of pellet spread and COF but 7 is to ******* much!

    You certain that you used Hacksaws and not Mattocks? I don't want to sound like an *** but an extended mag TTK of 2.57 fits perfectly with my Mattock data at 10m. At 10m my average was 15.33 shells, a TTK of 2.57 comes out to 15.42 shells fired.
  6. Liewec123


    i could have gotten freakishly lucky headshots on all 4 tests, but i was definately using extended hacksaws, but in any case, all this means is a 1s faster TTK within 10m, with a collosal heap of negative side effects that overwhelm that tiny TTK lead.
    we're still by far the worst max
  7. Chewy102

    I think I found what is going on. I just did some fast VR tests and it shown me something that explains why you have a 18 shell count and I have a 25 shell count at 10m.

    One of us was shooting from 9.6m and the other was shooting at 10.4m. The game rounds distance and both cases would have shown a flat 10m from the waypoint if we both had the waypoint dead on the MAX. I placed the way point on a MAXes foot (first try to :p) and just tapped W and S as softly as I could to get the moment the waypoint shown 10 and the moment just before going to 11. I found both of our TTK numbers doing that with extended mag Hacksaws. 1 ******* meter ups the shell count that much that. ONE!

    This is amazing. A single meter is enough to up the shell count that much. A single TAP of a button can cost you a fight. It shows even more of how shotguns can't **** around with range. A single meter almost ruined my entire set of work. FML.
  8. Chewy102

    Bringing this back to the front page. Just under a month should be long enough of a wait for a bump.
  9. KnightCole

    TR Dual Mutilator MAX <3

    Its so much fun and like 30 more certs imma jack it up with Dual Exmags, 150 rounds per gun......delicious.
  10. Chewy102

    Just a 20 day necro this time. Scrap off the mold and it's still good.
  11. DeadliestMoon

    Let's wait and see what the devs have planned for the remaining weapons that are going to be touch upon with the Balance Pass.
  12. Chewy102

    It hasn't happened yet though. Also we don't know if MAX AI weapons will be touched at all. The only things I read about so far is that MAX AV weapons will be tuned to be less effective at AI. That isn't going to help AI weapon balance at all.
  13. Chewy102

    Has it been 6 months since I made this topic?
  14. Dimachaerus

    This really needs to be kept on the front page. We had our "class revamp" and it basically consisted of the Devs giving usthree borked abilities, and completely ignoring the GLARING problems all three empires have.

    Even the devs admitted they ****** up our revamp, and then proceeded to follow it with nerfs. I REALLY wanted to be a max specialist in ps2, I really did, and I gave it my all, but **** it, I'm LA now. C4 fairy for life!
  15. Chewy102

    Id love to main as a MAX as well. The only reason I don't use my MAX more is the fact that I am a pure NC player. Yes I have a TR and VS alt but I never used them at all but for these tests. They just sit there growing certs from passive gain, they would be BR 1 still if not for alerts ending while I was doing tests.

    It isn't that I don't like TR or VS, it's just that they do not fit my needs in a game. If the story isn't to my liking then I don't play that game and both TR and VS lore don't work for me. I main as a pure support or MAX. It is all about me playing the part of that soldier and getting into the role. That is my fun. Im the type of guy that, thanks to respawning being a thing in the lore, would willingly take a bullet to help anyone I could. Medic under fire keeping others alive, Engi doing ammo runs or at the side of a vehicle while it is getting shelled, or as a MAX tanking all the damage he can so that the next guy doesn't have to.

    That playsytle works in most games, it just doesn't work with some weapon types. I hate shotguns, said that many times and will say it many more. You will never be versatile with a shotgun and if you're not flexible enough to adapt on the fly then you can't be a support player. PS1 had choke modes for NC MAXes so that they could flex when needed, SOE removed that in favor of selling more weapons at that cost. Having more weapons works better for HMGs from then being universal weapons to start with.

    2 things would fix this ENTIRE debate. Both aren't needed but either will do the job.

    1- NS MAX weapons. 2 weapons, a shotgun and HMG. Bam. No more complaints from me about how shotguns compare to HMG. Everone gets both a CQC and a ranged option with these being FAR less work to balance than adding 3 ES weapons that need to be tuned to ES MAX abilities. Just make all NS MAX weapons not work with ES abilities.

    2- Add a fire mode to all MAXes. Can't say what TR or VS would get, but give NC MAXes use of 2 choke modes. Though I have no idea how to balance this with abilities
  16. Evregade

    I know bringing up the first game is such taboo on the forums. But as mentioned in the above post, NC maxes were given a better balance with the other factions maxes by giving the Scattercannon (we just had the one weapon in Planetside) 3 choke modes.

