VR gives us a view on perfect conditions. 1 v 1 without any type of outside effects like others adding damage, in fight repairs, use of cover, or anything that can change the outcome. Not the best data but tells a tale of even under perfect conditions NC MAXes fail to do anything but come in dead last in everything but one single case. ONE example out of 16 where NC MAXes can win in a perfectly fair fight, in ALL other cases there is zero chance in those conditions. It is a simple idea. If one can not do even under the best conditions then one can not do in near any condition. I could go on and ask for you to try and prove my data wrong and give more than opinions but Im not going to. It would be a waste of time to ask for something that will never happen. Your sig tells the truth, truth hurts sometimes. Problem is I have given my form of the truth and you attack me for it without giving your form of the truth. Looks to me that I am not the one that is hurt.
Neither am I given we're discussing a game and not anything really important. What goes on in game, where the TR MAX will not be able to keep damage output enough to prevent NC MAX from getting cover, unless for whatever reason the NC MAX has gone rbonkers and decided to stand in the open within the range where TR MAX AI weapons can keep a steady bit of damage, while keeping range from NC MAX. So yeah in the situation that the TR springs a trap on an NC MAX which is standing in the open, say for whatever reason,aimlessly trotting about on Indar seabed, the VR or staged fights can really be given as examples! Seriously, only morons pull a MAX where there isn't support, morons and really good auto repair NC, using charge and ZOE types and a rare few TR MAX. In game you will usually be running into whatever MAX types where the user of the MAX class has somewhat of a clue as to where they should stage their fight, if they don't, you'll wind up killing or not really being able to help the clown in question. Good NC MAX will be using whatever weapon in the situation that keeps him or her alive and not really staging any MAX on MAX unless properly supported. Good TR MAX will definitely have support in every occasion unless they like wasting their 300+ resources for laughs and giggles. Good TR MAX does lose, every time, when faced with a proper good NC MAX, unless the NC MAX is .. 1.AFK 2.Previously damaged and lacks a good engineer. 3. The NC MAX has gibbed his/her own engineer and has already pushed too far into a room where the TR MAX can assault at a safe distance and the TR MAX has his/her engineer.Which is a mistake that I have seen good NC MAX users do once in a while. Only way for the TR MAX to win is to keep that range, making it almost a stale mate. The thing to note here, is good, not rambo stupid soloist thinking that for some reason there should be a mini-game called 'MAX DUEL" where no-one else is around and it's in the vehicle bay of a tower and neither party is permitted to move once the shooting starts! By the way a person can't have their own form of truth, it's called an opinion and everything you or I have mentioned are theoretical or based on experiences in game, which I have loads of to recollect from. What you have put forth is still just an opinion given your control situation posted is not really what happens in game.Anyone who plays the game will see your control situation is near impossible to duplicate given it would only fit for one of the two parties being AFK, or the losing party to have some failure in being able to have team mates that will assist, repair and put damage onto opposing targets. Again thanks for showing how the VR control situation works though !
1- You don't understand the power of range. Forcing the NC MAX in cover to never come full out makes the NC MAX blind to any on the other side of said cover. NC MAXes are doormen, very weak to splash damage from grenades, rockets, and C4 even with flak armor when you can't close those doors. Also there is no way to avoid flashbangs or conc nades when you can't get away from said door or blind turn. TR and VS MAXes can stay a good 20m from any blind turn or door and still cover it and any other entrance/window that can be seen from a wider view more range gives. Also any MAX support is going to be near the MAX. MAX support near a blind turn or door is going to be more prone to being killed by splash than those a good 20m away. Ever wonder why people spam doors and windows with explosives? They are feeding on the infantry near them. NC MAX support needs to stay within that splash danger range, TR/VS MAX support don't have to get near it unless they want to. As for traps and ambushes. TR and VS MAXes are better for them as well. NC MAXes must be next to the entry point for the max possible damage and that limits the number of MAXes that can fit in the area and ups the odds being seen, heard (NC MAXes have loud footsteps), or felt out from prepping an entry with an explosive. TR/VS MAXes can hide anywhere in the room for an ambush or even wait in another room next to the ambush point and use windows. More room for more MAXes and lower odds of being seen, heard, or chipped from prep explosives within the room. Then we have ammo counts. NC MAXes must choose to attack infantry or MAXes first before a reload. They do not have the ammo for both unless there is only 2 infantry or less. TR/VS MAXes have the ammo to either focus on the MAXes and pepper infantry after, kill up to 8ish infantry in any room at will and then pepper the MAXes if needed, or just shower the room with lead and **** it up. NC gets only one option when entering a room, MAX or infantry. TR/VS get no option limits on what targets to fight when entering a room. 2- There are as many forms and versions of truth as there are people living. An opinion is something based on nothing but gut feelings. A truth is based on real data and all data can be read differently by each person. It isn't till a single truth is shared by many for it to become a fact. That is why we debate, to find the fact within a sea or truths. 3- MAXes are meant to fight other MAXes/vehicles or just **** the day of infantry. Like all vehicles, MAXes can only be pulled from a terminal and have costs as well as limits to their use. They should be better than infantry within reason and should be equal to a point to other MAXes. This is a game and balance is key, the most important thing one can say. Balance is plainly and simply ****** right now. The WDS alone is proof of that. I have been trying to show the problems of forcing one factions MAX to nothing but shotguns while the other 2 get HMGs since Beta. I have been debating MAXes for over a year now starting when I got in Beta. I know the "what if"s and how support can as well should be used. Your examples read to me as NC players are forced to "get good" within their limits while TR/VS MAXes can treat their MAXes as bigger badder infantry without having to think about adapting to any limits. NC MAXes, be smart play smart or you will do nothing. TR/VS MAXes, I see you I shoot you you die. That is what I see when reading what you typed. Thank you by the way for the bumps. I enjoy a debate and like that it gets me thinking, but you need to back up you claims if you want me to take this for real. That is all I ask.
I'll just put it as this. Every lousy player in this game thinks the other players gun is OP, until they bother to try out the other players side. Same goes for just about anything in this game. I play all three factions, I've played quite a few hours, I have a good grasp on what works and what doesn't work and also have seen people doing things I never thought would work and coming out with a mound of bodies and capable of helping the team while making that pile. Everything in this game breaks down to one thing, point defense and an NC excels at that while being able to move itself in offensive ways given the user, to mangle foes and keep that point clear of any intrusion, just as long as .. get this, there's team work. It can even assault, with those same shotguns, as long as the fight leads to distances that those weapons excel at. Your video isn't data, just as much as my testimony on what goes on in game isn't really proof of anything. Numbers of damage output don't account for anything, because the game isn't based off numbers, it's the strategy of use of the tools put in the hands of those using them at the time. I don't like your argument because it's based on a video that's unrealistic. You don't like my argument because you don't play my game and I'm not prone to recording game play, simply because to me, this game is horribly boring to watch someone play, thus recording and wasting the resources on my computer to edit videos for this game, is a waste. When I play NC, I can either roflestomp all enemies with the MAX, or, like in many cases because the NC MAX doesn't cater to my play style at times, get roflestomped. Yet I do see many a player out there with basic knowledge of how to work the NC MAX well and even some truly amazing players who would do a good service if they were to put out a HOW TO video and tips on how they work the NC MAX. The NC MAX, is amazing,just as the TR MAX and even more so, the most fun one of all, the ZOE MAX.
My only annoyance is for the basic level the of zoe gets the full speed benefit. I run zoe and its equivalent of giving full benefit of a max level perk. Even if it didn't have the damage buff the ability to move around has caused more damage avoided then any armor reduction has resulted from. sorry don't mean to derail and will delete this if you so want. Thanks for the data and I will post it on my outfits forums as a reference. Speaking of a play style I do find zoe more enjoyable to alleviating the one aspect of max play I don't enjoy and that's slow movement. same reason I think .75 ads weapons are a lot more powerful then people give them credit for movement adds so much effective health to a unit unless its point blank range.