    At present all NC maxes are running around in mode 1 - Low accuracy, high rate of fire.

    You could toggle to mode 2, an even balance between accuracy/RoF (good to about 15-20m) [Approx 1/2 the RoF of mode 1]

    Or mode 3, with low RoF but highly accurate (tight spread), which was good to about 40m. [Approx 1/3 the RoF of mode 1]

    This would very simply align PS2 NC maxes with the other empires as you just toggle to the choke you need to hit your target.

    Of course, this would essentially mean the removal of slug ammo.

    -----

    In response to the above post. The TR and VS fire modes could also be related to the original game (though the VS one would probbly aggravate people)

    TR were able to toggle a temporary boost in rate of fire (less than anchoring) and minor boost in accuracy.

    VS could toggle between Anti-Infantry and Anti-Armor modes on their anti-infantry guns. The Quasar was by no means a tank killer, but it could deal damage (roughly equal to what it currently deals to the harasser), and was more dangerous against light vehicles (harasser, flash) This would however give VS the only AI maxes that can deal damage to tanks, and would most likely be viewed quite negatively by everyone who isn't purple.
  17. Chewy102


    My thinking is that a fire mode MUST come with a heavy counter. Tighter choke = crap ROF. I'll agree that making the TR fire mode higher ROF but Id think it would need a counter of crap COF or massive recoil. Fits their DAKKA style.

    Giving the VS AV ammo? No thank you. Not only would that be unfair, that would be broken by making VS MAXes the only ones able to do anything they wish on the fly. Worked in PS1 from any infantry able to have both AP and AV ammo at once. I was thinking of extra damage at the cost of using more ammo and doing self damage, that that's ZOE more or less. Maybe if the VS fire mode let them not need to reload at the cost of self damage as the weapons overheat.
  18. Chewy102

    NEWS! The patch did some stat changes to MAX AI weapons. They are.

    VS MAX Changes
    • Blueshift
      • Reducing reload speeds to match damage output of the other MAXes
        • Long reload from 2.7 to 2.8 seconds
        • Short reload from 2.0 to 2.3 seconds
    • Nebula
      • Reducing short reload speed to match damage output of the other MAXes
        • Short reload from 2.15 to 2.3 seconds
    • Cosmos
      • Improving the damage output over time
        • Long reload from 3.2 to 3.1 seconds
        • Short reload from 2.4 to 2.1 seconds

    TR MAX Changes
    • M6 Onslaught
      • Increasing reload times to better match damage output when compared to pother MAXes
        • Long reload from 2.8 to 3.0 seconds
        • Short reload from 2.2 to 2.5 seconds
    • M2 Mutilator
      • Improving short reload to better match damage output when compared to pother MAXes
        • Short reload from 2.9 to 2.4 seconds

    NC MAX AI Changes
    • Scattercannon
      • Very small short reload speed increase to get the damage output to match the other NC MAX weapons
        • Short reload from 3.0 to 2.945 seconds
    • Mattock
      • Increased range before damage starts scaling to match shotgun standard
        • Max damage range increased from 10 to 12



    Though most of them are just reload times, they still need new math and make this thread useless. Mattocks will need whole new tests and math for their change in damage drop range now starting at 12m instead of 10m. Looks like I have something to do tomorrow if I don't just burn it out tonight.
  19. Ceskaz

    Scattercannon got a 0.055 sec reduction of short reloaad !!! amazing \o/ ... Won't change much... Good for Mattock.
  20. Chewy102

    A change is a change though. Even though .055 will never be noticed (an eye blink is .3-.4) but it effects the DPS and TTK numbers. All of the reload time changes wont need new tests and wont change anything but DPS and TTK numbers but for the tests that needed a reload (20m and up for TR and VS weapons). That only takes a change in the math and no new tests as there was no (known) COF, ROF, or damage changes to anything but Mattocks.

    Mattocks will need new tests. 0m and 10 tests should be the same as before but 15m and 20m will not from the weapons not doing the same damage thanks to the damage drop start point change.

    In any case this thread is now no longer needed and is outdated. I'll make a new one and link to this one for all of the stuff that didn't change so I don't have to redo everything. Shouldn't be long, just have to hope Youtube doesn't put me in processing hell. Iv been having some problems with video sights for a few weeks now. Can't figure out why some sites will take over 10 minutes to load a video (twitch) but some run nice with a chance to buffer (YT), but all streams never fail (twitch) and are butter smooth. Everything should be up to date and it is the same problem over both firefox and chrome.