I don't mind ZOE talk, it has the most effect on infantry fights than any other MAX ability. That speed boost removes the main drawback to using a MAX, being a big slow target. VS MAXes more or less become a Heavy 2.0 with ZOE on and they can use it at will. The reason I didn't account for the abilities was from not knowing how and it taking so much more work to do so. If I got the ZOE weapon data then I would have to get Lockdown weapon data and then account for a target MAX with ZOE on while also figuring out a target with the MAX Shield. On top of that I would have to account for kinetic armor for the stock MAX, ZOE, and Shield so that I wasn't half assing anything. VR can't change the targets and I wasn't going to ask someone to spend a many hours doing the tests in the test server. The lousy or bad players aren't to blame for mindless OP calls. Just the idiots that don't bother to learn anything. I agree that there is a lot of that talk going around but at least I have something to show that proves my claims instead of "It killed me for doing the same thing over and over again!". If videos are not your thing then show something else. I made the videos so that I had something to show exactly where I got my numbers. It wasn't spreadsheet stats that don't account for range, misses, target size, damage drop, and what not. I used real gameplay so that I didn't have to do all of that math and just let the game to that work for me. It isn't on a live server but it is real gameplay and that is exactly how those weapons will work. I even did each test 3 times at least so that I would remove lucky head shots from COF and as much player skill as I could. You say you play all 3 factions. Post the stat pages and show us your personal data. Wont show much but will be something and wouldn't take work on your part. If you are going to base your claims on your personal gameplay then show it. I can't debate if you refuse to show where you are coming from. You don't like my data? That's a good thing. If you liked it then there wouldn't be much to talk about. But to call my work not data is just stupid. Everything is data. You don't like it, find better. Can't find better, then it must be of worth from not being able to counter it. Unrealistic of live server play or not, this shows a base line of what the MAX AI weapons will do. The skilled will do better, the crap will do worse. I, no, NO ONE can account for what happens in live server play. Just one battle with 2 squads on each side has hundreds of thousands of variables that simply happen for just as many and more reasons. All we can do is understand what might happen and you can't know that without something to base off of. A bare bones demo of the basics is the start of everything. My work is that bare bones basics, the fundamentals, foundations, corner stone. Call it what you wish, but if this isn't balanced then nothing based on those basics will ever be. Im not demanding you to spend countless hours on something you see as pointless, just show SOMETHING that can give your claim merit. Anything will do for a start. I gave my proof, give yours. That is all I ask. A simple request but somehow one that damn near none bother with. If you read this as me getting mad then it's well that I kinda am from people that do not bother to back up what they say. Give your words merit, show me SOMETHING I can use. I can't hack your brain to see your thoughts and need something I can work with.
Damn, looks like I wont be getting a debate after all. Truth hurt a little to much is seems. (bad joke, I just had to. It was to easy to pass up)
It really comes down to not enough ammo in the NC MAXs magazine to finish the job. Its the only reason grinders perform better against other MAXs. Time to double ammo for NC MAX shotgun magazines. 16 round standard - 24 with extended mags Grinders 20 round default, 30 with extended mags
Another thing not considered even with NC MAX extended mags, you aren't necessarily running into an enemy max when you have full mags, whereas TR/VS are more likely to have enough ammo left and if not they also have a shorter reload.
Seeing how NC MAXes need to dip into a 3rd mag to kill another MAX meaning you need a reload even with dual weapons and that it takes well over half of of dual extended mags for a MAX. The odds of a NC MAX having the ammo needed to kill a MAX at any given time isn't that great with counting for extended mags, impossible for stock. Slugs needing 20 hits to kill a MAX at 0m lowers the odds even more for extended mags. TR and VS MAXes can kill another MAX with just over a 2nd mag on the other hand. So with dual weapons the odds of having the ammo to kill a MAX is rather good in stock, and almost certain with extended mags unless they don't bother to let go of the trigger. I didn't think about that till now. And I was thinking about doubling the NC MAXes mag size and it made me giggle to be honest. 12 shells per arm, 24 dual stock. That's a tad much Id think. It would be 32 shells with dual extended mags if it kept the same +4 they add now! 32 shells, my god would that be fun to have. A manic laugh is made in my head every time I think of having that much ammo. I would think making the mags 10 shells stock would be more fair. 20 for dual, 28 extended dual. You can't kill with a single weapon without reloading and if running dual it would take just over half of stock mag ammo. Sameish as TR and VS MAXes with extended mags on all 3 just giving more DAKA rather than being a forced "option". And I think everyone can agree more DAKA is good. it's been said. It seems NC MAXes have been balanced around having fully certed weapons while TR and VS MAXes have been balanced around stock weapons.
thats about the most generic, TR-esque response i've ever read. we could sit here and show you ALL of the stats already favour TR over NC under perfect conditions, actually lets have an example! Onlaughts V Hacksaws 2% higher DPS, 42% faster reloads, 380% more sustained fire, 1000% larger magazines. and they both share the same TTK within 10m (0.14 seconds) we could then point out that yes, you will never actually have perfect conditions while fighting players ADADing, and then we could ask you who you think will suffer the most from missing a shot under imperfect conditions, the guy with 6 rounds or the guy with 60? but lets face it, you won't accept any evidence we throw your way, because the truth hurts.
No in this case it's the theory doesn't actually pan out when a skilled player actually is using the NC weaponry.
Seems you missed the point entirely. They don't destroy troops much faster than other MAXes. THEY DESTROY MAXES MUCH FASTER THAN OTHER MAXES. They are like a class above the other MAXes in close range battles, which is where everything ends up, around control points, spawns and such. The TTK against other MAXes isn't even in your silly post. NC MAXes are the only feared MAXes, they swat off LAs easier (spread), they destroy enemy MAXes faster. They are basically able to counter what is supposed to be the counters to MAX units! THAT is why they are OP.
Im having a hard time thinking you read the post you quoted. For one I don't care about killing infantry faster, they are MAXes and should beat infantry in a straight fight and they do, all of them. Another thing is I DID use TTKs for MAX v MAX, that is the only TTK numbers I used and if you want to see how I got those numbers use the links I gave in the OP. Also control points are not as small as you think. Only 1 cap point I can think of is in a room that is smaller than the 15m hard limit NC MAXes have (even with dual extended mags) for MAX fights. That point being the 2nd floor of a tower and often just 1 of 3 with the other 2 in other buildings across the entire base. Need I remind you just how short 15m is? That is 15m in game. The range where even with dual extended Mattocks NC MAXes will not have a chance in a fair MAX fight and will have problems with more than 2 infantry at a time. Less so in live gameplay when there is an untold amount of chaos going on. Even within a tower a simple explosive such as grenades or rockets can be bounced and splashed past any door NC MAXes are holding and have it take near full effect on said MAXes, maybe even their support. Just putting C4 ON the door frame can do a lot of harm to NC MAXes seeing how close we have to hug the damned things if we want to keep players out. Do you mind telling me your point? I don't see how you are saying that if you read the thread or just the post you quoted. I might just be reading your post wrong but if you didn't bother to read even the OP then I really have no reason to bother reading your posts. If I did read your post wrong then please explain a bit and tell me what you think I am missing or not understanding.
Shields and negate fears of distance in those situations. Non NC MAXes have to spec Kinetic Armour to engage NC MAXes and hope for a chance, which leaves them massively more vulnerable to explosives, while NC are free to keep Flak on. The benefits stack up hard. In their ideal range NC MAXes are far more devastating than any opponent MAX is in theirs; which conveniently for NC happens to be the range that is most useful in the most crucial arena of the game around generators, spawn rooms, scus and capture points.
The shield does not help with closing the distance needed. It'll let you walk up to a locked down TR MAX but that's only due to it being locked into place. The shield bleeds damage, I have it maxed out and know what it can do. It only stops what the enemy wants it to stop. Where you have the shield may not be where the enemy sees the shield and that is all that matters with client side hit detection. He can aim for your feet or head/shoulder depending how you aim the shield and it only takes a short number of steps to the side to get a clear shot. Also the shield forces you to move at walk speed where anything but another walking MAX can move much faster even while backpedaling. Sprint and the NC MAX will never have the chance to get within 10m unless it's a blind turn. Or just charge and get up to 30m of freedom to remove that shield. 2-3 infantry can take out a maxed out shield with pure small arms before the MAX can walk across a normal room. AV weapons do massive numbers to it as well. The shield isn't all bad though. I LOVE that I can just eat 3 bricks of C4 and it puts me to laughter tanking a freaking tank. It is in all of my loadouts and I never bother with charge. But it has limits with being slow and having no way to fend for yourself. Lockdown may lock you in place and can't turn but you can overcome that with positioning and support, but the shield will always be linked to the enemies skill not yours. As for armors. TR and VS MAXes can use what ever one they want, same for NC MAXes. If anything Id say NC MAXes are forced to use flak more often from being forced to stay within explosive range of doors and using kinetic puts them at a disadvantage overall. TR and VS MAXes have more than enough range to be anywhere in a room to cover any entry they want and with ammo to spare to boot. Far outside of C4 range, rockets take time to aim, and if it is a big fight grenades can bounce off of anyone to make them hard as hell to use so flak isn't needed but for more open areas. Then if you use kinetic that just makes small arms easy to shrug off long enough to clear rooms of infantry and make NC MAXes almost a joke. Iv seen NUC do it many times to know that TR MAXes have no fear of NC MAXes if they know to stay more than 10m away. Don't hug them, that simple. The NC MAXes ideal range is UNDER 10m. That video I posted shows 15m and he can't even see where he is going. It's in a bio-lab as well. That place is said to be NC MAX breading grounds and is FILLED with places NC MAXes can not go from range limits. TR and VS MAXes ideal ranges are around 30m-40m for infantry and 20m for MAXes. Granted this is from them having HMGs and NC MAXes having shotguns but NC MAXes LOST their short range power to make all 3 damn near equal in what should be a shotguns ideal range. My data shows that without certs the NC MAX just doesn't have an ideal range anymore and with certs its ideal range is, maybe, 8m-10m against MAXes for just 3 weapons. Hacksaws need to be around 5m for ideal MAX range. An ideal infantry range is some where between 10m-20m depending on the weapon. Shotguns deal with inches, HMGs deal in meters. That would be fair if shotguns ruled CQC, but they don't anymore and haven't for a long time now.
